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Marth Matchup. Help!

bubbaking

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The number of combos into knee Falcon has on Samus is disgusting! Think of dthrow>knee to be almost as guaranteed w/ Falcon as dthrow>fair/uair is w/ Sheik. CCing gets you nowhere and all those blasted combos end in KNEE!!! >X-|

Edit: To clarify, the reason I say "CCing gets you nowhere" is that CCing a knee can actually put Samus into a bad position if it doesn't outright kill her, CCing a dair does absolutely nothing, and CCing a nair allows Falcon time to shield (and possibly grab?) before Samus can punish, thus free damage for Falcon.
 

Van.

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^falcon does not have dthrow-knee on samus, and if he does, its only a tiny percent range well below ko percentages
 

BairJew

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The number of combos into knee Falcon has on Samus is disgusting! Think of dthrow>knee to be almost as guaranteed w/ Falcon as dthrow>fair/uair is w/ Sheik. CCing gets you nowhere and all those blasted combos end in KNEE!!! >X-|

Edit: To clarify, the reason I say "CCing gets you nowhere" is that CCing a knee can actually put Samus into a bad position if it doesn't outright kill her, CCing a dair does absolutely nothing, and CCing a nair allows Falcon time to shield (and possibly grab?) before Samus can punish, thus free damage for Falcon.
I'm gonna have to agree with Van I highly doubt that dthrow to knee is guaranteed, it must be in a precentage area which is quite small cause that never usually works due to the floatiness and DI options samus has when dthrow. You basically have to predict where she is going half the time and if you make a mistake there you usually get punished pretty hard.
 

Pi

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dthrow knee is annoying on samus because there are times when i get hit by it, and it almost almost almost seems like it's a legit combo

and other times where i can avoid it

it's probably not a true combo, but a lot of falcon's dthrow knee victims only options are wiggle -> air dodge

but i am fairly certain that falcon can dthrow you into something, like 100% of the time

upair/nair/knee, something
 

McNinja

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Yeah I agree with Pi. Dthrow to uair into things usually work better on Samus than Dthrow to knee.
 

Van.

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Idk guys, I mean falcon is like my 5th alt and I'm not flamiliar enough with his throw animations to claim that I follow up dthrow optimally, but the falcons always complain about "not being able to do anything cool to samus" and also that nearly nothing is garunteed against her. I mean throw-->up air doesn't really have to be a combo, because samus (and most other floaties) don't have hitboxes to challenge falcons upair, but upair isn't going to kill until obscene percentages, and apparently its difficult to get it to follow up into knee also.

Edit: also no offense mcninja but you haven't really mastered the subtle art of pressing away on the analog stick during throws so idt your allegorical evidence is very useful here.
 

Pi

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falcons complain about everything

Van i'm only saying what has happened to me, I dodge the knee more than I get hit by it, but I know i've gotten hit by it very very close to it being a combo

you have to DI falcon's moves all differently to not get combo'd, uair, and nair and knee all require their own DI

so if u guess wrong, u get combo'd,

falcon is gay
 

McNinja

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Does DI-ing away after being thrown really get you out of a Uair? I thought the hitbox on that was too large to have much of an effect?

:phone:
 

BairJew

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Yeah I agree with Pi. Dthrow to uair into things usually work better on Samus than Dthrow to knee.
Problem is you can't really do any combos on samus with throws anyhow. So I guess you could say that "oh dthrow to Uair hit me" but nothing can really follow through after that if the samus player is good and can effectively either DI the throw or DI after the hit properly. SO technically I don't really think dthrow to Uair or Fair is really a combo on floaties or samus in paticular. Just because you get hit by it doesn't mean that it is a guaranteed thing or a combo for that matter lol ;)
 

Van.

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falcons complain about everything

Van i'm only saying what has happened to me, I dodge the knee more than I get hit by it, but I know i've gotten hit by it very very close to it being a combo

you have to DI falcon's moves all differently to not get combo'd, uair, and nair and knee all require their own DI

so if u guess wrong, u get combo'd,

falcon is gay
...what? How would you DI nair differently from uair? Why wouldn't you just do them both away? unless you're talking about some crazy SDIing the first nair hit up to avoid the second hit kind of ****.

Does DI-ing away after being thrown really get you out of a Uair? I thought the hitbox on that was too large to have much of an effect?

:phone:
it isn't about the size of the hitbox, it about getting a little further away so he takes a little longer to get to you so you haver time to get out DJ/airdodge/nair.

none of which would work against Uair imo, except maybe perfectly timed nair
 

Pi

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can't get out of dthrow uair, or probably nair

it's a % thing, van, if u can avoid the 2nd hit of nair u should be okay, but uair is always gonna do work
idk, it just feels weird when falcon hits you with different things

+there's also survival and combo DI


things aren't as black and white as you guys are making them out to be...
 

bubbaking

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I agree w/ Pi on that one. Also, for all those ppl saying Falcon has no combos on Samus. Dair>whatever you want (probably knee) works better on Samus than most characters at low percents DUE to the fact that she's floaty AND she likes to CC (which does nothing at all to stop dair).
 

Pi

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also idk who's saying falcon doesn't have combo's on samus
but falcon has a lot of combo's on samus, they are probably just more specific DI/% than the FF characters

i know for a fact i've gotten bair x3
uair juggled
nair juggled
and his whole moveset into knee before

if we're talking strictly 100% inescapable combo's, then he might have less on samus than he does on others w/ samus perfect DIing
but like i said, things aren't always so black and white
 

bubbaking

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Yeah, Falcon may have less guaranteed combos, but he probably has longer possible ones on Samus. Knee>knee>knee (not a true combo, but still super annoying) is not affected by Samus's floatiness since floatiness does not factor into horizontal knockback. In fact, her place as the 3rd heaviest character may have made the 'combo' even easier to perform. :-s
 

Van.

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can't get out of dthrow uair, or probably nair

it's a % thing, van, if u can avoid the 2nd hit of nair u should be okay, but uair is always gonna do work
idk, it just feels weird when falcon hits you with different things

+there's also survival and combo DI


things aren't as black and white as you guys are making them out to be...
When did i imply that i didn't know the difference between survival DI and combo DI? Obviously you want to survival DI knees if they're going to kill you

also idk who's saying falcon doesn't have combo's on samus
S2J, Mango...



























MM!?!
 

Pi

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^but i'm saying let's say u get hit, and you DI the follow up knee to survive, that's the wrong DI to get out of the combo
but let's say you di a nair or a uair, and they knee you instead, that's bad survival DI

& van i don't MM people who i know i will win against :o
unless i don't like them
 

Pi

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no van i don't not like u
i think you don't quite see the game as i see it just yet, but that's no reason to dislike you
i been there before
just make sure you keep your eyes and mind open to every opinion and try to disect it as if everything has value to it
worse comes to worse you don't gain anything from it, but i think u'll find a lot of peoples opinions/stances have room to learn/grow from them
 

Pi

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no van i don't not like u
i think you don't quite see the game as i see it just yet, but that's no reason to dislike you
i been there before
just make sure you keep your eyes and mind open to every opinion and try to disect it as if everything has value to it
worse comes to worse you don't gain anything from it, but i think u'll find a lot of peoples opinions/stances have room to learn/grow from them
 

Van.

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I like your morales Pi. Van should learn from this.
lol you're the one who won' just man up and loan me a dollar, so i have to mm you

no van i don't not like u
i think you don't quite see the game as i see it just yet, but that's no reason to dislike you
i been there before
just make sure you keep your eyes and mind open to every opinion and try to disect it as if everything has value to it
worse comes to worse you don't gain anything from it, but i think u'll find a lot of peoples opinions/stances have room to learn/grow from them
Maybe you're right, but i at least want to play friendlies with you at advent 3. I'm different now then since WATO, and I've got dozens of hours of samus experience. Idt you'll 3 stock me this time.
 

Pi

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lol you're the one who won' just man up and loan me a dollar, so i have to mm you



Maybe you're right, but i at least want to play friendlies with you at advent 3. I'm different now then since WATO, and I've got dozens of hours of samus experience. Idt you'll 3 stock me this time.
we will for sure get friendlies at advent 3 man
and i will try my hardest to 3 stock you for the first couple matches, after that though i have some techniques that i will probably still be practicing so i will focus on those more

but if u ever want my super try hard samus just ask on a match to match basis
 

McNinja

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^the tourney? that's a safe bet
i've already decided to win advent.
Ah sorry, I meant the match between you and Van. No offense Van, but I don't think fighting my samus over and over again gives you much samus matchup experience lol

:phone:
 

Pi

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i know what u meant lol

van keep that confidence and come at me w/ all you got and i'll do the same
we should both be able to learn something from it :)
 

BairJew

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I think I might pop in on these friendlies against Pi I'll try my Jiggs Samus MU lol
But seriously I'd love to hit up friendlies with you champ. It gets boring playing the same old boring repetitive samus "cough" McNinja, over and over lol :p
 

Van.

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Darn it Pi, not only did you double post, you put the same message up twice! You confused me! (>.<) Lolz, jk.
Thats like hitler complaining about antisemitism

20 bucks on Pi winning!

:phone:
nah but I'll body him

Ah sorry, I meant the match between you and Van. No offense Van, but I don't think fighting my samus over and over again gives you much samus matchup experience lol

:phone:
Maybe matchup experience isn't the right term. I basically got more efficient at comboing a human samus from playing you. plus i learnt laser grab :) (even tho' its very unlikely I'll play falco at advent)

its true tho', your samus is not legit at all. Idt why i would be offended by that tho'?

i know what u meant lol

van keep that confidence and come at me w/ all you got and i'll do the same
we should both be able to learn something from it :)
I'm looking forward to it man :)
 

Pi

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sure bairjew, i have some jiggs experience but it's been a while, help me shake off some rust, i'm gunning for hbox this tourney.
 

bubbaking

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Is the Jiggs vs Samus MU really still 7:3? I feel like it's closer than that. Maybe 6:4? Idk, I just feel like it's somewhat easy to zone Jiggs w/ missiles and spaced aerials, even though a Jiggs in close is pretty scary and off stage she's a complete monster. I'm certain those "innocent" eyes are hiding some kind of a diabolical mind. >:-|
 

Pi

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jiggs samus is one of those MU's that i'm still unsure about

plup beat Hbox not to long ago (in swiss, got beat in GF)
and i've never really struggled against jiggs like i do vs. sheik, or even falcon

but i've also never fought, including hbox, a jiggs who continuously spaced bairs the whole match, and never over-commited to attacking

right now the only openings i see to reliably punish jiggs are ones that she doesn't have to make, so unless i learn more about the matchup it's something i won't be able to say for sure one way or the other
 

McNinja

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Yeah I agree. The few times I have fought a legit jiggs, she didn't seem that scary. Especially compared to Marth or Falcon.

:phone:
 

bubbaking

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^ Dem's da truth! You're absolutely right, Pi, when you say that most Jiggs over-commit to attacking and expose themselves, but to be honest, I've never seen even professional Jiggs refrain from such aggressiveness. It's like they're high on some sort of "predator shark" weed. @_@

One thing I do know is that Samus's utilt and bair outspace ALL of Jiggs options. Utilt especially can kill Jiggs really early. The only problem is the startup time for utilt and sweetspotting/just hitting w/ bair. I know another really big problem for Samus is her lack of priority for things below her, while Jiggs uair is strong (like most of her aerials), has high priority, and kills Samus relatively early. I try to space w/ MCs and nairs but in the end, Jiggs can bair the missiles (and you) and shield your aerials (and all your attacks) really easily w/out having to fear a grab. She can't crouch under Samus's grab, luckily, but that's irrelevant, cuz if we miss...BLAM!

Remember how Samus's heavy weight (low horizontal knockback) combined w/ floatiness (high vertical knockback) makes Falcon's knee>knee>knee easier cuz it doesn't hit upwards at all? Well, the same logic makes Jiggs' wall of pain so much easier to do. Recovering is kind of hit-or-miss. Jiggs can come around and eliminate the bombs while you're bomb jumping but this is only a serious problem on really big stages like DL and KJ64, which won't be legal anymore, come 2012. :'(( I usually don't like playing on those stages against Jiggs since Samus has a hard enough time killing ppl already. On smaller stages, where bomb jumps aren't quite so necessary, it's a guessing game as to whether Samus will recover high or low. That's mostly it. Jiggs can't really kill w/ much other than bair, fair, or uair, so unless she's waiting for you on the stage, Samus plays the evasion game while recovering, avoiding bombing when Jiggs is close, and punishing wrong guesses w/ nair, uair, upB, even dair (although, I don't think that's a good idea). Oh yeah, on certain percents, I think Samus gets a guaranteed dthrow>charged shot on Jiggs, but......that requires a grab. <.< Come to think of it, even if you don't have a charged shot, dthrow=nair=big knockback on a Jiggs.

This is what I've managed to pick up so far from my experiences against the Jiggs players here on the Island that is Long. Hope it helped, maybe a little.
 
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