Renth
Smash Hero
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08LMZ9ezSz0&list=PLRZgx2SiH09uN4_HuYmEbwjwrkxqFSTd4
^
Will link you to a playlist of all the videos I make for this project, if you're interested in the matches more than the text information.
I wanted to have a place where all of the things I post my advice, matches, and general bull ****tery were all easy to locate and to give everyone easy access to what I hope to make a thread to help everyone improve.
I plan to do this by breaking down match ups with a video background of my friendly/tournament sets as a basis to give everyone an idea what I am talking about. I strongly believe trying to explain things to people through text can often be difficult. My goal is revive the Ganondorf forums and usher in a new age of Ganondorf.
Basically, I think Ganondorf mains are rare and we should help each other improve by sharing everything we have to offer. No egos, no calling each other out, no negativity this is a support hot line 1800-we-wreck-everyone.
Ganondorf has some insanely hard up hill battles to climb in his match ups. The more we work together to share our information to educate each other, help each other (by idk punching each other in the face?) Ganondorfs need to be forged through pain or some... psycho.. bull...shi.. whatever.. Point is, I am going to try to record videos with some amazing players for each character in the game and break down key information for each match up. It may not be the most indepth knowledge but having a core understanding of what you're going to be up against may just give you enough to get by.
I would like to begin by discussing Ganondorf as a character.
Let's start by going over his moves ;
Jab/Tilts/Dash attack
- Jab / Neutral A : A fast and useful attack.. hit box's are active on the 3rd-5th frames. Good against characters that cause a lot of pressure. Simple combos include but are not limited to ; jabbing multiple times, (sometimes wave dashing to stay close in between) Jab -> Grab some people may try to shield after being jabbed. Jab -> Dash Attack is great for quick easy damage and helps a lot in Ganondorfs general ground game.
- Forward Tilt (Regular, up and down angled) : F tilt is another fast spacing tool with a surprising amount of range. Hit box's are active on the 9th-11th frames. The f tilt is a good mix in with grabs when wave landing on flat stages. It's strong to help keep faster characters away and creates the space you need whenever you cannot jump. Ganon mains these days have POOR ground games, use your tilts guys I promise they are great.
- Up angled forward tilt : Is amazing for stuffing approaches, the most common use being against captain falcon. If Captain falcon approaches with side b, n air, knee, ect. the up angled f tilt will beat it out if he's trying to hit you directly. (doesn't space it out)
- Down angled forward tilt: Is a strong edge guarding tool usually against Fox/Falcos who do NOT sweet spot the ledge, contrary to popular belief. If Fox/Falco sweet spots the ledge Ganondorfs down angled forward tilt DOES NOT hit him even if you put the attack out before, during or after he reaches the ledge.
- Down tilt: A good neutral game spacing tool and combo extender, Active hit box frames on 10-12. Up throw -> down tilt can lead to devastating combos on fast fallers. Crouch cancel wars with tilt spamming sheiks will be good here. You are heavier than she is if you go down tilt for down tilt you will win.
- Up Tilt: Before I get into the move it's self, I'm going to advise all of you who are "pure" Ganondorf mains to go out and use other characters. I played Ganondorf for two years or so before dabbling in other characters and it was a mistake. It took me a long time to learn how to up tilt with other characters without jumping or doing something weird I did not want to do. So, if you're going to main Ganondorf branch out a little with other characters so you don't have technical problems in the future like I did. So, this move will be so rarely used that you will often forget it exists. Active hit box frames on 81-33 makes this super laggy predictable move nearly useless. Best use is on a sleeping Jigglypuff or on a broken shield. It can be used to edge guard but it is unnecessary whenever you have a plethora of better options at your disposal.
- Dash Attack: A fast combo extender or pressure breaker, hit boxes are active on frames 7-16. A good combo move after a jab can lead to more follow ups as it sends them into the air. An uncommon use of dash attack that is good is vs. Falco. Forward throw a Falco player and they will almost always jump (the f throw doesn't send them very far) So they will try to laser or do an aerial. The dash attack will hit them and keep them grounded. From there you can pivot tilt, dash attack again, try for a turn around grab ect. It's not terribly useful but against space animals you need all the tools you can get.
Smash Attacks
- Forward Smash: The most accidentally used move in Ganondorf history, hit boxes are active on frames 20-24. The most applicable use of this move is to abuse that it has an auto spacing feature built in, it may be tricky but it can be used if you feel like you are about to grabbed it will pull you backwards before launching the attack. Realistically, that example will be rare and will be hard to execute just something to think about. A good kill move on stages with low ceilings and a good mix up for wave lands and pivots.
- Down Smash: My favorite smash attack, hit boxes are active on frames 19-22 and again on 29-32. A gimmick Ganondorf can abuse is beside the ledge you down smash and the first hit will send them flying off the stage behind you, usually leads to a safe edge guarding position. Generally, whenever you have high percentage or are behind in stocks a gimp is what you're looking for. This gimp is surprisingly effective because a lot of people under estimate the length of Ganondorfs down smash. Another use is tech chasing, I often use it on space animals at low percentages after a down throw. If it connects with both hits you can grab them out of the air or follow up with another punish of your choosing. Side b, f air, another down smash ect. You can also chain down smash, turn around down smash at low percentages on fast fallers and floaties. It's amusing, does decent damage and is easy to follow up.
- Up Smash: a very under utilized smash attack, hit boxes are active on frames 21-23 and again on 26-29. Often used as a tech chase option when people are above you on platforms the up smash can be used in a lot of unique ways. It can be used as a kill move on floaties being combo'd off of down throw, usually only connects off of bad DI. The crotch hit box acts like a marth tipper, it has a lot of knock back and sends people straight away from you, I wish I knew a way to combo into it more effectively but when it's used it is great. Weird use on FoD when you up smash as the platforms on the left and right when they are rising you move from the ground up onto the platform which pseudo extends the range of the attack. Another cool use is when you are on "randall" the cloud on yoshi's story, up smash when you get close to the stage (on the left side) and your up smash goes fairly far up through the stage/past the ledge can help relieve pressure.
Aerials
- Neutral Air: The most under utilized / undiscovered attack, hit boxes are active on frames 7-8, 16-17. *VERSION 1 of ssbm* Active on frames 20-21 on all others versions... Why they did that who knows.. Often used by Kage as a combo extender, very few Ganondorf mains have experimented or found much use for this weak, laggy.. attack. Can be used on floaties at low percentages out of down throw to combo into both hits, which can lead into another attack but is not reliable. Kage will use it on spacies ex: down air -> n air - f air. To extend his combo for bonus damage, these combo's a very DI dependant and also unreliable. N air, can also be used in teams as an option to save a team mate who can't quite make it to the ledge.
- Back air: Best spammed aerial, hit boxes are active on frames 10-15. Back air is used commonly as a spacer or a kill move. Down throw combos into it, tech chase with it, and is Ganondorf's most spammable safe aerial with it's speed and disjointed hit boxes. Very strong in the Ganondorf match up, your opponent clone dorf has a hard time getting through walls of back airs. Same can be said vs. Jigglypuff, back air makes the match vs jiggs go from hell to playable.
- Forward air: Ganondorf's most reliable aerial: hit boxes are active on frames 14-19. a spaced f air is one of Ganondorf's most useful attacks. It beats out a lot of characters approaches if you see them coming in to hit you, makes a nice disjointed wall in front of you and if it hits has considerable knock back.
- Up air: Ganondorf's fastest aerial, hit box's are active on 6-16. This aerial with it's speed and large range is a great spacing tool. It can be used to stuff a lot of approaches, is a good choice out of shield, and is a good combo follower usually off of jab and into it's self. The *Tipman* Spike (Some people call it the Eddie spike, I don't care what you call it.) Reverse up air, you space it so your toes hit the edge of the ledge can send your opponent into a gimpy down and away hit stun leading to easy edge guards. Another use of the "tipman/eddie spike" is the Eikeldrop. Eikelmann, likes to ledge drop up air against Marth's recovery.
- Down air: Ganondorf's most damaging aerial, hit box's are active on frames 16-20. It is a meteor spike, meteor's can be canceled with your second jump or your up b once out of hit lag. Since this down air has an electric effect it has a few extra frames of hit stun, whenever you try to meteor cancel vs. Ganondorf down air you need to do it little bit later than you would against other characters. The hit box is enormous, if you have someone above you on a platform you can hit him with your head, obviously up air/other aerials are a better choice but it is an option. The only thing I've seen with the head down air is on pokemon stadium. I like to short hop down air when people are above him on the low platforms, then follow up onto the platform for which ever punish seems applicable, unreliable but pretty cool.
Special Moves
- Warlock Punch (Neutral B): Much like the uptilt, you will often forget this move exists hit boxes are active on frames 70-72. Another great punish for broken shields and sleeping jigglypuffs. You should basically never use this move for much of anything.. BizzaroFlame and I will occasionally warlock punch when falling from very high distances, you'd be surprised how often people will try to punish it and get blasted to oblivion.
- Gerudo Dragon (Side B): Automatic spacing tool, combo starter and extender. Hit boxes are executable on frames 15-34. Good to use as a tech chaser, out of a lower percentage down air, down throw and so on. It is another good tool for when if you think someone is going to try to grab you because it has a pull back on the start, using it twice in a row has a chance of hitting because many people try to shield grab it the first time it hits their shield. Ledge hop side b is a good mix up to help deal with being pressured on the ledge. - Aerial Side b ; Worthless, laggy, if you find a use for it let me know.
- Dark Dive (Up b): A slow predictable recovery move, grab boxes are active on frames 13-33.
I was avoiding using images from other threads but this really needs to brought to everyone attention, Ganondorf's up b.. Let's talk about the positive before I get into the negative.
On take off at the start of the up b it has a much larger range makes it a great option for out of shield. If someone shields on a platform above you it also makes for a good offensive option if you jump up to someone expecting you to throw out an aerial. "tomahawking" (empty neutral jump, land, grab.) with Ganondorf's up b is very strong. A lot of people shield very often against Ganondorf so an empty jump into up b can often lead to unexpected damage or a potential kill mix up. Up bing reverse while recovering will pull your body closer to the stage making it easier to tech. However, it makes it IMPOSSIBLE for you to land on the stage after using your up b. Use this wisely, whenever you see an opponent that rarely grabs the ledge.
Look where Ganondorf's up b grab box is actually located during the animation... a grab box for some reason is hiding inside of his stomach and part of his knee cap, you would think, expect or even hope a grab move would come out past his arms or by his head or something.. So the grab is small and not very reliable. Ganondorf CANNOT sweet spot the ledge, his legs go up over the ledge and the landing lag on stage makes you never want to recover high onto the stage. Whenever you land on the stage from an up B you are stuck in one full second of lag giving your opponent tons of time to choose anything they want to do to you.
- Wizard's Foot: A good offensive surprise in the neutral game, hit boxes are active on frames 14-34. Often used as a random attack to break up neutral spacing this semi-fast move can be used as an edge guard, combo finisher, tech chaser and like side b is a good mix up from the ledge to help get rid of the pressure of an edge guarder. Another good thing to mix in with your ground jab/tilt game can throw people off, never should be spammed because it's laggy and predictable.
- Aerial Wizard's Foot: Is a true spike, hit box's are active on frames 15-29. Can be used as a strong edge guard but often not worth the risk. Using this technique gives you another jump which can make recovering much nicer. It is however, extremely punishable. If you ever down b anywhere near the stage and you are not punished you should thank the person you are playing against for not hitting you out of it. A set up for the true spike to down air someone by the ledge, rejump and then immediately down b them.
Every video I make will be against an accomplished Player
- Uber Ice
Top 10 player in Florida : Recently defeated Linguini/Lambchops in tournament.
(results thread can be found here)
http://smashboards.com/threads/body-bag-results.349927/
- RockCrock
A link to one of his combo videos : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28XUXIDnc0E
- Moltov
www.twitch.tv/Moltov
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Ice Climbers | Renth vs. Uberice Friendlies | VIDEO UPLOADED 3/11/14
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVAeMdLTGn4&feature=youtu.be
Played a bunch of friendlies with uber ice today, we decided to record a handful of them. More to come in the future vs. more amazing players.
The biggest thing you need to realize honestly is that it's a match of pure punishment. If you land a fair keep in mind NANA DOES NOT TECH STAY ON THAT HOE LIKE SHE OWE YOU MONEY.
Do everything in your power to not get grabbed. The name of the game is Bait and wait. Ice Climbers will use their superior wave dash speed to get in and out of your aerials try your best not to let yourself open with a big enough window for them to get inside of you.
PRESSURE IS KEY. The match up is a back and fourth struggle. Basically, when Uber Ice and I are playing. If he feels helpless I played well, If I felt helpless he played well. It's a match up of pure punish that both sides flourish at. Edge guarding (tho i ****ed it up a lot) Is very easy. Do not do anything flashy AT ALL seriously stand still. PoPo will side b to you just bait it out and f air / b air it. I unfortunately have way too much fun with movement and momentum abilities I often let easy edge guards/drop a lot of easy hits. (DO NOT BUILD THIS HABIT) It's slowly being beaten out of me.
Let me drop a few more tips:
Whenever PoPO down throws you and Nana down airs, the BEST way out if to Smash DI down and away behind Popo. As soon as Nana hits you with the D air try your damnedest to get the smash DI down and away.
From there you can buffer a roll, double jump, up b ect. Just a warning this takes a lot of practice and even when you understand how it works it is still Very difficult to achieve consistently.
Not much else to say, watch enjoy. Uber Ice is godlike.
Learn as many nana mechanics as you can. The more you know the better you will do at the match up a few examples:
If you are by the ledge and Nana grabs you. She will ALWAYS forward throw you off the stage that's why you only see Ice Climber hand off combos in that position. As I mentioned earlier she does not tech so If you land a f air on both Popo/Nana a follow up f air on Nana is guaranteed. If they are on a platform above you let's say yoshi's at low percentage you can up air chain Nana zero to death fairly easily. You have to keep your eye on Popo at ALL times whilst killing Nana. Focus Nana is a key element to the match up but you need to do a lot of delayed aerials, empty jumps and baits for popo because that little douche is a lot faster than you think he is. He will try to interrupt you with quick wave dash/smashes or grabs.
Popo can SOLO chain grab you from 0-40% if you hit Nana away and are fighting Popo. He can chain grab you and wait for her to get back to him. If you are low percentage and you feel like you have advantage cause Nana is not in a favorable position it can come back to bite you on the ***. Do not under estimate their dash attack, it can chain into its self and sends you very far even at very low percentages. Jabs and tilts are your friends space them and you will do great!
A good Ice Climber player will always have a superior Sopo game to whenever he has Nana with him. When people understand the match up a lot of ice climber players play without nana cause she's dead a lot of the time. Whenever I kill his Nana I feel like his actual game begins, whenever nana is alive he just wants to do grab/death combos. Basically, do not sleep on Sopo.
A piece of information I feel is not commonly known: *tested and proved*
If you get a grab on the ice climbers when they are together (popo specifically) Ganondorf is a tall character, tall enough to the point where popo no longer has control of nana. If you DOWN THROW like you want to because it's the throw every ganon main combos off of. The bounce on the down throw will give him enough control to have nana smash you/grab you ect. So, If you grab Popo use any throw besides down.
Stage Choice Advantage/Disadvantage
- Yoshi's Story: Advantage *60/40*
- Battlefield: Even *50/50*
- Final Destination: Disadvantage *40/60*
- Dreamland: Advantage *55/45*
- Pokemon Stadium: Disadvantage *45/55*
- Fountain of Dreams: Advantage *55/45*
- One of the better matches for Ganondorf. This match up comes down a lot match up knowledge, I'm convinced a lot of people who lose to Ice Climbers in general is because of a lack of exerience. They are not a commonly played character and learning to fight them takes time. When I first started playing Uber Ice I would often be 3/4 stocked and rage that his character was stupid. Now that some time has passed I no longer feel Ice Climbers are as incredible as I once thought.
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Ganondorf Dittos | Renth vs. RockCrock Friendlies | Video uploaded 3/12/14
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08LMZ9ezSz0
He read/caught my double jump MANY times. I'll watch out for that in the future.
The long and short | Ganon Dittos.
It's another zoning match up ladies and gentlemen!
Key note :
Ganondorfs Down b is E X T R E M E L Y punishable!!
Anytime you see Ganondorf use his down b remotely close to the stage jump out and f air/b air it. Once Ganondorf is stuck in that gross, never trades with anything lasts forever animation. He is doomed to eat a fist to the face. A lot of the time against players who are familiar with fighting Ganondorf it's better to use down - b sparingly, only use it far away from the stage and be very careful with how you recover.
You spend the entire match up fishing for that one good hit, you follow up like you haven't eaten for a week and there is a giant tray of *insert food you love here* just on the other side of the person you are punching the living **** out of. It's a battle of out smarting/out playing your opponent. The less the person you are playing against knows your specific play style the better in this one (I mean.. that can be said all the time but.. Ganon dttos are harsh and if your opponent knows your habits/styles/approaches/mind games ect. then you are one cooked goose) I mean honestly, you will be Ganondorfs dinner he will eat you without a second thought do not get eaten my friends!
Which leads me to a short off topic story, I play with UberIce a lot. He and I go to tournaments and I know he is a strong player, I make it a point to only warm up with him before the event starts. Let's face it friends, Ganondorf has got a lot of gimmicks in his general game play. The less Marthfan1337 and FireFoxMasterSniper are comfortable/familiar with these "tricks" and general Ganondorf play the more chances you have to catch them by surprise in the future.
If you KNOW the other Ganondorf is going to approach with an f air (poorly spaced just throwing it in there hoping.) A short hop up air will beat it every time, back air will also win in this situation. Side b is risky but can lead to good follow ups, down smash is another risky option but the risk is often worth the reward. It all leads to that one good hit, do whatever you have to do SAFELY get that opening shot and take full advantage. Grabs ; I feel are under utilized in this match up. seriously... Grabs dominate Ganondorf dittos. They are easy to follow up, you can CHAIN GRAB, and it helps control your oppoent.
KEY NOTE :
Ganondorf has a phenominal roll trying to punish it is hard. The only time you should try to punish it is if the person you're playing has a "tell" a habit you've noticed in a situation and then is one of the only times it's worth trying to hit. A lot of times rolls against Ganondorf punish attempts happen and they get counter hit/shield grabbed for it.
Whomever is standing in the center of the stage is winning, stage control is supremely important. Running away on platforms is safe if you keep moving in unorthodox patterns. If you stay above Ganondorf for too long he will up air repeatedly. SHIELDING ON PLATFORMS IS NOT SAFE ; You can be like Hahahah Ganondorf your attacks are slow and predictable i'm just going to shield!! However, that isn't the case. Ganondorf is surprisingly good at shield poking unintentionally. As well as intentionally for people who ya know.. know how to space and not suck. If you shield too often off of landing lag (KEY NOTE: Whenever you land on the stage from a free fall from your up b you will have ONE FULL SECOND of landing lag.) Then the Ganondorf will often use his up b for free damage off of your shielding. Good Ganondorf play I've seen also include ground tech chasing not just on platforms with their up b offensively and has netted positive results.
Become confident with your edge guarding abilities seriously. Don't be a ****** like me and waveland all over the universe once your opponent is off stage. Grab the damn ledge, reverse up air, or whatever aerial you like and just hit him. This match up one where one HIT can change an entire match, It is by far the most frequent match where I see someone about to get 4 stocked be able to come back and win the match.
Stage Choice Advantage/Disadvantage
- Yoshi's Story: Even *50/50*
- Battlefield: Even *50/50*
- Final Destination: Even *50/50*
- Dreamland: Even *50/50*
- Pokemon Stadium: Even *50/50*
- Fountain of Dreams: Even *50/50*
- Not too many ending notes for this one... Does it surprise you all the stages are even? well it shouldn't you dummy. Space him out, land that one good hit and edge guard your way to victory. I strongly repeat when it comes to edge guarding don't be a ****** like me. Once they are off stage stand with your back to the ledge, do what you have to do and if he recovers low.... grab the ledge. Seriously, why do so many people refuse to take free stocks by rolling onto the stage (this is me yelling at myself.)
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Renth (Ganondorf) Vs. Moltov (Sheik)
Set 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_0uQIvej24
Set 2 http://youtu.be/KWYLZaBuhcE
Set 3 http://youtu.be/YHcPT6C2uuA
The Neutral I feel like this is the biggest issue most Ganondorf mains have in the match up so we will start here and slowly work our way through the rest of the break down.
To do well against Sheik, you need to have an extremely polished fundamental game. The basics very good spacing, phenomenal ground game, on point chain grabs and being aware of when and when not to do certain things.
Basically, you need to get punishes on her weak approach game. Your punish game needs to be perfection getting the maximum damage output each time or you aren't going to last long. Abuse crouch canceling as often as you can.
Let's Start with the DO NOTS
Never try to jab, tilt, or mess with Sheiks shield. Jab on can be easily punished by a multitude of options. She can wave dash back, simply shield grab (even if the jabs are spaced) dash attack between the jabs and so on.
A very important thing to take note on is Sheiks crouching. She can abuse it in many situations, Ganondorf CANNOT Jab, f tilt, f smash, grab, warlock punch or down smash her when she is in her crouching animation. A key note : I wish I had gotten recorded, if Sheik lands in her up b she falls into a crouching position which can avoid things for free. I often like to use reverse down b, stand where she is going to land and position yourself so she is going to land on top of you. Press down b, get the reverse hit and she is one dead little girl.
Do everything in your power to keep the game in the neutral. Wave dash back down tilt, waveland retreating f air and so on. Do everything in your power to keep her out of your zone, once she's inside your stock is gone with some extremely easy chain grabbing and tech chasing. Ganondorfs defensive options once someone is close is pitiful and predictable.
Also, a good mix up to try whenever you hit someones shield, an experienced player will know that "Most" Ganondorf mains will f air ~> jab to try to keep pressure and keep themselves safe. It's not very reliable against Sheik, she will wave dash out of shield and you will get destroyed. In the chance sheik continues to shield and rarely punishes the jab try to mix up the jab with an up b. F air ~> up b on shield. It's very simple mix up but it works wonders in most match ups.
Shield baiting is an amazing tool every Ganondorf main needs to start developing. Most players will shield a Ganondorf aerial, see him double jump and they know clearly another one is coming. Wave land out of the second jump and get that beautiful tomahawk grab or up b. ANY TIME you catch a player shielding in a situation they are going to continue doing it because it's safe. Make it un-safe for them by mixing in up b's it's under-used and it's good. Of course, it's not guaranteed it's a mix up don't do it too much or you will get bodied. Vs. Sheik, you need all the tricks you can get. She can easily tilt away almost all of your plans and put you in an awful position.
I feel like most people not just Ganondorf mains give sheik way too much respect whenever she is recovering, of course she has fast aerial she can use to react to your edge guards and sure it has invulnerability but the start of it does not. Sheik is very vulnerable at the start of her up b using an "EikelDrop" (Ledge drop down air) can be very effective. Also, if the sheik has predictable recovering patterns and you have a good idea when she's going to double jump, seriously run out there and through a reverse up air at her, b air ect. It is risky, it is dangerous but the profit is you getting a stock for hitting her trashy over rated recovery.
Do not be afraid to try to steal the ledge from her, Ganondorfs wave lands are fast enough to snatch the ledge out from under her and let her fall to her death, you just have to be spot on with your prediction of their movement and knowing that perfect moment to take that shot. Once you let the sheik you are fighting know you are going to go for the ledge if they stall on it they will be more inclined not to stall as much, so you'll see one up b stall then you will see them wavelanding/rolling on to the stage ect. Bait them out with a short waveland, know that they are going to go for the stage and continue reading them as they ar attempting to read you. It's all adaption folks, she will adapt to you trying to steal the ledge by getting on the stage fast and you can easily take advantage of it. Get inside your opponents and the match is yours
A lot of people have problems with her needle camping just go to a top platform, shield, go to the ledge ect. You have a lot of ways to get around her needles and if you can bait the needles out her needle animation really isn't that fast. Similar to how you can punish a peach for pulling a turnip you can punish a sheik for spamming her needle. Jump over the needles waveland towards her and space some aerials, if she shields that's a free up b and so on.
The match up is extremely mentally exhausting because it's very easy for sheik to take advantage in nearly every situation but Ganondorf has the tools with over come the challenge you just have to have a superior mental game than whomever you are playing against. At a higher level of play it's not so much about match ups as it is player vs. player mentality.
Stage Choice Advantage/Disadvantage
- Yoshi's Story: Disadvantage 40/60
All best of 5 sets with Moltov will be uploaded tonight.
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