Marth vs Ganon

[Sybawave]

Ok...I have been losing to Ganon and it's been annoying the heck out of me and I need some tips to try to win...

I need help with approaches

 

[TedBoosley]

The last time I tried to post in a thread like this, I ended up with every Ganon in Florida talking **** to me and challenging me to $20 money matches.

 

[Dark Hart]

Just bait grabs and combo of off them. If that doesn't work, try so set something up with a nair, fair, or a shdfair.

Ganon's can't do anything to you until you make a mistake. Remember that.

You don't want to just dash in and hope what you're going to try works; they can do a ton of damage very quickly, and before you know it you're at 0% again.

 

[Sybawave]

How do you combo from a grab?

 

[Dark Hart]

...you throw them, then combo from there. lol I didn't think it needed that much explaining.

I can go into greater detail with the whole match-up if you'd like

 

[Sybawave]

Yes please....which throws lead into an attack...that's what I meant lol

And I can be gay and tech chase him all day but I still can't finish him (this may lie in my edge guarding abilities) so are there any sure fire ways to get them to stay dead?

 

[Europhoria]

So ignoring Dark Hart's advice to run away for 8 minutes.

Ganon's moves come out really slow, have less range and priority then several of your key moves, and Marth moves insanely faster then him. Based on that, you should get some ideas of how to approach.

If he's jumping backwards spamming aerials (which is what I'm guessing yu're losing to) then aim n-air or f-air or whatever behind where he is instead of right where he is and you'll just cut through his crap and combo. >_> If you hit his shield, jab or dash or whatever

 

[Sybawave]

I try that a lot but his Fair breaks through my Nair and when I try to Fair he just hops again with his mid air and hits me with an aerial.

And I don't have time to do anything if I hithis shield because he grabs me

 

[KirbyKaze]

If they're offstage and recovering somewhat high, just mindlessly time F-smashes until he dies. If he's really high after the Up+B and is going to go somewhat deep into the stage, I'd suggest stalking him and spacing so you can tip him when he lands on the stage or on a platform. If he gets onto a high platform there isn't a massive **** punish I'm afraid except some weird combo perhaps so just be creative.

If they're offstage and recovering low, grab the edge and either ledgehop Dair, ledgehop Bair, edgehog, etc. Plenty of stuff to do.

When they're really far away from the stage I like to jump off and Bair them or Dair them through their Down+B. It usually hurts them. Make sure you space so the Bair tips though and recover properly. Bair --> Dair is also very funny. Since most Ganons DI into Marth's Bair for obvious reasons offstage, it's very funny.

edit: Ganon's grab range is very small. There is no excuse for being shield-grabbed by Ganon. Space better.

 

[Europhoria]

He's putting his hitbox above your n-air. You can either put up the n-air sooner to stop him. Also... Ganon is really slow, you should be able to hit him out of his first hop. If he has enough time to do another jump and come down to hit you with f-air AFTER you've done your move, I'm confused. You should be able to shield out of a shffl f-air first. X.X

If you camp, he'll go around your hitboxes like he's doing with your n-air by punishing the lag of what you're camping with.

 

[ComboTurtle]

I try that a lot but his Fair breaks through my Nair and when I try to Fair he just hops again with his mid air and hits me with an aerial.

And I don't have time to do anything if I hithis shield because he grabs me

if you space your fair or nair properly or autocancel your nair with good timing you'll have time to dash away, jab, dtilt, utilt or even pivot grab him the pivot grab will only work if you hit low on his shield though or i think with the auto cancelled nair with good timing? idk anyways you shouldnt be getting shield grabbed too often unless you're messing up spacing or other things

 

[Sybawave]

Actually I think the main problem is that I don't know how to autocancel correctly...can someone tell me how please?

I was watching M2k vs Magus and I did noticed that M2k could dash away after an attack and how he isn't shffling his sh Fairs and Nairs

How do you keep him dead when he is below the stage?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

To autocancel the nair, just land after the second slash is done. It's really that simple.

If he goes below the stage, drop dairs at him, or just dtilt. Dtilt is easier. Best thing to do would be to grab the ledge, though, and either screw up up with drop down fairs/Dancing Blades/Dolphin Slashes or ledgehop dairs.

Ganon is generally kinda slow, but his uair comes out really fast, so watch for that. Really though, just dash dance camp and then punish him for whatever he tries to do. Watch out for the Wizard's Foot from Ganons who think they're so smart. I would avoid using the nair in this matchup for the most part and just stick with fairs.

 

[Sybawave]

So I still fastfall? And do you just do the same thing with the Fair? Once it is done swinging just land?

 

[The Enemy]

if you space your fair or nair properly or autocancel your nair with good timing you'll have time to dash away, jab, dtilt, utilt or even pivot grab him the pivot grab will only work if you hit low on his shield though or i think with the auto cancelled nair with good timing? idk anyways you shouldnt be getting shield grabbed too often unless you're messing up spacing or other things

Noob Post--> What exactly is Pivot grab?(and yes, I used the search engine)

 

[Sybawave]

I'm still trying to figure that out XD

Apparently a (true) Pivot Grab is a DA Dash plus the Grab and the one most people refer to is a Dash away and back plus a JC Grab

 

[elvenarrow3000]

It depends on when you start the nair. If you start it as soon as you leave the ground, you can fastfall as soon as possible like usual, but otherwise, you'll have to go case by case. It's still pretty fast even if you just L-cancel it, so... yeah. Autocanceling fairs is not such a great idea.

EDIT:

Pivot grab, just dash one way, dash the other and jump cancel grab. There's no point in actually pivoting a grab because that just limits your timing and even if you get it right, you get the same thing. Well. I guess technically it's one frame faster, but... it's really not enough of a difference to merit actually pivoting, especially if you're using it to chaingrab.

 

[Sybawave]

Don't shines come out at 1 frame?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Yeah? But they're in hitstun for more than that one frame difference between the "true pivot" grab and the "*******ized pivot" grab. So it doesn't matter.

 

[MaritLage227]

just u-tilt and use n-airs/f-airs to juggle with him.

 

[Ndot]

You can't juggle with utilt at like low 20ish percent because they will fly and hit the ground, but its free damage and can be tech chased. This percentage is for the pivot grabs, or dash grabs if they di left or right. The nairs, I've tried and I wasn't fast enough to hit with it, they always hit the ground before I hit, I should practice that.

Edit: Can you juggle at low 20ish percent with utilt if you hit with the back of utilt behind marth?
Edit2: I assume you guys were talking about spacies since I read the word shine =/ lol.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

No, I don't think you can continue the chaingrab at twenty with the utilt.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

Ganon's always trouble marth's....

Anyways, think of the bulldog strategy. When in a martial arts tournament, bulldog strategy means the short guy gets up really close to the tall guy so he can't use his long legs in kicking distance advantage and instead has to defend against the shorter guys punches.
Marth obviously has longer range, but just stay close to ganon. You see him leave the ground? Immediately jump up and fair him.
He's coming down with an aerial?
Slide your thumb from Y to A, holding down both buttons so you do a rising fullhop nair.
Keep interrupting his attacks.
If you watch cactuar(fox) vs scar(captain falcon), that's basically what cactuar does too. bulldog with shffl nairs.
Ganon's like captain falcon, they both need to be in the air to get their good moves out.
So don't give ganon time to leave the air and do aerials.
He tries to get away? Just catch up to him!

Oh, yeah. Edgeguard? Simple.
dtilts and fsmash! :D
I hav this thing with my neighbor. I throw him off and once he gets hit after losing his jump, he won't get back on. Everytime he tries, dtilt or fsmash.
So he always loses a new stock when I backthrow, he doublejumps with a fair, I forward smash him b4 fair hits, and dtilt his up-b's till he gets sent too far by one(or an fsmash)


I had trouble with ganon too until I picked up bulldogging.

 

[Sybawave]

Fsmash doesn't work from below because they tech and hug you unless they are really far away...Dtilt for some reason I can't hit them with if they "sweetspot" it.

"Ganon's like captain falcon . . . "

lulwut? SSBM is all about aerials lol there aren't too many characters that stay primarily on the ground and continue to combo that way

Ganon doesn't have enough hitstun from the attacks to keep that strategy going...Space Animals do that to him...Marth would just get ***** by a Grab to X, or a Uair/Dair...

Btw, bulldogging is a TKD term...use that in any fight you'd probably end up dead lol

 

[KIngGerudo]

i have no idea why im here in the marth boards but i read ganon so im checkin it out.
ganons uair and bair eat your aerials or trade hits and since marth isnt the strongest guy in the world, thats not a fun thing to do. ganon can combo off of his grabs 100% of the time. utilt combos and fair pressure when properly spaced are very annoying. make your grabs count. he is vulnerable during his wizards foot recovery. most good ganons will space fair approaches and jab afterwards if they feel you arent going to shield. try not to be to predictable with your recovery/ledge game. why am i even answering this?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Do whatever works, I guess. As long as you space yourself out right, you won't get grabbed, but yeah, uair would definitely be a flaw in that strategy. It comes out in... five frames, I believe. In the front, too.

Dtilt you should always be able to hit with, unless they're doing the backwards one in which case you just need to space yourself out better. Have you seen how far Marth's dtilt reaches below the stage?!

 

[KIngGerudo]

Dtilt you should always be able to hit with, unless they're doing the backwards one in which case you just need to space yourself out better. Have you seen how far Marth's dtilt reaches below the stage?!

dtilt will always hit him even when going backwards due to ganons arm and his head being larger than life. dtilt is the way to go against ganon, he cant survive it after 90% if you edgehog. if he is in range to be dtilted, just spike to be safe instead

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Dairs are easier to tech than dtilts though, since they send downwards, which means you could probably just ASDI to tech 'em.

 

[Strong Badam]

Pivot grabbing is grabbing on the first frame of a dash after a dashdance. Without it, Fox/Falco can DI up and shine while being chaingrabbed at around 20%, basically you dash away, turn around a grab without moving an inch towards the spacey again. It shouldn't be much help against Ganon though.

I've personally been having problems with a Ganon myself so I can't really help you there, but it sounds like you need to space better if he's sheildgrabbing you; if you are tippering F-air or n-air you should be able to avoid a grab, if not hold back after you initiate it. If you get a grab, you can down-throw techchase up to certain percentages or up-throw into a fair/uair.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

Fsmash doesn't work from below because they tech and hug you unless they are really far away...Dtilt for some reason I can't hit them with if they "sweetspot" it.

"Ganon's like captain falcon . . . "

lulwut? SSBM is all about aerials lol there aren't too many characters that stay primarily on the ground and continue to combo that way

Ganon doesn't have enough hitstun from the attacks to keep that strategy going...Space Animals do that to him...Marth would just get ***** by a Grab to X, or a Uair/Dair...

Btw, bulldogging is a TKD term...use that in any fight you'd probably end up dead lol

True....all the shffls in melee. But y'know what I mean....like they would be the dead-EST if all of a sudden you weren't able to jump.

oh, I'm in tae kwan doe. I heard my instructor use the term bulldog when coaching others about sparring, assumed it applied to more than tkd.


ELVENARROW!!! Where'd you get that hitbox displayer?!
I've been looking for that for a lonnng time! I saw it b4 but forgot where.

P.S., marth's neutral b should also hit a lil 'bit below the stage too, right?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Click me!

And yes, the Shield Breaker hits a little below the stage.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

I downloaded it....how do you open it though? what program, etc.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

WinRAR should be fine.

 

[Sybawave]

A big thing that gets on my nerves with him is he says Marth players are really gay and it doesn't take much work so I try not to be gay with the tech chase throws lol I know it works but then I still have trouble keeping him dead...

I just need to work more on my timing with the Bair so I don't go down with the Wizard Foot XD

I need to space my Nairs/Fairs better...

Ganon will get that Uair out pretty fast if you hit him with a non-tipper Fair lol that has happened to me too many times lol

I like the "Nair and aim to land behind him idea" I will try that...I will start tech chase throwing again...

Yeah, I was in TKD too lol and SSBM can relate to sparring in TKD really well lol there area lot of ATs there that give you more mobility and less lag and things lol my cousins play SSBM and TKD and I instruct them so I'll usually use SSBM lingo lol

Round House Kick and Turn Kick...it's like using IASA frames lol

But if it works on that Ganon then awesome lol I wish it worked like that for me lol Just don't get too used to a Ganon being like that

My cousin played Fox and he would never use the shine and when I finally fought a Fox that did >_< I got four stocked because I was always positioning myself for shine spikes

 

[AceDudeyeah]

Waaaaaah, not working.....
I tried the user and editor rated free rar extractors from download.com
Winrar costs stuff....

 

[TidalWave]

Waaaaaah, not working.....
I tried the user and editor rated free rar extractors from download.com
Winrar costs stuff....

winRAR is free...

 

[Sybawave]

http://www.rarlab.com/download.htm

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Yeah, WinRAR is free and tell him that techchases only work on predictable people. That's not entirely true, but it'll shut him up for a bit.

When he catches on that it's not true, tell him at least you're not playing Sheik =P

 

[Sybawave]

LOLOL ROFL XD

too good too good

 

[G@BE]

This thread with the marth advice makes my brain want to hurt itself >_>