Match-Up #3 Sheik

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Sheik

Bio:

Sheik is a character from The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. Sheik serves as Princess Zelda's alter ego in the game; to escape Ganondorf's capture, Zelda passes herself off as a male Sheikah known as Sheik. Throughout the course of the game, Sheik aids Link, who is not privy to Sheik's true identity, by providing him with information and teaching him teleportation songs with a lyre.

Sheik's appearance and frequent usage of Deku Nuts as a means to vanish quickly is decidedly reminiscent of a typical ninja. Possibly owing to this, Sheik has become a popular character in The Legend of Zelda mythos, despite appearing only in one game out of the entire series. Sheik's true gender and the means Zelda used to change her appearance is also heavily disputed among fans.

Previous ratio:
30:70

info:
*coming soon*

 

[zeldasmash]

I think it should be at least 35:65. Possibly because Sheik's only projectile is Needle and it can compete against Bow and in some occasions Bomb, but not against Gale Boomerange and that Link can kill earlier than Sheik and his survivalbility is way better than Sheik's.

 

[Huggles828]

Link is only more survivable in terms of the number Link dies at. Sheik's ftilt is a pain. She can cahin multiple ftilts in a row and rack up a LOT of damage before you escape. Needles are good for gimping. Sheik is a lot faster than us.

I've only played this MU seriously once, against a player who's just better than me. I couldn't really do anything because he was better than me, but it was obvious my character didn't have the tools to effectively fight Sheik either. The question is how much me being Link contributed to the ***-whooping, haha. It was over so fast I barely even remember what happened.

It's heavily in Sheik's favor. It's probably not any better for Link than 35-65.

 

[Beat11]

I think I can give a little input on this if you like.

Sheik flat out beats Link on even terrain without question with needles and faster attacks in general. Link can however take advantage of Sheik's attack areas by fighting her on an platform or other things that elevate you on a higher standing level. By not staying in her direct range, you can avoid excessive needle spam and shield dash approaches. Stages like brinstar exploit this weakness greatly. When your in her direct range, focus mostly on bombs and retreating Zairs with a couple of bombslides if you know how. Use boomerangs and arrows very seldomly as these are our weak projectiles that help sheik get to us faster. When she is close, all you can really do is shield and hope to retaliate fast enough. Try to keep bombs out and near you to reinforce some distance. As far as killing goes, sheik takes forever to kill you unless she gimps you. For you, never rush any kill moves at all, just let ease their way on in through traps and set ups. When offstage, there is not much you can do because needles and Fair will beat everything you have. Just try to avoid the situation beforehand with proper DI. When you hit far enough offstage, try focusing on guarding the ledge and punishing her landings onstage. Tilt locks are gay, nuff said.

Overall, the matchup is still in her favor but not as much as people make it out to be IMO.

 

[Fuujin]

Ya Brinstar is pretty lame, any stage that isn't flat enough for her to spam needles will be a little better for Link, I think she can tilt lock him till like 70ish though.

Like beat says you'll just want to spend your time trying to camp her, her close range game beats links because of the speed of her attacks.
Link has to watch out for her F-air when hes off stage as hes incredibly easy to gimp.

Can't really give much advice for this MU though cause I always go Zelda, sorry.
40-60 or 35-65 I'm guessing

 

[Ryos4]

Is possible to SDI out of Sheiks Ftilt? Based on some SDI ive seen on other attacks it, it doesn't seem like Ftilt would be too much of a problem, assuming you could SDI well. If not well then that sucks lol.

At least sheik is tall enough to take full advantage of Zair.

 

[Huggles828]

I think if she gets you at a low damage and places it just right, you can't really DI out of it. Not before you've taken so much damage that it's served its purpose anyway, haha. But yeah, I'm pretty sure you can DI out of it if she does it close to you or at the very edge of the range of the attack.

I wanna see a Sheik try to ftilt lock Mr. Doom now, haha. I'm curious as to what would happen.

 

[Fuujin]

I wanna see a Sheik try to ftilt lock Mr. Doom now, haha. I'm curious as to what would happen.

I have lol, not from start to finish but like you said it depends on the character, the damage % they're at, if she hits you at the edge of it and how fresh/stale it is.

It's not something you can get out of if she does it right in most cases.

 

[phi1ny3]

I have lol, not from start to finish but like you said it depends on the character, the damage % they're at, if she hits you at the edge of it and how fresh/stale it is.

It's not something you can get out of if she does it right in most cases.

^This. Minimal hitlag + weak knockback ftw.

 

[Beat11]

SH Bair is safe on shield so use it as another spacing/CQC option.

Is there anyone else who knows or plays this matchup to give more info. I would like to hear everyone's opinion on this before someone comes up with a verdict.

 

[Ryos4]

How is SH Bair safe on a shield?

Anyway i hardly ever run into good sheik players so it hard to say if i really have any strategy for them. I would probably just play against her like any other fast character.

I would refrain from using smashes for the most part. They would only come out for kills or when i know they are going to hit. So the smashes can kill as early as possible, and to keep me moving as quick as possible by avoiding them since they have some pretty bad ending lag. First hit of Fsmash is a toss up, it has really good range and doesn't lag too bad.

Generally i would play mid range against everyone, keeping a safe distance away until one of 3 things happens. I hit sheik with projectile or something, sheik makes a mistake, or countering a juggle with Nair or something. Then keep close until Sheik hits me or Sheik resets the spacing.

Anyway, Sheik should have lots of trouble killing Link. Especially if you add good DI, momentum canceling and saving your double jump. All you will really have to worry about are gimps or Usmash. DAC is also pretty dangerous, but you should be able to see it coming.

 

[Tewx2]

It's 70-30 Sheik's favor. She combos him hard, easily gimps him, and is over all fast enough to avoid getting hit by his attacks. It's hard to outright kill a Link with good DI, but theres no reason for Sheik to need to do this.

I've played both KirinBlaze and Legan in MM's and theres really nothing that Link can do but play super safe, and hope to poke Sheik up to kill percents, then hope that the Sheik gets hit by D-smash, or F-smash, or Dair. She can pretty safely camp her shield at death percents since Link doesn't have a strong grab game.

Pretty much the outcome of the game is dependent on the Link Player being able to heavily outplay the Sheik player.

As for stages, anywhere where Sheik is going to have a hard time gimping you is advantageous, and vice versa.

 

[Rizen]

If Link dodges, plays defensively spamming and uses angles and SHs, vaguely like vs Marth, and DI's well- on a favorable stage- this MU's 60/40 Sheik. Link cannot directly fight Sheik and her *DAC* (inside joke) lets her KO with a quick move. Nair is a great move to stop juggling.
When recovering just avoid Sheik unless you are completely safe to spam, airdodge is good. Her quick Fairs murder Link's recovery.
Overall 6/4 to 65/35 Sheik.

 

[-Mars-]

This MU's incredibly easy for Sheik.

She has the fastest dash>shield in the game so projectile camping is rarely an issue for her.

Ftilt wrecks link...like really bad.

She handles him easily offstage.

She probably outcamps Link as well.

70-30 Sheik imo.

 

[Beat11]

SH Bair is semi safe on sheild because you can jump before you even land and it auto cancels.

Also, sheik does not outcamp Link if he utilizes curving ability in his projectiles to attack her.
People took my advice the wrong way as to say that Link is suppose to camp her with projectiles. Link has to focus on stopping her approaches and forcing her to react and make a mistake by throwing a FEW projectiles. Most Links tend to over exaggerate the whole "projectile combination/camping" thing by thinking they are toon link. Support YOUR strong points by throwing a couple to FORCE reaction and punish approaches.

Ftilt locks until 70ish. Sheik's jab cancelling is dangerous for Link. Like Arizen says, link should play defensive with sheild and SH airdodge.

Link CAN camp sheik but links should only do it for a short period of time. Sheik is too fast to camp.

 

[zeldasmash]

35:65? Everyone is lacking opinions.

 

[Rizen]

I'm probably too optimistic for Link.

 

[Huggles828]

Well, like I said, I've only played a good Sheik once, and they were better than me and I didn't know the matchup. Definitely a big disavantage for Link though. The question is how much.

 

[Beat11]

I'd settle for 40/60 or 35/65 at worst but no way in hell am I settling for 30/70 or worse. It not that easy for her. If it was, she'd be our worst matchup.

 

[Huggles828]

I'd settle for 40/60 or 35/65 at worst but no way in hell am I settling for 30/70 or worse. It not that easy for her. If it was, she'd be our worst matchup.

Haha, I dunno about that. Our worst matchup is Falco, and I think that's in the 25/75 or even 20/80 range. Again, I have very little experience with Sheik, but I could see it being similar in difficulty to the Fox matchup which is 30/70.

 

[Ryos4]

Its def not as bad as Falco or MK. Falco is only bad for Link for one reason and i find that so irritating. At least its better then Fox vs Pika.

I think the match up vs fox is worse with foxes reflector shutting down Links projectile game a bit more effectively than needles. Not to mention it makes it really dangerous to use the Rang when you're recovering. With the addition of more killing moves then Sheik. Usmash, Dsmash, Uair, Bair and being able to use Dair to set up for kill moves. Sheik has to work for kills.

Fighting Sheik def isnt easy but it isnt really that hard either.

 

[Beat11]

Falco isn't that hard, just keep camping him no matter what unless he has a stock lead. His projectiles will never kill while your bombs will kill. It is better to take lasers to the face and punish his approaches than go near him and get C-Grabbed to spike offstage. He also lacks kill set ups.

I play Fox everyday,you can still camp him. His lasers are annoying though and reflector does not actually do that much either. The real reason you shouldn't camp him is because he won't permit you with the space to do so. He is easy a cake to combo with Zair and bombs. I use Zair and bombs to stop his approaches and I only throw boomerang or whatever when he tries to camp me.

Back on subject, Sheik is a disadvantage for sure but never as much as people exaggerate it to be. People only think this because NO ONE plays this matchup AT ALL. 40/60 or 35/65, your pick.

 

[Ryos4]

The only thing that makes Falco hard is his chain grab to death that could happen anywhere between 0-40% ish. Other than that the match would probably be like 40/60 if not 50/50.

Well Sheik is a rare character to run into. If they do play Sheik they generally would play Zelda as well. Idk i honestly find zelda harder then Sheik. But then again i like to play aggressive, so defensive characters are harder to me.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I do have experience with this, and lose this MU a lot.

This isn't MK/Falco/ other characters bad but she defiantly has a solid advantage.

Needles are annoying, full needle storm does 18% and I think blows up bombs. Sheik can outcamp when platforms are less prevalient, FD for example.

Ftilt lock is so dumb, avoiding it is like trying to avoid DDD's grab. >_> Unless DDD though, camping her is a lot harder because of her crouch, dash speed, and fast moveset. While it's ture she does die early and her kill power isn't great, het ability to rack up damage fast, and her ability to make recovering a complete nightmare is enough to push this to being a nightmare for Link.

35-65 Sheik's favor, a the very least. Wouldn't doubt if it was worse.

 

[Huggles828]

Personally, I think Falco's CG is just frosting on the cake. If Falco just didn't have a CG at all I think it'd still be 30-70 (I think it's in the 20-80 range to start with). All it does is change your strategy for the first 50%. Just be as ultra-gay and camp Falco as best you can (yes he's going to destroy you at this but the goal is to get SOME damage on him and just suck it up and eat lasers until you're outside CG percents). Then the hard part of having to approach him when reflector and jab >>>> zair and all your projectiles, Falco being impossible to approach, and Link being poor at actually approaching means this is the epitome of a shutdown matchup; everything Falco does just beats out anything Link can do. Seriously, it's like Darrelle Revis or Nnamdi Asomugha covering a third string Wide Receiver. Link, welcome to "Falco Island" (no one is gonna get my NFL reference, haha).

Anyway, back on topic. Personally, I don't think we should change the MU ratio unless we have something suggesting that it's different than what we have put down at the moment (30-70). I think it's in that ballpark, and everyone is kinda indecisive at the moment. I don't wanna change this just so Link's MU chart looks less depressing; accuracy is more important than giving ourselves a feelgood illusion about our character.

 

[zeldasmash]

Imo, Falco is harder than MK.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Imo, Falco is harder than MK.

I think if you learn how to handle laser and not try a jump bomb pull at bad times it's not as bad as MK.

MK is better when people can't exploit his weaknesses as well like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAO2kQ7V7ME&feature=related

Even in my matches back in October my choice of recovery was predictable, and it wasn't exploited like it should have, also I'm bad.

MK shares a lot of thinks Sheik has, minus range and kill power.

Sheik has the gimp abilities with Fair and Bair, plus she can be aggressive with it since her Side B chain and UpB still should give her enough range to make it back if she goes for it.

Kennispam beats my Lucario with Sheik more than I beat him, pretty sure he would 2 stock my Link unless he makes a huge error or SDs. Don't think it would be any different if I played against Judo, Tutu, Earth or Mars all of which are top notch Sheiks.

Link can outcamp Sheik if he has a platform, on FD I think she has a shot to outcamp Link in some areas. She has the second fastest moveset in the game, I think, she lacks range but again her dash speed and ground movement is still really good.

Link excess in camping, stage dependant, killing, range, and living.

Sheik's pros just outright wreck Link when she used them, because she preys on Link's weaknesses very well.

 

[zeldasmash]

What is this matchup chart everyone is talking about?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=291354

It's in the OP of the thread.

 

[zeldasmash]

OP? What is that?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Original post, basically it's the first post in the thread.

 

[Beat11]

Okay, I see where your going with this. Your saying that we should never boost a ratio just to make the chart look better. We must not give any Link mains a false sense of security in this matchup. We must show them depressing ratios in order to show them how hard they must study it. I personally don't think it 30/70 at all. But I have blinded to the fact that not everyone will play like I do. I vote for a 35/65 but I really don't want to see anything worse than 30/70.

I gave my vote so could everyone else decide theirs.

As for counterpicks, I would recommend taking her to Brinstar, norfair if legal, battlefield and maybe pokemon stadium 1.
I would banned final destination and avoid frigate orpheon and maybe smashville.

 

[KenniSpam!]

Kennispam

FFFFFFUUUUUUuuuuuuuu-

 

[Huggles828]

Ryu went fishing with some delicious namebait, and it look like he hooked himself a big one :D

 

[Rizen]

Kennyspam 2 stocked me twice on the ladder, which is better than most of the Falcos, DDDs, and MKs, I've played. "triforce gathering". Good Sheiks like Mars and he are extremely hard, I can easily see this being 70/30 Sheik. But I'm not a top Link either. Maybe Kirinblaze or Legan can give a good ratio.

 

[KenniSpam!]

and thats after i sd'd

link is worst character in game

 

[Huggles828]

and thats after i sd'd

link is worst character in game

10 's

 

[KenniSpam!]

not even trolling, i believe ganon is better than link

 

[-Mars-]

Link is better than most of low tier imo. he's actually pretty solid in most areas.

But the Sheik matchup just kinda sucks for him.

 

[LordXav1er]

The sheik MU to me isn't that bad actually. But then again I only played them on wi-fi where everyone sucks =/