Marth 2013 updates?

[Pugwest]

We all know the game is constantly changing and play styles are changing also, with that being said I personally think the Marth Boards should be revising on our "Worst Mu's" Discussing methods in more depth of how to play a specific match.

We Have Meta Knight, which we all know is extremely gay and takes out the true potential of marth until his moment kicks in.

Diddy Kong, which can be argued even or even an advantage to us if we shut down his Naner play.

And Finally D3, the power shield grabbing ftilting pain.

Im not saying we should only just revise these three matches for 2013 but we should start here to help improve the marth community. I dont see many D3's anymore but they are still around.

The Last time this thread was updated, was in 2010.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=186736

Quite a few things have changed, while some matches do still remain the same.

Thoughts?

 

[IceArrow]

I definitely think Marth players have very little experience in the DDD MU since there are no DDDs. The Marth Boards need to rediscuss some matchups.

 

[ScareMl]

DK and Sonic are also pretty tough MU's for marth imo.

DK's bair, f-tilt, etc. beat out a lot of our moves and we need 10 hits for his one to keep it even lol. One good grab, one-good read, one-good lucky smash, one gimp can end us pretty early while he's not that easy to gimp and it takes forever to kill him.

Sonic is just...********.

 

[smashkng]

Yeah, but DK gets punished severely too if those moves miss. His moves aren't safe at all. You can even shield grab his Ftilt ( he keeps his hurtbox extended for a long time). And DK getting grabbed is very bad news for DK, as that set ups juggles or strings. We juggle DK very hard and once we hit him we can combo him almost forever. His recovery isn't hard to spike at all, and if he gets spiked he's gone. His recovery is extremely linear and being on the ledge is very bad for DK too, especially if he's at 100%+. It is true that he kills us very early and has the ability to outrange us, but it's still a lot easier for us to land hits on him than viceversa. His lack of disjoints is still a huge problem for him. I'd say Marth slightly wins. The best strategy on him is pressuring him and leaving him without space to move. His OoS is very lacking outside his frame 8 shield grab (which makes it easier to Fair into buffered Up b or spot dodge against him) and to make things worse for him, his shield is extremely easy to poke. He has to rely on hard reads to kill us early, don't let him set up those extremely early KO moves and you should be fine in the MU. We also don't want to get grabbed because he can cargo Dthrow us offstage and put us in a bad position. A good thing to know however is that holding UP on the control stick allows us to break a lot earlier from the cargo. In neutral position, try to avoid overcommiting with moves like retreating Fairs, that's what DK wants you to do. Let him commit first and punish him hard for that.

 

[Pugwest]

Honestly the Dk match up is pretty easy to me, once you get in on him its juggle nation and remember we can abuse his upB recovery with our invincibility frames or counter. Gimping him is easy and after 100% he has a difficult time recovering without that basic A recovery on ledge.

If he cargo throws us for a stage spike just practice your techs, im positive we can tech the stage spike.

 

[IceArrow]

DKs back air completely destroys Marths favorite move. DK also juggles Marth better since DK can just DI towards the ledge when he is being juggled. Marth has an extremely difficult time killing and DK can kill Marth very early. Also Martha can't ever use Up-B because if he missed DK has an amazing F-Smash to kill. DK wins 55:45

 

[smashkng]

DK's Bair has lots of range, but it's NOT safe on block and can be baited and punished. It doesn't save him from being really easy to juggle. Saying that Marth shouldn't use Up b because he gets punished with an Fsmash if missed is not a good explanation. In EVERY MU we get punished hard for missing up b. So a good Marth will know when Up b will hit. DI does help DK (just like everyone else) to escape from strings, but considering how huge and heavy he is, he is still comboable. We could also DI towards the edge when he tries to combo us, right? And easier because we're smaller and lighter and better GTFO moves. Marth isn't great at the ledge, but like I said before, DK has a far worse time at the edge than we do IMO.

 

[IceArrow]

I think DK has the best ledge game in the game. If I am DK I would just DI away from the ledge and Up-B towards the ledge. And besides Ics, DK has the best punish from a missed up-b. Maybe ddd or ike but DK can kill from 50%. But ya a Marth should know when to Up-B.

 

[C.J.]

Expect a very detailed response to a lot of things in about 3 hours. But so far, there's just a lot of general wrongness.

 

[IceArrow]

Lol, wrongness? I don't use either character but I need to learn how to beat Marth. And what I am saying is generally correct.

 

[C.J.]

No, it really isn't.

 

[smashkng]

DK is good at planking, but at getting off the ledge, he's low tier. His only pretty reliable get up is his get up attack below 100% (and even that is like -40 on block, so if gets shielded then Marth can punish it with anything he wants). Above 100% where is only 1 stage where he can really get off the ledge (YI thanks to invicicopter). Marth can ledge trap him extremely hard. Being on the ledge against Marth is really bad in general, especially if you're DK. 50% is a bit too early. He can kill Marth Fsmash at more like 60 or 70% with Fsmash IIRC, but if the Marth is tricky with his Up b he will have to read where Marth lands in order to punish him (though Dsmash can still do work because it covers both sides). But still his Fsmash is really slow so it requires a hard read to hit Marth with that. TBH DK strong kill moves are all telegraphed except Bair, which is usually very stale, and Uair, both which don't kill until about 120% (the Bair being FRESH) or maybe even higher.

Edit: Near the edge and with optimal DI (which is easy to react with because DK's Fsmash has a lot of hitlag), you can survive it up to about 75% when fresh. His fully charged Punch, however, near the edge, with optimal DI and fresh kills below 70%.

 

[IceArrow]

CJ, I am generally correct. And no need to be rude. Im just trying to help Marth mains.

 

[1PokeMastr]

You can Jab the invincicopter because it's not transcendant and Dk's up retains its normal priority when grounded. As for planking, Dk can plank super well, his "perfect plank" is similar to Marth's dolphin slash regrab, it's really hard to punish.

Dk's bair isn't safe on block when it's not retreated with a dash.
Dash away + sh bair is safe.
Sh bair + retreat = unsafe.

If it's not the former, you can punish it with sh nair or Fsmash Oos, if Dk bairs into you, go nuts, Usmash Oos (Only if you can hit with it) really hurts Dk.

Now.. I would argue that Dk juggles better than Marth does Dk; because of Dk's damage output and his frame traps hit harder than Marth's such as Bair -> Punch frame trap against your air dodge, or Bair -> Uair vice versa, and that Dk's dair beats Marth's Uair (Really difficult for Dk to time).

But Dk is really punishable and has very limited options when in the air, which what hurts Dk the most.

Now.. Dk's Oos game is pretty amazing in my opinion.. U-Tilt/ Jab/ Sh Up B are frames 12/ 12/ 10, which is a way to punish a misspaced fair. However, if you do a non retreating Fair against Dk, he can Dsmash Oos, if he Ps's a landing imperfect fair (tipper) Dk can do the very same thing.

If he Ps's a retreating Fair, he can punish with F-Tilt Oos.


As for spiking Dk out of his Up B/ edge guarding him, it's really easy. Dk's only option to counter being edge guarded is to keep his jump/ stall when he'll up b/ stall during his Up B so Marth will mess up the timing.

Dk has pretty nasty things against Marth as well off stage, with the perfect plank from Dk, and player timing, Marth would end up being gimped, or put in RCO. Dk also has the option to grab the ledge just before Marth Up Bs, hopefully forcing Marth to land on stage, which Dk can punish with a ledge hop Uair/ Bair or a Ledge hop wave bounce punch :3

As for killing.. Dk will only ever kill Marth at 50% with a 9 Wind, which is the only move Dk needs a hard read to land.
Dk's Dsmash is an incredibly viable option for killing Marth, better than Uair/ Bair/ Punch because it's and amazing punish, killing Marth at 80 - 90%.

Fsmash can be used to outspace Marth's Nair, as long as Dk reverse stutter steps it and you over commit to using Nair to approach/ Ledge hop.
Dk can bait/ punish Marth just as well as Marth can bait/ punish Dk, so the bait/ punish argument isn't the best~ :3

Such as.. If Marth does a full hop Fair, Dk can punish with full hop Uair Oos, assuming he blocked it, which sets Marth up to be juggled and it does 14% fresh.

I'll wait for CJ to post, then I'll make a post again when I have time.


I play both these characters, and it's my most experienced Mu with Dk. So I know it really well.
In my personal opinion I think it's +1 for Dk, but from results, frame data, etc. It's even.
And listening to what I've said/ know.. it leans toward even anyway.

:3

 

[Raziek]

Oh hey stuff about DK? I can post about this!

+1 DK is wrong, you're not getting grabbed enough.

Bigger post when not in class.

 

[ScareMl]

Lol, wrongness? I don't use either character but I need to learn how to beat Marth. And what I am saying is generally correct.

dude what? you don't use either character, so you clearly don't know as much as us about up-b and other MU-related things. You can't blindly say you're correct when you don't even have experience playing either character. I agree with you that DK is very tough for marth, but a lot of your reasons are wrong.

 

[IceArrow]

What am I saying that is wrong and correct it.

 

[clowsui]

DKs back air completely destroys Marths favorite move. DK also juggles Marth better since DK can just DI towards the ledge when he is being juggled. Marth has an extremely difficult time killing and DK can kill Marth very early. Also Martha can't ever use Up-B because if he missed DK has an amazing F-Smash to kill. DK wins 55:45

Bair doesn't beat fair head to head if spaced well. Trades at best (though trades are in DK favor). P easy to space fair v DK though

DK gets ledge trapped HARD vs Marth. He should eat a ****load of damage. If you're skilled enough DK can get trapped on the ledge for more than half his stock

It doesn't matter that Marth takes a long time to kill if he just has to hit DK over and over. Marth doesn't die too easily to DK either. Maybe if you're bad and get hit easily.

Lolololol @ upB thing. I can tipper famash you if you whiff something too!!!!!

Here was your mistake. You came in with absolute confidence that you were generally right about the characters and their MU then ran to 'I have to learn how to beat marth' as an excuse. Nice try dude.

 

[C.J.]

We all know the game is constantly changing and play styles are changing also, with that being said I personally think the Marth Boards should be revising on our "Worst Mu's" Discussing methods in more depth of how to play a specific match.

We do this, all the time, in the Q&A thread, social thread, and skype group.

Diddy Kong, which can be argued even or even an advantage to us if we shut down his Naner play.

No, it's just even. Arguing it any better is a practice in futility.

And Finally D3, the power shield grabbing ftilting pain.

This MU is a task in fundamentals. I don't really go about playing the MU any differently than I did when I made my guide.

The Last time this thread was updated, was in 2010.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.p...s advantage. It's even though so whatever.

 

[C.J.]

I will MURDER EVERYONE who ever asks me for advice vs DK that I covered in here.

Oh, my apologies for it taking longer than I thought it would. I got caught up playing Melee.

 

[IceArrow]

Dude, im just trying to help you guys. Also everything you just said is incorrect. DK spacing correctly beats Marth. Absolute confidence, where the hell did you see that? A DK won't constantly get hit by Marth either. A DK never has to get off a ledge. Come back with real information and stop attacking me for trying to help.

@clownsui

 

[clowsui]

just read cj's post lol. he goes into way more detail and is definitely right

 

[C.J.]

Raz- You didn't really cover trapping landings if he chooses not to go to the ledge though, and nothing on grabs.

Me- uugghhhh
oh well
Those are just exempt from my murdering everything clause

Either Raz will post on those, they're allowed to be asked, or someone should format all of that into a style akin to my other guides and then I'll complete those sections before posting it.


EDIT: Hi Hunter, hi Rei, hi Vishal!

 

[Pugwest]

Yea Cj we just covered Dk lol, something that was asked upon an outsider of our boards.

Good read though, cant believe i read everything and I see what you mean with the whole crouching thing. Crouching is actually really good vs some matches which is interesting, especially those who are approaching from the air.

 

[1PokeMastr]

For Fair.. I meant rising non retreating/ slow fall tipper fair/ cross up fair.

The tipper is punishable with Dsmash Oos on Ps and the others are without Ps.

For the F-Tilt Oos with Dk, aimed up of course.
Marth does have -22 or so on a tipper Fair, could be more.
But I think Dk has to dash in so he catches the tipper with a Dash -> Ps, rather than a standing Ps.


Sorry for the late reply! I was out for the rest of the day ^-^;

Also, Marth's Uair is a nasty landing trap.
Like.. super nasty.
Like.. nasty nasty.
I hate it as Dk.


And Dancing blade goes without saying.
Move is broken.

 

[C.J.]

For Fair.. I meant rising non retreating/ slow fall tipper fair/ cross up fair.

The tipper is punishable with Dsmash Oos on Ps and the others are without Ps.

For the F-Tilt Oos with Dk, aimed up of course.
Marth does have -22 or so on a tipper Fair, could be more.
But I think Dk has to dash in so he catches the tipper with a Dash -> Ps, rather than a standing Ps.

Okidoki- Marth's should be still FFing fair even when retreated, although obviously many don't. Assuming they do slow fall it, then yeah, I can see the ftilt OoS working on PS.

 

[reslived]

C.J. knows his **** and he's not afraid to show it O_O. I've thankfully never run into a DK in tourney (no one plays DK in MD/VA) but I'm glad I have some references if I do. shieldgrab = best friend.

On the Sonic matchup... Yea I have no idea how to play it. Got obliderated by a Sonic at my last tourney. So fast. So many cancels. I feel like with any amount of good reactions you can shut him down, but other then just having match experience I'm totally lost.

 

[Pugwest]

C.J. knows his **** and he's not afraid to show it O_O. I've thankfully never run into a DK in tourney (no one plays DK in MD/VA) but I'm glad I have some references if I do. shieldgrab = best friend.

On the Sonic matchup... Yea I have no idea how to play it. Got obliderated by a Sonic at my last tourney. So fast. So many cancels. I feel like with any amount of good reactions you can shut him down, but other then just having match experience I'm totally lost.

More or less the sonic Mu is a spacing test because quite a few of ur moves have priority over his. You can also practice grabbing sonic out of spin dash too, it helps.