Marth Matchup Thread

[Admiral Pit]

Upon request, we will discuss Marth without a minor summary at the start.

So let's see what Marth has:

-Better Range and priority than Pit (Obviously)
-A Rivaling speed compared to Pit
-Slightly lighter than Pit
-More power than Pit (Watch out for tippers)
-A decent recovery, can stall a bit with Side-B
-A D-air spike
-A great OOS move (Up-B)
-A good edge game


Now let's see what Pit has:
-A projectile
-A Better recovery, though it can easily be opposed by Marth's range
-A set of multi-hit attacks
-Good Ledgecamping capabilities, and edge game
-Poor KO power, even with his sweetspotted B-air

There is nothing else I can say about the matchup atm.

Discussion for Marth starts now.

 

[321BOOM]

I say 60-40 Marth, Marth's ground and air game beats us.
Their Fair beats our Fair. And that's like our best range :<

Our advantage is that we can camp, but it's extremely easy for Marth to close the gap.
Nevertheless, use your arrows to the max. Also, we need to gimp like a mother, that's how we'll win.
Expect to be shielding a lot in this matchup. Stay defensive.

It's not much but it's better than nothing
And here's some recent input I happened to stumble across:

As of marths, stay ranged and fake an approach and then punish accordingly i guess lol.

thats all i can say for now.

Marth is 55:45 Marth. the matchup is very doable as long as you stay smart. PS is a crutial key in this matchup. The 2 main ways a Marth will approach are Dancing Blades or a Fair. if you PS a Fair you can retaliate because you don't slide. against the dancing blades, as long as you have almost all your shield left, if you PS the first hit, you can shield the rest of the combo. If you do get remember to pay attention to which DB combo he does for DI purposes.
Unlike most Chars. we cannot Jab Cancel against Marth due to the Dolphin Dash, but with that you can force some moves by playing against the Marths prediction ability. some mindgames combos, and things to avoid to keep in mind :
Jab into shield - this can make marth player DD trying to predict you.
Fthrow into stutter Fsmash
other then trying to force a DD, DO NOT JAB CANCEL!
be sure to use your arrows like a homo when hes off stage for an edge hog gimp.

Other then whats above just remain smart. Marth is pretty easy to predict. the only thing that makes this matchup kind of difficult is his range and speed compared to marth, so just make that Marth play your game. don't play his.

 

[ShermantheTank]

Be EXTREMELY careful with arrows; Marth can get across about half of Final D in the time it takes Pit to shoot a single arrow. If you try to pew pew pew, you're going to get punished.

As has been said, Marth out-ranges and prioritizes everything we do. This means Pit can't approach, so try to bait Marth into attacks and punish accordingly. Pit's jab infinite works wonders here on a shielded Marth, as does d-tilt and shield grabbing.

Marth's grab standing/walking grab range is pretty big, while his running one is pretty crappy. If Marth starts approaching you by walking, watch out for a grab.

While Marth can't get far off the stage, he's a great gimper by the power and priority of his fair alone. Try to stay above him as much as possible when recovering, or if you have to recover from below. Another option is to bait Marth into a fair by gliding slightly above him, then canceling out of the glide and hitting him with a uair from below.

If you knock Marth up and away, he can potentially use a normal charged B to give him a lot of momentum back towards the stage. You can MS this if you find yourself in a lucky position, but I wouldn't try to force it. You can also MS his side-B and, most importantly, his up-B. Just beware of the speed and angle of it, unless you can read the person you're doing it against well it probably won't happen.

Edit: Left out that you can only use a jab combo on a shielded Marth to poke, otherwise he'll up-B will get you.

 

[321BOOM]

To be honest,
Marth really has nothing against us except range.
Just Powersheild and you're good. Spam arrows and you're good.

edit: not really, but.. it's pretty basic. Marth's priority is annoying.
Not sure how to go through this matchup, so I won't say anything >.<

 

[LaIotun]

To be honest,
Marth really has nothing against us except range.
Just Powersheild and you're good. Spam arrows and you're good.

That could go both ways

 

[6Mizu]

Would any one want vids of Sagemoon vs (like pretty much the best marth).......... MikeHAZE
well here..............
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuvUSjFfTvk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvjk4jsylDM

also, I'll try to get someone over here to help.

 

[Saki-]

Marths Fair > Pits aerial and ground moveset. Approaching him wont be easy against a defensive Marth. What you need to do is get Marth above you, and even then pit cant do much with someone above him. If Marth gets thrown offstage, you can play it safe and spam those arrows, or try and go for the offstage fair or bair AFTER marth dodges, attempting after a Marth's fair or db stall probably wouldn't end well.

Basically like the others stated, you need to pressure Marth and get him to approach you. You can actually have a better chance to get a hit in from an approaching fair than a retreating fair. Watch out for his pivot grab, it has some pretty amazing range, along with his standing grab.

If you find yourself in a position when you're above Marth, find a way to safely get away from him in a defensive, not aggressive manner. We look for an airdodge, or dair from Pit because we can just uair, bair you.

NEVER get up the edge to do the edge attack. It's predictable and will either lead to a tipped fsmash or dolphin slash depending on how we read you. Marth has great ledge trap potential so getting up from the edge shouldn't be easy against an experienced Marth.

<.< this is pretty tough for Pit i'll admit, but it can be doable if you save your fsmashes and time your bairs.

Copy pasta'd from the AA discussion group. So I wont have to type something up twice haha.

 

[321BOOM]

What you need to do is get Marth above you, and even then pit cant do much with someone above him.

We can arrow, Uair, or even Nair if we're close enough
Also if on the ground, Utilt's vertical hitbox could be put to use

NEVER get up the edge to do the edge attack. It's predictable and will either lead to a tipped fsmash or dolphin slash depending on how we read you. Marth has great ledge trap potential so getting up from the edge shouldn't be easy against an experienced Marth.

What would you say about our ledgecamping?
Like seen in the videos 6Mizu posted, when we arrow/fair/uair from ledge.

 

[Phaigne]

The best info I have here is that most of Marth's moves aren't safe on block. So....uhh...block.

 

[phi1ny3]

^Watch out for grabs though, throws by themselves don't do much, but they put you in bad comprimising positions, and also learn all the basic variations of fair methods and how to punish them in his zones.

 

[dualseeker]

Wouldn't Pit's Arrow Looping kind of help here? Arrow Looping usually mindgames people that you are going to hit them and usually results in them getting hit, them sheilding it, or them dodging it. If Marth does any of these things, it would be easier to punish him right? It's also good if the Arrow hit's Marth when your close to him so you can punish him accordingly by the way the Arrow hit's him. But the matchup is a difficult one....... All I can say is Sheild Grab and Chain Throw alot. It's a good way to build up damage.

And one more thing: Don't try to get back on stage by Glide Shifting and attacking.................... It usually ends up with Marth doing DownB And countering your attack. I'd suggest to use this move as a fake out, so when he does DownB you'll have time to get yourself situated in a good position (and maybe even attack him!).

I also think that Wing Dashing would be a good way to get some distance......

Anyways, I think Arrow Looping would be a great help in these match ups. Does anyone else agree? (I hope my advice was helpful ^__^!)

 

[Admiral Pit]

This arrow looping talk really annoys me now. It's NOT going to help in ANY matchup. The arrow loop annoyance is just fancy, for show, NOT meant for the competitive play!
And Gliding towards a Marth would be a regret just for the simple fact that his F-air can out-range.

Now, for fighting a Marth, you're better off being defensive due to Marth's good range. Since him and Pit generally are rivaled in terms of speed (For some reason I think Marth is slightly faster), don't use arrows too much, or you may find Marth quickly to rush towards you.

Your best bet is using Pit's great gimping against him, so try to get him off the stage, but with Marth's range, that won't be an easy task. Plus Marth does have a decent recovery, so just consider it difficult. It's hard to explain at this time.

 

[dualseeker]

This arrow looping talk really annoys me now. It's NOT going to help in ANY matchup.

I was only suggesting this for defensive purposes. I've used it before and have won quite a few matches with it. Especially against characters that are really offensive. I have used it to interrupt attacks before and then counterattack. It's usefull for me though. I just thought it would help ^__^.

And Gliding towards a Marth would be a regret just for the simple fact that his F-air can out-range.[QUOTE/]

And I didn't say (or at least didn't MEAN to say) glide TOWARD Marth, I wanted to say to glide OVER (or in any direction that would promote you getting some distance from him) him at a point where he won't be able to counter attack. But if this is impossible, don't glide. But I do agree with you, as it has gotten me unneeded damage.

Now, for fighting a Marth, you're better off being defensive due to Marth's good range. Since him and Pit generally are rivaled in terms of speed (For some reason I think Marth is slightly faster), don't use arrows too much, or you may find Marth quickly to rush towards you.[QUOTE/]

I agree with you. Camping to long can get any player angry. And angry means that they'll rush you. Hopefully someone will come up with a suggestion for a counter attack.

I don't know if I'm making a good argument, but I hope my suggestions help.

 

[ShermantheTank]

Arrow looping against Marth is a very bad idea. He definitely moves faster than Pit, and in the time it would take you to loop an arrow he'd be in your face. Same reason you don't want to camp too much; Marth is just too fast to allow those tactics.

 

[dualseeker]

Arrow looping against Marth is a very bad idea. He definitely moves faster than Pit, and in the time it would take you to loop an arrow he'd be in your face. Same reason you don't want to camp too much; Marth is just too fast to allow those tactics.

Very true. I just wanted to offer some advice. I've used it against Marth players before, and it helped me (even if it was just a little bit ^__^). It seems that Marth is to fast to let us do anything that would tip the match in our favor. If only there was some counterattack that would let us make Marth regret using his speed. But I don't think anyone has come up with one yet. I hope I was of some help.

 

[Hyal]

My humble opinion. I main Marth, btw.

As you already say, arrow looping isn't a good idea. The principal reason is because of the time that it takes to shoot them, compared of course with the time that takes to Marth to approach. Also, Marth has a very good amount of weapons. Forward-b doesn't work, up-b leaves Pit very exposed to a spike or well, just hit him to cancell the up-b (all of this, of course, if Marth can keep Pit out of the stage, to the point in which he can't do nothing more than his blue wings).

Nair, if I am not mistaked and with good spacing, out-ranges Pits Nair and B-air. Also, down-smash is pretty fast, but lacks range. So, umm, Pit's options are a bit reduced.

But, of course, arrows can be annoying, also Pit's combination of grabs can be problematic. But, with good tech and spacing can be handled. So, umm, I will say, 60-40 in favor of Marth. *runs*

 

[aish]

Arrow looping is completely useless in any match up unless playing for fun D8
My experience with Marth I find doing nair isn't a good idea unless you're facing someone who doesn't know the hit box of nair but at this point a lot do so I find it pretty dangerous to do =/. I don't know how often Marth players usually side b but the ones I face do it quite often so getting used to when you can shield grab out of those is really helpful. I'm told Marth has semi troubles against pit's jab cause it 'sucks you in', so I guess its a fairly ok far away move to keep him away a bit xD

I have a lot of trouble getting back to the stage if I get knocked out about stage height, since I can't really glide up and over marth to land safely my choice is to glide straight or down under but marth always hits me on the way back at those heights D8 currently only face one marth that actually goes off the stage to attack me, others don't usually do it or miss xD

 

[Merce]

Arrow looping is extremely detrimental to Pit in this match up for Three Reasons
1.) The Pit player must actively consider both the movement of the arrow and my movement... leading the pit to make poor decisions based upon my movement.
2.) Marth is quick enough to work through arrows, looping or not. We'll get to you eventually, and by looping them you are slowly your barrage, inviting our arrival.
3.) When an arrow loop does hit... it almost always tends to be when I'm helplessly falling from a missed Up-B .


Your best weapon is your multi hit moves. Over-B is extraordinarily debilitating.
Your down smash is a great punisher...

Don't end up above us.

Try to stage spike us with a falling back air if marth is chillin' on the ledge too long.

Abuse your arrows when we are off stage. Arrow kills happen.... or at least you can force us to recover low to stage spike us...

Your glide attack will get punished if the marth knows the match up.

As a Marth, I find this match up terribly frustrating. I'd say it's 50-50... :/.

 

[Admiral Pit]

Aishi is right. Let's just stop mentioning arrow looping already. It only looks cool, for show, no good in the high levels.

Now, Marth is slightly faster than Pit, and can quickly catch up to him, even when being attacked by arrows. The Pit needs to use arrows sparingly since Marth's speed and range poses a major threat to Pit. The basic Marth spaces with F-air, and that alone is threatening because of its range and spam rate, and it can even destroy arrows.

For the debate on multi-hit moves, Angel Ring is bad. Marth's Up-B comes to play here, should be able to cut through it in no time, should Marth ever get caught in it instead of using his range to knock Pit outta it. For the Infinite Jab, Marth needs to DI outta it, then throw out his attacks, maybe an Up-B too. Now, Marth can't really do nothing against the U-air if he is caught in it, cept trying to DI outta it, though it is very hard to do so. And Pit has basically no use for using N-air in this matchup, so yea.

For recovering, it's only Marth's range that personally hurts, hard to avoid. Trying a glide attack is a regret against a Smart Marth since all he needs is one F-air (or B-air) that outranges all of Pit's moves. If the stage permits it, try gliding under the stage at a very low elevation, not so much where Pit will SD of course. If you are on a stage with no hopes of going under the stage (Both Pokemon stadiums, and YI), then GL trying to avoid Marth. You already know what happens to Pit if he gets hit outta his Up-B, and it's hard to maneuver with a good-ranged character around.
For gimping, Pit to Marth, Marth has his standard mid-air jump, one Side-B to slightly float and stall, Neutral B (Only if he's high up there, where a charged Neutral B will allow him to slide), and Up-B. When Marth is on the ledge, it's hard to surpress him. He can easily just let go and do an F-air, and with that range, he can poke at closeby opponents. He can even try to get on the ledge F-airing. So it is harder than one thinks to gimp him. Pit's best option is to shoot arrows at distance, for Marth's F-air can handle a pursuing Pit, though Marth does have to be cautious with his limited recovery so that he doesn't recover too low.

That's all I can really say atm, but I can round off that it's really Marth's range and speed is what's gonna hurt Pit most in the matchup. Regardless of Pit holding a projectile, again, Marth's speed works here to limit Pit's projectile shooting, and Pit's best option for the matchup is playing defensive, like he does in most matchups.
The matchup is 40:60 Marth's advantage, no more, no less.
Now, if Pit actually found something new that is completely useful, and game-changing, maybe, just maybe, the ratio can change.

 

[SSBA]

agreed, thats exactly what we need, a game changeing option we can use in a fight, that cud maybe bring 50:50? but we may have settle for 45:55 marth.
but more pit options will be nessesary for advancement in his metagame and his matchups, inclueing marth

 

[Phaigne]

I really wish I knew this matchup more, because I totally don't understand why this matchup would be as bad as 40:60. I definitely don't think we have an advantage, but is it really as bad as that?

 

[Admiral Pit]

I really wish I knew this matchup more, because I totally don't understand why this matchup would be as bad as 40:60. I definitely don't think we have an advantage, but is it really as bad as that?

Until we can find ways past his range/speed combination (Arrows could be powershielded or knocked out by F-airs) ,we won't be able to do much. Our own basic spacing method is a combination of F-airs and arrows. Even our F-air is outranged by just about all of his moves. So it isn't as easy as it seems just because we have a projectile.

 

[Phaigne]

Did I say anything about a projectile? Nope.

I just think that yeah, he has range and speed, but we have a lot of tricks up our sleeves and we aren't so slow either. We definitely don't have the range, but it is neither that bad or something we, as Pits, aren't used.

 

[dualseeker]

I agree with phaigne. We do have tricks and have a great way to mindgame people. I don't think we should be giving up hope with this Match up. Marth may have longer range, better counter moves, and better defensive play. But there is always a weakpoint out there. I think if we spend more time on this, we'll be able to find another option that will tip the battle in our favor.

What about this suggestion: What if we use Pit's mirror to deflect his Up B? It works. I've done it a few times and it does kill. What does everyone think about that?

 

[Merce]

The match up is even. My roommate and I main Pit and Marth, respectively.... so I play the match-up every day.

And I hate it.

 

[Saki-]

It isn't about how close you are with your roomate, it's about how Pits in general do against Marths.
It isn't 50:50
Arrow looping doesn't help enough for it to be something to help the matchups to an extent
thats all

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Arrow looping in insignificant overall, a useful setup if you're in a position to do it, but there's usually something better to do... If Marth is close to you, don't ever loop. If he's far away, he'll be running in. Just fire another arrow, puts the pressure on him faster and slows his assault. If he's off stage, snipe him, he suffers for it, hard.

It's a nifty trick but doesn't matter here.

If Marth is spacing himself right, this is hard for us. Pretty much every hit is going to have to be bait and punish, as you will never land a straight hit on a Marth who's keeping his distance. Make him approach you with your arrows, watch for botched spacing and shieldgrab. Jabs and fsmash when he's in close... don't throw a move out if you're not sure it's going to hit, you'll eat a fsmash/fair.

Marth's grab game blows, but he's got decent range on it, and he has shield breaker, so watch out you're not keeping the thing up too much.

60:40 Marth, easy.

 

[CYVE]

I agree with phaigne. We do have tricks and have a great way to mindgame people. I don't think we should be giving up hope with this Match up. Marth may have longer range, better counter moves, and better defensive play. But there is always a weakpoint out there. I think if we spend more time on this, we'll be able to find another option that will tip the battle in our favor.

What about this suggestion: What if we use Pit's mirror to deflect his Up B? It works. I've done it a few times and it does kill. What does everyone think about that?

You have to live with the fact, that Pit is NOT the best chara in the game and that he also has bad Match Up´s like Marth and Meta Gay.

You can MS Meta´s Recovery.. and what? Jeah. It´s still in Meta´s favour.

 

[Hyal]

Oh! I saw the trick of the mirror reflector, and it may sucess the first time, even the second, but with time a Marth will now when to Dolphin Slash. Marth just have to be fast and smart, that's all.

 

[aish]

randomI kinda think arrow looping would be useful if you actually hit 100% of the time (no misses at alllsss 8D) Or do you think it still wouldn't be good even if you hit 100% D8

 

[dualseeker]

You have to live with the fact, that Pit is NOT the best chara in the game and that he also has bad Match Up´s like Marth and Meta Gay.

You can MS Meta´s Recovery.. and what? Jeah. It´s still in Meta´s favour.

I know Pit isn't the best character to play with. But we can work arround that and come out on top. The thing is, is that it's not easy at all. So I think if we can at least research into this, we can come up with something. But yes, Marth does have the advantage. But all that means is that we have to be a little creative and be carefull at the same time. It doesn't mean that it's hopeless or something that you'll never find an easy way to do.