Marth vs Falcon

[xCraZy]

I never win this match up. It's one of the most difficult ones for me. I always get frustrated play against him. I get hit by weird attacks and I can never get good follow ups. Any tips to improve on the match up?

 

[Zenmaioh]

Falcon is a tough matchup for Marth mainly because Falcon is faster on the ground and in the air. Luckily, your best friend in this matchup is proper spacing. Falcon has even less range than Marth and will inevitably have to get in close to attack. I recommend a more patient style, waiting for him to make the first move and capitalizing on mistakes. Space those aerials and smashes well enough and Falcon will be hard pressed to get hits on you. Remember that Falcon off the edge is god-awful and a well timed d-tilt will likely spell the end for him (even if it doesn't, Falcon will have limited options afterwards). Lastly, Falcon is a fast-faller, which Marth's grabs eat for breakfast, so working on those grabs and tech-chases will make this matchup go much better for you. And since I noticed your profile pic, I can say that Marth's Counter should only be used against Falcon if you are 100% sure it will work. Falcon is just too fast to let a poorly timed counter slide.

Hope this helps ya man! GLHF!

 

[djmath]

here are some tips I've learned:

Falcon's punish game is unreal; if you make a mistake at high percent you will either die or be put in an edgeguard situation. A whiffed f smash is a free knee.

Always DI falcon's throws and aerial combos and mixup your tech chasing. If falcon reads your tech options you will be punished. Also, make sure you use combo DI, up and away, as opposed to survival DI, down and towards, to avoid long combos.

A falcon offstage is a dead falcon. Usually you can just grab the ledge for an edgeguard, but if you see that he's going to land on stage, ledgehop dair is a very good option.

If falcon ever grabs ledge, which he shouldn't if you edgeguard properly, then watch out for ledgehop knee, it's the worst

NEVER trade aerials with falcon. If you try to trade with knee you will lose

Falcon will run circles around you and try to bait out an approach or will just approach regardless. don't let flashy movement get the better of you, just take control of the pace of the match. Never play your opponent's game, always fight the match on your terms.

For the rest of the neutral game go with what zenmaioh said. Marth is all about grabs and spacing. This is definitely a winnable matchup for marth, but it's a tricky one

 

[T r a n]

Work on your movement and beat him in the neutral game every single time. Falcon IMO has a better combo/punish game, but your neutral is stronger. I try to aggressively space my dash dance around him, and since most falcon's like space to do their SHFFL approaches, they'll feel uncomfortable with such a short distance and they'll do something punishable. If he rolls or spot dodges, that's all reactable/punishable with a grab. If he attacks you, you can shield then respond with a grab or wavedash out of shield accordingly. You can up tilt his approaches too, but don't do it too much, he might just be baiting you out and punish the lag. If he tries to grab, you just need to adjust your dash dance a little. If he starts to dash dance then you can dtilt to make him respect your dash dance's range. If he tries to work the platform game in neutral, then it's no longer neutral and you have the advantage, since he's now vulnerable to your marth utilt/uair shenanigans.

Once you get grabs off dash dance, I usually go for down throw tech chases. If you're by a ledge and your down throw sends him towards the ledge, you can do a frame trap by turning around and dtilting immediately after your throw (if you're used to doing this against lighter characters, you have to wait a little longer, falcon is heavy). This covers tech in place, no tech, and tech away can be reacted to easily. If he techs in then you get a free grab if you turn back around and you can start the thing over again. You can mix up fthrow regrabs/tech chases as well, especially at 0 if they expect the dthrow instead.

Once you build some percent on grabs/tech chases up to like 40, you can start to up throw instead and do utilt, and up air stuff. Don't spend too much time trying to juggle him though, get him off stage once you think he's at a high enough percent, or just get him off right away if you think you can do it. Falcon is super easy to edgeguard, so it's worth it sometimes to end your big fat combo early. I usually do reverse nairs through platforms or try to corner him with my dash dance and hit him off stage with a fair, nair, or dtilt.

 

[xCraZy]

Falcon is a tough matchup for Marth mainly because Falcon is faster on the ground and in the air. Luckily, your best friend in this matchup is proper spacing. Falcon has even less range than Marth and will inevitably have to get in close to attack. I recommend a more patient style, waiting for him to make the first move and capitalizing on mistakes. Space those aerials and smashes well enough and Falcon will be hard pressed to get hits on you. Remember that Falcon off the edge is god-awful and a well timed d-tilt will likely spell the end for him (even if it doesn't, Falcon will have limited options afterwards). Lastly, Falcon is a fast-faller, which Marth's grabs eat for breakfast, so working on those grabs and tech-chases will make this matchup go much better for you. And since I noticed your profile pic, I can say that Marth's Counter should only be used against Falcon if you are 100% sure it will work. Falcon is just too fast to let a poorly timed counter slide.

Hope this helps ya man! GLHF!

This helps a lot. Thank you! My friend plays a very heavy punish style Falcon and I always fall victim to stomp knees, or just raw stomps. I wil try the waiting game against him. Thanks again!

 

[Roanz]

Don't get read by a knee, nobody likes to be read by a knee.

 

[JediLink]

One thing that I could suggest is learning Sheik as a secondary. A lot of Marth mains I know also play Sheik (myself included). It makes tough matchups like Falcon and Ganon heaps easier.

 

[Mr. Bean]

One thing that I could suggest is learning Sheik as a secondary. A lot of Marth mains I know also play Sheik (myself included). It makes tough matchups like Falcon and Ganon heaps easier.

I refuse to go to the dark side. YOU CAN'T MAKE ME

 

[Syko]

Also, make sure you use combo DI, up and away, as opposed to survival DI, down and towards, to avoid long combos.

Do not do this. Combo DI should down and away from most grabs/aerials and survival di is usually up and in. If falcon grabs you and you di his down throw up and away it's a guaranteed regrab followed by a string of upairs to death. Down and away gets you into a tech chase situation more often and makes it harder to regrab. Getting tech chased is far better to getting juggled. Also, if you di a knee down you will die. Literally the worst di you can do for knee. Also applies to up airs. There are more specific situations obviously where di changes but a general rule is combo di down and away and survival di up and in.

 

[djmath]

Do not do this. Combo DI should down and away from most grabs/aerials and survival di is usually up and in. If falcon grabs you and you di his down throw up and away it's a guaranteed regrab followed by a string of upairs to death. Down and away gets you into a tech chase situation more often and makes it harder to regrab. Getting tech chased is far better to getting juggled. Also, if you di a knee down you will die. Literally the worst di you can do for knee. Also applies to up airs. There are more specific situations obviously where di changes but a general rule is combo di down and away and survival di up and in.

When I wrote that had up airs and knees in mind, for those you don't want to DI down. very true about tech chases for down and away though, I was just using the terms combo di and survival di loosely; big mistake

 

[Guzzler Guzzler]

One thing that I could suggest is learning Sheik as a secondary. A lot of Marth mains I know also play Sheik (myself included). It makes tough matchups like Falcon and Ganon heaps easier.

This is super lame. Don't cop out.

Marth has a lot of good follow ups off of uthrow, for example from ~76-86% he has a guaranteed tipper fsmash regardless of falcon's DI. Kadano posted a chart with every possible follow up off of uthrow in this matchup. Something I really like to do is dthrow tech chase falcon, dthrow -> dtilt is a great option since it will cover the missed tech and tech in place and you can just regrab if they tech in. Also get used to abusing platforms with utilt and uair in this matchup. I recommend watching PPU's set vs S2j from EVO 2014 if you want to watch some high level play of this matchup, also PP m2k from MLG is good as well

 

[JediLink]

This is super lame. Don't cop out.

Hey, don't be hatin'. Sheik is cool.

 

[Mr. Bean]

False. Sheik is not super cool. Sheik is annoying. Except in Ocarina of time. Gotta love that music.

 

[Guzzler Guzzler]

Hey, don't be hatin'. Sheik is cool.

Sheik is cool but it's kind of stupid to tell someone to switch mains when they're asking for advice on a specific matchup that isn't lopsided like IC's Peach

 

[JediLink]

Sheik is cool but it's kind of stupid to tell someone to switch mains when they're asking for advice on a specific matchup that isn't lopsided like IC's Peach

I didn't say switch mains, I said learn a pocket.

EDIT: And I didn't even say that you should or have to, it's just a suggestion.

 

[Mr. Bean]

still, dont do it

 

[Guzzler Guzzler]

I didn't say switch mains, I said learn a pocket.

EDIT: And I didn't even say that you should or have to, it's just a suggestion.

It's a ****ty suggestion. He came to the MARTH boards and you're telling him to play a different character.

 

[JediLink]

It's a ****ty suggestion. He came to the MARTH boards and you're telling him to play a different character.

Well a lot of people do it. I just think it's worth considering. If he's a new player, he might not appreciate the value of counterpicking yet. I don't have much expertise to offer in terms of the matchup, but I'm trying to help OP out in a different way.

 

[Mr. Bean]

Sheik is not fun. i feel super cheap using her

 

[ItWasAMindgame!]

Another note on the DI for Falcon's throws is that you should NEVER DI up and away, you may think that it will let you escape the follow up, but that's just fine with Falcon because he can move very far horizontally through the air. You will get kneed if you DI up and away on his throws (mainly d-throw). A Falcon will be always looking for a punish, so it is safe to expect a d-throw, as it is his most followup-able throw. Like djmath and Syko were talking about, you should DI down and away from his throws and make a safe tech option, after DI-ing his throws for a bit, he will be conditioned to have to quickly follow up because of down and away DI, so, what you can do is suddenly DI a throw down and in; he will most likely run past you expecting the away DI and you might even be able to get a quick attack/grab off. Another random piece of advice that applies for many characters is that you should only use your dash attack at A) a safe time, or B) As a mixup. Do not think that a quick dash attack will catch him off guard while he is dash dancing unless if you are moderately close to him. At a distance, a good falcon will expect an attack and be able to react and punish a poorly spaced attack.
A good basic option against falcon, which no one has mentioned yet, but you probably already know, is up-tilt to d-air.
Also, if you throw Falcon off stage and he is expecting the d-tilt trap, you can quickly steal the ledge by WD-FFing into it (ff = fastfall).
My final piece of advice is also a situational tactic, but if you get a down throw and you are ahead in stocks, your enemy will most likely be hasty and want to get back up on the stage ASAP so they don't lose another stock, to take advantage of this, stay on the stage after you d-throw and do a s-hop d-air, this will kill at 0%! But again, this is a situational mindgame!

 

[Guzzler Guzzler]

Up tilt dair sux. If you get an utilt go for the uair or regrab follow up, if that's not possible then tech chase

 

[linkoninja]

At low percents get a grab and down throw tech chase. Pummel him once or twice in between throws (except at 0%) once you got him to around 50 (I think) you can do up-throw, up-air or uptilt on him. Don't go for long fancy combos just get him off-stage (preferably below the stage) and kill him.

 

[Guzzler Guzzler]

http://smashboards.com/threads/kada...data-application.337035/page-17#post-16635855

 

[ItWasAMindgame!]

Up tilt dair sux. If you get an utilt go for the uair or regrab follow up, if that's not possible then tech chase

Again, a situational move

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

This has always been one of my fav matchups.

First rule: Never/Rarely jump in the neutral. This makes you a huge target and it also means you can't CC falcon's attacks. Stay on the ground, move around, and let Falcon come to you.

Second rule: Stay outside his knee's zone. Imagine where falcon would be if he did dash->shorthop->knee. Either stand closer to him than that or farther away, never in that spot. When falcon moves, know where this zone is moving and STAY OUT. Being closer is generally the better choice, since it forces him to back up (as long as you stay on the ground, he can't use nair to space).

Third rule: When you grab him, pretend you are sheik. Throw falcon, react to whatever tech option he chooses, regrab and repeat. Fthrow and dthrow both work fine for this. DO NOT UTHROW FALCON: you may utilt him a few times, but it is much easier for falcon to DI + jump escpae your combos than Fox/Falco. Just throw him on the ground and tech chase him until he goes near an edge, then throw him off and edgeguard.

 

[Mr. Bean]

Up throw works well after 50 though

 

[Guzzler Guzzler]

uthrowing falcon is good. check my post where i linked the follow up chart from kadanos thread

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Its a red herring. You can utilt and combo him, but you're not guaranteed to kill him. If you keep him on the ground, he has no escape except going off stage, which is death to him.

 

[Guzzler Guzzler]

Tipper fsmash is guaranteed at any DI for like 10 or so percent, and there are a lot of different things you can do to him to rack up damage. Dthrow at the ledge is really good though but I think completely ignoring uthrow is asinine

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I agree with uthrow->fsmash if its a true combo and it will put falcon offstage using his upb. If he can just grab with his double jump then you would've been better off tech chasing him until hes off stage.

You can guarantee falcon doesn't escape your tech chases, you cannot guarantee that falcon won't escape your combos. If you want to consistently kill Falcon from a single grab, keep him on the ground.

 

[Guzzler Guzzler]

Oh also if you uthrow a falcon onto a platform you can utilt and uair him

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Again, you can't guarantee you will do anything other than hit him a few times. If he DIs properly, he can jump to safety after 2-3 hits max.

 

[djmath]

quit being so salty about up throw. Literally look at Kadano's godlike flowchart that covers all the options including f smash finishers. You can't guarantee down throw tech chases either. if you want to play like sheik then play sheik, but I like falcon in the air better than running around on the ground.

 

[Guzzler Guzzler]

you can beat all of falcons moves in the air with uair too lol

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Kadano's guide is for uthrow followups. You are sure to have followups after the uthrow, i've never debated that. But after utilt or uair, eventually falcon gets the opportunity to escape. You may put on 60%, but percent doesn't matter at all. Stock is the only resource that matters. Keep falcon on the ground so he has no option to escape back to neutral, then eventually he will be forced off stage, and then you kill him.

If you haven't noticed, one of marth's biggest weaknesses is comboing the opponent too much. Once they get high enough in percent, you cannot reliably combo into anything that will kill. If you don't accept this and avoid the scenario, you will lose more than you should.

 

[townes]

Sveet I've got the 20XX hack pack where falcon CPU will randomly tech in place, left, right, or no tech, and once he no techs he will randomly get up, roll left, roll right, or wait on the ground for a random amount of time, or randomly get up attack, and after he gets up he will immediately jab. I've tried taking the cpu to FD and tech chasing his ass, but unless you're reactions are godlike, its not possible to tech chase that reliably. If I hit the tech chase perfectly I can get his ass offstage like 1 in 3 times. Or sometimes he just techs in a million times and he eventually escapes so long as he keeps teching in and doing random ****. I've seen the Pewpewu matches especially vs s2j and he tech chases well but even he drops it and even ppu goes for uthrow into combos. All that being said, I'm going to invest my time into practicing tech chasing as oppossed to uthrow combos. But i think do both is the answer.

 

[Guzzler Guzzler]

I would try to get them into a tech chase position when they're backed into a corner so that makes it easier to space against their tech options

 

[Nate$]

Well a lot of people do it. I just think it's worth considering. If he's a new player, he might not appreciate the value of counterpicking yet. I don't have much expertise to offer in terms of the matchup, but I'm trying to help OP out in a different way.

Its a lot better to learn to use a character that covers Marth's bad matchups like Fox.

 

[Guzzler Guzzler]

Its a lot better to learn to use a character that covers Marth's bad matchups like Fox.

>bad matchups like fox

wat

 

[Nate$]

>bad matchups like fox

wat

That was a direct reply to having a Marth main with a pocket shiek. My point was why have the pocket shiek when you can have a Fox and it would cover more problems Marth has. Punctuation game wasn't on point there.