Mastering Mewtwo's Movement.

[RedEyesWhiteSwaggin]

so when i play the wifi version and i try to wavedash i find it almost impossible. but then i realized input assist is off. should i be turning that on? because once i turn it on everything is fine again. also in the full set im fine with wavedashing too. is input assist supposed to be on for tournament regulation?

The problem with wifi codeset is that it does not recognize the analog inputs from the shoulder button (because its brawl wifi and brawl doesn't recognize those inputs). By analog inputs I mean any light presses/light shield inputs that do not result in a "click" sound from a fully depressed shoulder button. This means you have to completely press down a shoulder button if you want to lcancel/WD/waveland/airdodge so it takes a lot longer to do this input making your WDs sloppy. Input assist is a tool to acclimate beginners to the lack of buffer in PM; it is set to off in every major tourney. Idk if you can turn it on for wifi but I'd recommend just using full set (and enforcing full set at tourneys). Otherwise you will have to completely adjust your timing (begin pressing a shoulder button as you are jumping) or maybe removing a spring from your shoulder button (which would make WD OoS hard depeding on your method).

SUNC: Super Ultra Ninja Cookies

interesting that even FCed the Nair is negative on shield, the hitstun on it must be absolute garbage lol

All these acronyms are stupid; they make it confusing for new players especially when they don't make sense. You could simply call it a TP edgehog assuming TP becomes a common abbreviation for teleport. This isn't some silly club with secret codes: lets not repeat the brawl AT naming craze (see I already had to use two abbreviations, we dont need more lol).

Also yes, shield stun is proportional to damage so nair has ass shield stun.

Quoted for truth. Teleport is good for hard reads and specific follow ups, but otherwise I find just floating around, dash dancing, wavedashing, and throwing out shadow balls are better off in a neutral situation.

TP is amazing for more than that, I'll mention it below. Also DD'ing is pretty horrible with M2, all you are doing is continually drastically extending your hurtbox because of the tail. The only time you should use it that I can think of is to abuse that fact assuming your opponent knows to try to hit the tail (basically baiting someone to attack by putting your back towards them then DD'ing and punishing when they try to hit the tail). WD is mostly superior as far as I can see.

So I'm not sure if this is already known or not, but when I was playing with teleport I found that when you are in the air and teleport so that the animation ends just before you hit the ground the endlag seems to be much less and allows you to input a quick move from the ground. Once again I just wanted to know if it was known already or if I am just over complicating something simple.

Yes this is a very good tool but it requires strict spacing. If you TP FROM the ground or TO the ground the endlag is literally double so it can be risky if you're not sure of the spacing.

lol, Teleport.

if the people you play with are not at least sometimes hitting you out of attempted Teleports then they need to step up their games and stop being afraid of Mewtwo. 8 frames of startup would be bonkers in a traditional fighting game, but this is smash. there are characters with moves that are twice as fast as that (Fox's upsmash is faster, most of Sheik's moveset is faster, Ganondorf's upair is faster, most nairs are faster and stay out long enough to make timing a non issue... ect)

actually there's an example of it in a tournament video with Iori in it. Fox's first kill.

moving on, anyone else here find that Mewtwo's Ken Combo is too DI dependant to be practical? also Hover into Dair is an amazing addition to Mewtwo's edgeguarding arsenal.

I'm not sure in which way you mean 'bonkers' (too good or terrible?) but either way no? 8 frames of startup is pretty normal for many medium/heavy moves and actually is pretty similar to a few teleports I looked up in UMVC3 were 10-11 frame startup. So what I'm saying is this 2d fighter reference doesn't mean much of anything and listing a bunch of moves that are faster than teleport doesn't mean anything either. Just because Fox's usmash is faster than 8 frame startup does NOT mean he gets a free punish. Fox would have to be spaced correctly, facing the right direction, AND react to it.

8 frames is NOT in the human reaction reaction time. However it takes ~20 frames for M2 to be able to attack out of it and that can be reacted to. The problem is you cannot react to m2 appearing before he can attack so you have to guess based on where he teleported from. TP is probably the best mindgame tool in the game. From most neutral positions you can TP down in place (or airdodge down since it looks similar) and possibly punish their attempt at a TP punish with a fully charged SB depeding on their choice. You can TP in front of them and try to HC an aerial or just do an aerial or confusion. You can teleport just above them and do confusion/nair. You can teleport behind them and bair/nair/grab/confusion. You can teleport close to them and go for a fsmash/tilt/SB. You can TP then WD. The only way TP is a scrub gimmick is if you don't mix it up. You can chuck SBs at them and then TP behind one of them and punish with a confusion/HC fair>grab depending on how they have dealt with the SBs. Teleporting is also an AMAZING tool to aid in juggling/chasing and is an incredible option from the ledge.

That being said, I am NOT saying you should always be teleporting. and yes every character can punish a TP if they guess where you will appear.

For the record, I think you mean Fox's second kill? The first was a roll punish. and the second where he grabbed iori after a TP looks like it could have been a tech error. But that vid seems to more advocate smart use of TP.

Also M2's fair>dair isn't amazing unless your off stage with a character with poor vertical recovery. After the Dair it rarely gives followups and it usually gets your opponent back on stage if they walltech/meteor. Its almost always a better idea to fair>fair or Fair>uair or fair>nair to keep them off stage/above you. That being said, its hype as **** and can be used as a good mixup on stage.

i assume you're talking about fastfallers

It works on everyone at some percent for the most part (you probably have to settle for fair>uair against floaties). But against FF'ers juggling with fair/uair/utilt is almost always a better idea since M2 seems to be too slow to follow up a fair>dair>techchase or fair>dair>edgeguard off stage.

Still gotta get down dash dancing, though.

No shame dude, WDing is hard especially without someone to teach you. I'd recommend practicing with marth/luigi/M2 until you get real fast then move onto other characters. A fun drill I'd do was play vs a lv 1 cpu and try to go as long as possible without getting hit by just WDing away/wavelanding (without attacking, basically just practice evasion/movement/spacing/execution and lv up the computer if its too easy).

DD'in on the other hand is pretty easy once you get the hang of it. Again practice with marth/luigi/M2 even Fox. Try just tapping the stick one way to dash and go back to neutral. That initial dash length is basically your DD length. So try tapping the stick one way, letting go, then tapping it the oher way, and letting it go. Do this until you have the rhythm/distance down and you can do it fast enough so that you don't have to let go of the stick. Those characters have long DDs and should be easy to start with. Then you can practice altering the DD length so that you net a certain direction (so basically try to travel while DDing). You do this by shortening your ddash one way and doing the max distance the other way and repeating. This is important to learn so you can encroach on your opponents space and bait him into doing something. Sheik is really the only hard character to DD with so you should be good.

so i know this might be a noob question... but its about wavedashing. i think i found that if you hold it closer forward or backwards than just at a 45 degree angle that you go farther.. is this a thing or am i just imagining it?

Yes and its an amazing thing. The great part about WDing is that you can alter the length of it with every character by using different directional inputs. I want to say you can register 24 different directions in melee/PM its either that or 16 (no im not saying you can WD in all those directions). So depending which direction you air dodge determines the length of your WD, you can even WD straight down as a mindgame. Its most noticeable with luigi/marth/lucas but its useful with everyone.



...I might have gone overboard

 

[DMG]

It's 16 directions. Up down left right. Diagonal in 4 corners. Then 8 total inbetween angles found in the spaces between diagonals and up/down/etc. There's no further precision than that iirc

 

[Rekemetyrae]

Sorry if this is a noobish question, I've been lurking the forums and this is my first post, but I can't figure out how to float out of holding the ledge with Mewtwo, a few times I used down/back to let go of the ledge and have cancelled into it instantly, but 90% of the time letting go then pressing down and holding jump doesn't put him into float.

Dunno if this has been answered, but I found you can only hover out of ledge grab if you've both: Not used your second jump by the time you've grabbed, left the ground by your own volition (jump/wavedash and grab the ledge).

 

[Shadow Huan]

well, at least someone responded to a little of that post I made like last year lol

punishing the Teleport is as simple throwing out a lingering hitbox where you think he's going to go, and there's only so many places he can go. getting tagged in the startup doesn't happen often, my original point was that it DOES, that the move is not a get out free card.

all i'll say is that we can all agree that it's safe but not overly so, and that smart useage of the move is the key to success right?

not on here too often btw, I haven't even played this in a few months. got into Injustice

 

[MetaKnight0]

well, at least someone responded to a little of that post I made like last year lol

punishing the Teleport is as simple throwing out a lingering hitbox where you think he's going to go, and there's only so many places he can go. getting tagged in the startup doesn't happen often, my original point was that it DOES, that the move is not a get out free card.

all i'll say is that we can all agree that it's safe but not overly so, and that smart useage of the move is the key to success right?

not on here too often btw, I haven't even played this in a few months. got into Injustice

thats an injustice to mewtwo

 

[RedEyesWhiteSwaggin]

thats an injustice to mewtwo

huehuehuehuehuehue

 

[ManaX]

Anyone wanna test if you can wavedash out of a shorthopped teleport? You might have to float after reappearing or djc immediately after, but it would be good for his spacing game.

 

[HeWhoCanSee]

I think I may have something to recommend.
Normally, when Mewtwo teleports into the ground (his teleport's maximum range is interrupted by a platform he can't pass through) he has this animation where he spins around a bit after reappearing, vulnerable and unable to attack. But if you teleport into the air and land, it's as though he's only landing from an empty jump. Five frames of lag, according to the frame data sticky.
When practicing teleport regrabs on the edge on FD, I flubbed one and accidentally teleported horizontally into the stage instead of down to regrab the edge. Mewtwo landed on the stage (sort of like a perfect horizontal wavedash to a platform, but way more lenient; the ledge was between Mewtwo's midsection and feet, by my estimate) and didn't pirouette after reappearing, so I could act almost immediately. I guess since I was teleporting horizontally I couldn't have had the maximum range of my teleport interrupted by the floor, but I would have ended up under the floor anyway so the game just spat me onto the stage with the standard five frames of landing lag. Maybe that could be used, in some circumstances, to return to the stage and either run, shield or attack an edgeguarding opponent? In the very least it's another return option the opponent needs to keep track of.
I haven't seen anyone else do this. I don't know to say whether it's because no one knows, or they know and it's just not a good option.

 

[Zanku]

I think I may have something to recommend.
Normally, when Mewtwo teleports into the ground (his teleport's maximum range is interrupted by a platform he can't pass through) he has this animation where he spins around a bit after reappearing, vulnerable and unable to attack. But if you teleport into the air and land, it's as though he's only landing from an empty jump. Five frames of lag, according to the frame data sticky.
When practicing teleport regrabs on the edge on FD, I flubbed one and accidentally teleported horizontally into the stage instead of down to regrab the edge. Mewtwo landed on the stage (sort of like a perfect horizontal wavedash to a platform, but way more lenient; the ledge was between Mewtwo's midsection and feet, by my estimate) and didn't pirouette after reappearing, so I could act almost immediately. I guess since I was teleporting horizontally I couldn't have had the maximum range of my teleport interrupted by the floor, but I would have ended up under the floor anyway so the game just spat me onto the stage with the standard five frames of landing lag. Maybe that could be used, in some circumstances, to return to the stage and either run, shield or attack an edgeguarding opponent? In the very least it's another return option the opponent needs to keep track of.
I haven't seen anyone else do this. I don't know to say whether it's because no one knows, or they know and it's just not a good option.

hey man so it has been brought up before. i think i first saw it from master raven's thread post. so from that same instant when you land, i've been practicing to do a quick short hop teleport hover facing towards the opponent from the middle and a nd charge a shadow ball or what not. i do it because at first most people wont expect another teleport right after, and it gets you an extremely safe distance away from the opponent. practice this on battlefield where all the platforms basically give you instantteleport pads if you hit any flat surface at a 45 degree angle from the apex of your full jump. make sure you are short hopping after landing with teleport and you can teleport in any direction from platformsor on the ends of all stages.

 

[Zanku]

Anyone wanna test if you can wavedash out of a shorthopped teleport? You might have to float after reappearing or djc immediately after, but it would be good for his spacing game.

after a teleport, you can't airdodge, unfortunately. only before a teleport.

 

[HeWhoCanSee]

hey man so it has been brought up before. i think i first saw it from master raven's thread post.

*checks*
...
Noted.
In any case, while wanton use of teleports is going to get you read out eventually. Suddenly appearing behind someone with a d-tilt when they're expecting a regrab to the edge is bound to work at least a few times.

 

[ManaX]

after a teleport, you can't airdodge, unfortunately. only before a teleport.

Sad.
So reversing arial direction mid TP is OP.
Teleport at them, tap back real quick, back air for maximum range.

 

[Zanku]

*checks*
...
Noted.
In any case, while wanton use of teleports is going to get you read out eventually. Suddenly appearing behind someone with a d-tilt when they're expecting a regrab to the edge is bound to work at least a few times.

yeah, and that's the beauty of mewtwo: mindgames.

think about it, he's an evil psychic pokemon- he's gonna wanna **** you up in every way physically and mentally.
so it's all about showing your opponent all your sneaky movement options one at a time throughout the matches so you will always be a step ahead of the battle, cause then you're almost leading him through this game of death. and then it's just mixing it up and playing smart.

 

[AstraEDM]

yeah, and that's the beauty of mewtwo: mindgames.

think about it, he's an evil psychic pokemon- he's gonna wanna **** you up in every way physically and mentally.
so it's all about showing your opponent all your sneaky movement options one at a time throughout the matches so you will always be a step ahead of the battle, cause then you're almost leading him through this game of death. and then it's just mixing it up and playing smart.

That's why i love playing people i haven't played before with this character. There's always one more weird movement option to throw at them

 

[MetaKnight0]

That's why i love playing people i haven't played before with this character. There's always one more weird movement option to throw at them

in my experience people dont get confused about mewtwo's movement options they just have no idea how to DI his back throw so its easy 80% kills

 

[DMG]

How do people not know how to DI a standard Bthrow?

 

[MetaKnight0]

How do people not know how to DI a standard Bthrow?

by never playing against mewtwo ever

 

[DMG]

Who are those people, M2 is a scary character

 

[victinivcreate1]

I'm not too sure on how useful this is or whether it applies to this topic, but Mewtwo's Turnaround/B-Reverse fully charged Shadow Ball can really help with recovery and surprise opponents, since it jetsons you at a million miles per hour lol for a breif second. I've found use for it as a secondary option to tech chase (lets say I juggled a Falco and he landed and tech rolled away, and I'm facing his direction but in the air still, I do a turn around Shadow Ball which shoots me in his direction and follow up the tech chase). Teleport is probably better, but this option doesn't seem too bad either. And the B-Reverse is just ridiculous. Escape juggles all day long.

 

[ThreeSided]

I'm not too sure on how useful this is or whether it applies to this topic, but Mewtwo's Turnaround/B-Reverse Shadow Ball can really help with recovery and surprise opponents, since it jetsons you at a million miles per hour lol for a breif second. I've found use for it as a secondary option to tech chase (lets say I juggled a Falco and he landed and tech rolled away, and I'm facing his direction but in the air still, I do a turn around Shadow Ball which shoots me in his direction and follow up the tech chase). Teleport is probably better, but this option doesn't seem too bad either. And the B-Reverse is just ridiculous. Escape juggles all day long.

I've gotten some hilarious Bair kills with this. When playing against a character with really good recovery far off into a blastzone, just launch yourself to them and whip them to death, lol. They never expect you to go that far that quickly, especially not without using your second jump. And since you don't use said jump, you easily make it back afterwards.

 

[Zanku]

I'm not too sure on how useful this is or whether it applies to this topic, but Mewtwo's Turnaround/B-Reverse Shadow Ball can really help with recovery and surprise opponents, since it jetsons you at a million miles per hour lol for a breif second. I've found use for it as a secondary option to tech chase (lets say I juggled a Falco and he landed and tech rolled away, and I'm facing his direction but in the air still, I do a turn around Shadow Ball which shoots me in his direction and follow up the tech chase). Teleport is probably better, but this option doesn't seem too bad either. And the B-Reverse is just ridiculous. Escape juggles all day long.

are you talking about a charged shadowball or just the b-bounce to face the other direction?

 

[victinivcreate1]

are you talking about a charged shadowball or just the b-bounce to face the other direction?

Charged. Oopsie I'll edit my original post.

 

[ManaX]

B bouncing is really cool.
Jump, press b before you reach the peak, gain momentum.

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

and if nothing else I see attacking out of Teleport to be mainly used for tech chasing, a use that will make it absolutely and utterly fantastic... but people always over estimate the safeness of Teleport; it's not all that great.

Thank you. Being able to attack out of teleport doesn't really change that much. In melee, you could still use teleport to approach with very little lag if you preformed the tech skill right. The reason people didn't do it was because it gets punished hard if the enemy reads it.

I knew there would come a time when I could post this. Aye. I told yall ****** so.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I knew there would come a time when I could post this. Aye. I told yall ****** so.

I think Hover out of Teleport is the broke jank.

 

[Shadow Huan]

told me what? DMG said that Mewtwo is a scary character, most of the good characters in smash are "scary".

the Emukiller Teleport stuff is kinda ridiculous though. probably a result of not being able to Teleport in place; but my original point still stands. if the Mewtwo teleports towards you to approach, stick out a ****ing lingering hitbox. he can't act or hover out of Teleport right away, stuff that ****. (this is of course, assuming that you can predict it.)

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

told me what? DMG said that Mewtwo is a scary character, most of the good characters in smash are "scary".

the Emukiller Teleport stuff is kinda ridiculous though. probably a result of not being able to Teleport in place; but my original point still stands. if the Mewtwo teleports towards you to approach, stick out a ****ing lingering hitbox. he can't act or hover out of Teleport right away, stuff that ****. (this is of course, assuming that you can predict it.)

That doesn't have anything to do with my post.

Back when I first made this thread, I learned of how good Teleport & Float combinations were very early on. But when I said it would be one of the most important parts of his metagame, you simply said it would not be as useful as I was claiming it to be. Hence me saying I told you so.

 

[X Riptide X]

Hello, I'm pretty new to Project M- in fact, I've only picked it up about a week and a half ago. I really only have a lot of experience in Brawl, but after adjusting to PM, I find it far more enjoyable. Anyway, my PM main is Mewtwo, and I'm really a noob. So far, I can consistently wavedash and space my attacks pretty decently, but I'm nowhere near the level of other players. Thought I'd ask some more experienced people: what fundamentals should I focus on mastering before moving on to the more advanced techniques?