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Marriage Equality? My experience

T8TO

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I'm just curious in knowing the opinions of my fellow Smashers. Do you think the ruling given to us by the Supreme Court was just? Do you think your rights or freedoms have been taken away by this act? I've been having to hear a lot of negativity towards this subject since day one. I live in a very southern area, and the viewpoints here are as you can only imagine. On the 26th my wife and I literally had to travel just to get married, even though the law had changed. The courthouse where we live, along with several others in our state were refusing to give out licenses for WEEKS because they said it went against their beliefs. People were being outright denied marriage licenses because the employees didn't like same sex marriage. At one point when calling courthouses to ask before making the journey one woman said "we aren't issuing any, in fact we are seeking legal council." What the hell?! My point is that at this moment in time it is their job to do so, and it is also the LAW.

Either way this should be less about me groveling and more about your opinions.
 

Sucumbio

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I live in Mississippi and you're pretty much right in terms of sentiment although the whole flag thing is kinda overshadowing it now. And to be fair, the gulf coast communities where I actually live (Biloxi area) are much more tolerant than up in the delta region. But that said, there is definitely no recourse for a county courthouse should they have an ethical issue with the SCOTUS ruling. And so if a clerk does refuse they basically open themselves up for litigation. The ACLU, States AG offices, and other groups have established hotlines for people to call should they run into a rogue courthouse or judge that's acting against the law. So far it's been a non-issue in Mississippi.
 

T8TO

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As far as I know, at least in the county where I reside, things have FINALLY been taken care of. I figured you might have a little resistance in Mississippi, but who knows. I live in Texas, and other than the younger crowd, most people are against it.
 

Pachinkosam

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,and other than the younger crowd, most people are against it.
Yeah the baby boomers are like that,my parents are baby boomers they have old ideas they see gay marriage a bad thing.
 
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T8TO

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Yeah the baby boomers are like that,my parents are baby boomers they have old ideas they see gay marriage a bad thing.
Yeah :/ even our families (big surprise) but still. More friends congratulated us than our family
 

Planet Cool

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I live in Texas, and on the day of the ruling, I heard fireworks outside all night. Given my state's reputation as extremely conservative, I found that surprising but refreshing. I haven't run into anyone frothing at the mouth about gay marriage, though I've no doubt they're out there (a friend's dad in particular is probably still fuming). Personally, I'm happy for all my queer* friends and neighbors. The ruling was perfectly fair and long overdue.

* It's my understanding that "queer" is acceptable now, as a catch-all term for non-straight people. Correct me if I'm wrong.
 

T8TO

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I don't like the term queer, but I guess it's from personal experience. I'm unsure if it's the proper word to use or not, if it is you know more than I do. :)

As far as Texas I've noticed the majority of hate is coming from small towns. When we went to Dallas to get married there were no protestors, no problems, no slurs or anything like that. Everyone was incredibly nice, even the judges that married everyone.
 

Jiggsbomb

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I do not live in the united states. But I think that the ruling from the supreme court was just. I think that people should be allowed to marry who they love. But I also think that this ruling from the supreme court was used as a distraction for more important things (Like the TPP).
 

sovereigntea

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I live in a state where its been legal so nobody here really cares although it is adorable to see conservatives saying that marriage should be totally out of government hands. I find it adorable that they are just jumping from one island to another as the sea of change is rising. I agree that government should be entirely out of people's personal affairs but I believe that marriage laws are indispensable since marriage confers upon both parties certain rights and property stipulations (thanks Cicero), not to mention different tax considerations.

Yes the Supreme Court is aloof and not elected but that is by design (see Federalist Paper #78). The Court has to make unpopular decisions from time to time. Laws need to be able to adapt and change to evolving realities or else the whole system will fall by the wayside.

I also think there is a certain power in marriage EQUALITY. A lot of people are saying that marriage is strictly religious (wrong) and that government can't redefine what it means. Many of these people are fine with "Civil Unions" and have nothing ostensibly against homosexuals. Of course I am always eager to remind people of the "separate but equal" ruling that segregated schools. You can't have two separate institutions (marriage and civil unions) and expect straight and gay couples to be treated the same. There is power in language.
 

Planet Cool

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I've seen "queer" used as a neutral term on Tumblr, the website that reminds people not to say "spook" on Halloween because it was totes a racial slur in the 1800's u guize, so I'm assuming it's now acceptable. It was definitely homophobic when I was in middle / high school, though, so I try not to use it.

But I also think that this ruling from the supreme court was used as a distraction for more important things (Like the TPP).
The government will finally extend a basic human right to the 12ish% percent of our citizenry that had arbitrarily gone without it until last month. What part of that isn't important enough for you?
 

Spak

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Quite honestly, I've always been against homosexuality. I'm a Christian (Baptist) and it's always been clear to me that homosexuality is immoral, from the examples of Sodom and Gomorrah, it being called an "abomination" (Leviticus 18:22: "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."), and references to those who are homosexuals going to Hell (1 Corinthians 6:9-11: "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,").

With that said, this is a country of religious freedom, meaning I can't force this opinion onto anyone. If you want to be in a relationship with someone of the same gender, I have no power to stop you. I do believe that shop owners should have the right to serve whomever they want, however. Cases like this, this, and this shouldn't happen. Their refusal to support gay weddings and follow what their religion calls them to do is ruining their lives. Separation of Church and State is an integral part of the USA's concept (which is why I am forced to allow homosexuality in our society), but the government is overstepping their boundary by preventing Christians from following the teachings of the Bible.

On a separate note, the government is trying to take away the freedom of speech from our pulpits. A bill that could be going through very soon would cause churches who speak out against homosexuality to pay a new property tax for their buildings. Essentially, Christians are being put out of business, taxed "Special" taxes, and threatened because we are exhibiting our first amendment rights.

P.S. I'm from NC, so southerner opinion here, too.
 

Planet Cool

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While I'm not one to pick a fight or start an argument, I'm also a Christian and I don't believe for a second that anything consenting adults do in the privacy of their bedrooms is any reason to fear for their immortal souls. I think we should keep in mind that we can only understand the Word of God as filtered through our fallible human brains, and that we're liable to contaminate it with our prejudices when we try to put it down on paper, especially in less enlightened times.

Prejudice against gay people is older than any extant religion. I remember reading somewhere that the earliest human tribes shunned homosexuals because they didn't have children, which meant they didn't contribute to the numbers and strength of the tribe. A primitive perspective for a primitive time, and one that we should have long outgrown. If our picture of Jesus is even slightly accurate, I strongly doubt he would have condemned homosexuality (the topic isn't addressed in the Gospels at all). To me, homophobia is an abomination, and counter to his teaching.

If an American business in 2015 is refusing to serve gay people, that's discriminatory and a breach of civil rights. The government is right to stop them and punish them. If you can't put "No blacks" or "No Irish" on your storefront, you can't also put "No gays." It's only fair.

Spak and others like him are certainly entitled to their thoughts and feelings on the matter - like he said, free country. But I felt I needed to provide an alternate perspective from somebody no less Christian.
 
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T8TO

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I have a lot to put towards this debate, but I'm currently on break at work and would rather have more time to express my thoughts. Hopefully in a few hours I'll be able to get back on the SmashBoards and address a couple of things. Also thanks for all the feed back guys.
 

Spak

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(the topic isn't addressed in the Gospels at all).
I already gave you three examples where one is an example of a city that was destroyed because of their sexual immorality and the other two straight up say that it is an abomination and that they are not going to inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. I don't see how you could interpret that any other way.

If an American business in 2015 is refusing to serve gay people, that's discriminatory and a breach of civil rights. The government is right to stop them and punish them. If you can't put "No blacks" or "No Irish" on your storefront, you can't also put "No gays." It's only fair.
This isn't valid because being Irish isn't a sin. This just goes back to the previous point, of which I have evidence and you don't (other than the picture you painted of Jesus based upon your own feelings, not an analysis of what he said).

If you can prove me wrong, I would gladly revoke my statements; I've gotten threatened in real life for my views, so having an online discussion is no problem for me. I'm looking forward to any evidence that you find.

EDIT: Oh, I forgot to mention that the only reason the first two refused was because then they would be contributing to a marriage which is considered an abomination in their view of Christianity. The third story I just looked up something like "gay business refuse" to see if I could come up with more stories to link. The first two actually had the homosexuals as customers numerous times before, but the businesses didn't feel comfortable associating with a ceremony that is called marriage, yet defiles what their scriptures say marriage is.
 
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Lichi

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This isn't valid because being Irish isn't a sin. This just goes back to the previous point, of which I have evidence and you don't (other than the picture you painted of Jesus based upon your own feelings, not an analysis of what he said).
Separation of Church and State is an integral part of the USA's concept
So what is it now? When Christians apply their holy laws to discriminate homosexuals, you want this to be legal because it is Christian religion. But as you said yourself, religion (Church) is not part of the state, they are separated. So why would the state then adjust it's legislation to the needs of a single religion?
Also, the word 'sin' is a religious term. There is no 'sin' for non-religious institutions (like legislatives). Therefore it cannot be taken as a basis for legislation.

Gotta love how Christians still cherry pick their Bible verses though. Let's take this and that, and see these passages as strict rules to live by, but forget about passages that seem unpractical.
Do not forget, the Bible, at least for Catholics, is the true word of God. It is not something people invented, but it was directly written by God through the hands of men. How can you hold some parts of it to such height that it shall be seen as the ultimate reference for what is right and wrong and in other cases completely disregard it?

Anyway, to me, Christianity and it's churches are like a club. Clubs are allowed to have rules, and these rules can be as arbitrary as the club likes. So, if a church does not want to wed two men or two women because their book says so, so be it. But if you are just a Christian working somewhere non-religious, you are not allowed to enforce your club-rules there.

Funny, how the U.S. got populated with people on their search for religious freedom, made it a christian country and try to enforce their religion on others even when they're clearly not allowed to.
 

Jiggsbomb

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I've seen "queer" used as a neutral term on Tumblr, the website that reminds people not to say "spook" on Halloween because it was totes a racial slur in the 1800's u guize, so I'm assuming it's now acceptable. It was definitely homophobic when I was in middle / high school, though, so I try not to use it.



The government will finally extend a basic human right to the 12ish% percent of our citizenry that had arbitrarily gone without it until last month. What part of that isn't important enough for you?
The goverment wants to destroy american, japanese, canadian, vietnamese, austrailian, malaysian, Bruneian, Chilean, Singaporean, New zealandian, etc etc sovereignty. Not only that, the internet as we know it would be destroyed and about 40% of the worlds gdp would go down the drain. Plus, slavery would be instituted in the united states and all the other countries. FDA, Medical, and work standards would become even lower. And corporations would become the new goverment (Implying that they aren't already) Etc, etc, etc. Their are a lot more important things then Gay marriage to worry about. Frankly, in this context, I don't give a damn about gay marriage. Please, spread knowledge, read up on the tpp.

http://www.exposethetpp.org/TPPImpactsYou.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnC1mqyAXmw

http://www.naturalnews.com/050450_TPP_Obama_Congress.html

http://imgur.com/v4lB1rM

Gay marriage really isn't that important now.
 

Spak

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So what is it now? When Christians apply their holy laws to discriminate homosexuals, you want this to be legal because it is Christian religion. But as you said yourself, religion (Church) is not part of the state, they are separated. So why would the state then adjust it's legislation to the needs of a single religion?
Also, the word 'sin' is a religious term. There is no 'sin' for non-religious institutions (like legislatives). Therefore it cannot be taken as a basis for legislation.
I phrased that part poorly, and tried to correct it in an edit. I realize that the government should have stepped in on case 3 because it was just everyday life that Christians were turning away homosexuals (that would count as discrimination), but the other two cases that I already knew about and I didn't just find in a google search to get a third link were specifically denying marriage of the homosexual couple. Biblical marriage is between a man and a woman. Had God created two women in the garden of Eden and joined them in marriage, had he created two women compatible to bear a child by natural means, there would be no reason to deny homosexuality. It's condemned throughout the whole Bible, however, so many conservative Christians are against the idea.

The freedom of religion works both ways; the government can't force a religion on people, and people can't force a religion on other people. In the cases I listed, the government was forcing the people to not perform their religious rights and ruined their companies because of what they believe. I'm not saying that homosexuality should be outlawed, I'm saying that people should have the choice to not provide their services to a wedding that spits in the face of their God's word, and direct them to someone else who would.

Gotta love how Christians still cherry pick their Bible verses though. Let's take this and that, and see these passages as strict rules to live by, but forget about passages that seem unpractical.
Do not forget, the Bible, at least for Catholics, is the true word of God. It is not something people invented, but it was directly written by God through the hands of men. How can you hold some parts of it to such height that it shall be seen as the ultimate reference for what is right and wrong and in other cases completely disregard it?
Some Christians do that because they want to live their lives just as they were before they got saved, but I find it odd that you generalize something about someone you don't know anything about. Some pieces of scripture were intended to be illistrations or are hyperbolas so that the point could get across, some scriptures from the Old Testament (sacrifices and the such) don't apply to us anymore because Jesus came, some are stories that we get main principles from, some mean different things depending upon the context they are in, and a lot of the Bible I take literally.

The Bible is the true word of God and we try our best, in our imperfect states, to interpret what it says. That's why there are so many different Protestant denominations, but at least we don't tell people in our sections what to believe and if you don't believe it then you aren't a true Protestant (unlike the Catholic Church and their catechism). I also happen to know that the catechism speaks against homosexuality, so it's a pretty widely-held belief among Christians.

Anyway, to me, Christianity and it's churches are like a club. Clubs are allowed to have rules, and these rules can be as arbitrary as the club likes. So, if a church does not want to wed two men or two women because their book says so, so be it. But if you are just a Christian working somewhere non-religious, you are not allowed to enforce your club-rules there.
Who said you can't take your religion into your workplace if you are the boss of the company? It may not be the smartest business decision as you would be turning away some people because of your public religious affiliation, but one should have the choice how to run their business.
 

Lichi

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[...]
Some Christians do that because they want to live their lives just as they were before they got saved, but I find it odd that you generalize something about someone you don't know anything about. Some pieces of scripture were intended to be illistrations or are hyperbolas so that the point could get across, some scriptures from the Old Testament (sacrifices and the such) don't apply to us anymore because Jesus came, some are stories that we get main principles from, some mean different things depending upon the context they are in, and a lot of the Bible I take literally.

The Bible is the true word of God and we try our best, in our imperfect states, to interpret what it says.
That's why there are so many different Protestant denominations, but at least we don't tell people in our sections what to believe and if you don't believe it then you aren't a true Protestant (unlike the Catholic Church and their catechism). I also happen to know that the catechism speaks against homosexuality, so it's a pretty widely-held belief among Christians.
[...]
I am sure, as a Christian, you know about Peter?
Prophecy of Scripture
12 So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have. 13 I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body, 14 because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15 And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things.

16 For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” 18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.

19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.


To me, this sounds like there is no room for interpretation. The Bible is God's direct will, and therefore counts as it is written.
 

Spak

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To me, this sounds like there is no room for interpretation. The Bible is God's direct will, and therefore counts as it is written.
That's talking about the Prophet's (writer's) interpretation, not the reader's. I was talking about how we have to try to interpret what God has told us on modern-day issues that aren't specifically addressed in the Bible (of which homosexuality is addressed and people just tend to ignore that part for some reason). I completely agree with the statement that all scripture is God's word on paper (unless you count the Catholic Bible's Apocrypha which I don't believe to be inspired by God, but I digress).
 

Lichi

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That's talking about the Prophet's (writer's) interpretation, not the reader's. I was talking about how we have to try to interpret what God has told us on modern-day issues that aren't specifically addressed in the Bible (of which homosexuality is addressed and people just tend to ignore that part for some reason). I completely agree with the statement that all scripture is God's word on paper (unless you count the Catholic Bible's Apocrypha which I don't believe to be inspired by God, but I digress).
Okay, the Bible is to be interpreted by humans then. Not everything written should be understood as it is printed word for word, right?
 

Spak

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Okay, the Bible is to be interpreted by humans then. Not everything written should be understood as it is printed word for word, right?
If it's clearly intended to be an exaggeration (like: if thy right eye offend the, pluck it out and cast it from the) or an illistration, then it's reasonable to interpret the passage non-literally, as we would all have one eye if we took that word-for-word. A majority of scripture, however, is to be taken literally.
 

Lichi

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If it's clearly intended to be an exaggeration (like: if thy right eye offend the, pluck it out and cast it from the) or an illistration, then it's reasonable to interpret the passage non-literally, as we would all have one eye if we took that word-for-word. A majority of scripture, however, is to be taken literally.
Where is the line that separates exaggerations/illistrations from literal meaning?
 

Spak

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Where is the line that separates exaggerations/illistrations from literal meaning?
That's where the reader's interpretation comes in. An event that happened in history (Sodom and Gomorrah, for example) is never exaggerated and is usually shown as an example for future generations to learn from (otherwise God wouldn't have put it in the Bible), but parables are meant to show principles (where the illustration bit kicks in). There is only one right interpretation of God's Word (what God intended us to get out if it) and I'm pretty confident that nobody actually has it completely figured out, but I try to be as close as possible to what His word says. I'm closer to the Fundamentalist side, but that just means that I take a majority of the Bible literally.
 

sovereigntea

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"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"
Until that time just legalize gay marriage and let people who subscribe to different worldviews be happy...
 

Spak

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"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"
Until that time just legalize gay marriage and let people who subscribe to different worldviews be happy...
Fun fact: that passage is based upon forgiveness, despite your cherry picking verses out-of-context. If that passage were meant as you are using it, anyone would be able to kill thousands and go completely unpunished in a Christian society. I don't have the rights to make gay marriage illegal because of separation of Church and State, but I can inform others about its sin nature and its consequences.

Also, I failed to make this clear earlier when referencing 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, but like any sin, homosexuality is a sin that you can be forgiven of.
 
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The freedom of religion works both ways; the government can't force a religion on people, and people can't force a religion on other people. In the cases I listed, the government was forcing the people to not perform their religious rights and ruined their companies because of what they believe. I'm not saying that homosexuality should be outlawed, I'm saying that people should have the choice to not provide their services to a wedding that spits in the face of their God's word, and direct them to someone else who would.
Fundamentally, do you agree that it makes sense to consider homosexuals a "protected class" much in the same way african-americans are? Disregard your religion for the moment, I'm talking straight-up secular legal system. Does it make sense to treat them as a protected class?

If so, then any claim that private businesses have with regards to excluding homosexuals is nonsensical. We didn't allow this with interracial couples, and we shouldn't allow this with gay couples. If you open a business in the public market, you should expect to serve the public market. It is not a violation of religious freedom in any meaningful sense to ensure that people are not being discriminated against.

Fun fact: that passage is based upon forgiveness, despite your cherry picking verses out-of-context. If that passage were meant as you are using it, anyone would be able to kill thousands and go completely unpunished in a Christian society.
Jeffrey Dahmer converted before his death. Is he in heaven?
 

Spak

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Fundamentally, do you agree that it makes sense to consider homosexuals a "protected class" much in the same way african-americans are? Disregard your religion for the moment, I'm talking straight-up secular legal system. Does it make sense to treat them as a protected class?
No, because acting upon homosexual desires is a choice. Being of a certain skin or nationality is not.

Jeffrey Dahmer converted before his death. Is he in heaven?
Only God knows, but if he sincerely confessed his sins and put his trust in Jesus, then yes.
 

Infinite901

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No, because acting upon homosexual desires is a choice. Being of a certain skin or nationality is not.
Religion is a choice, but most people agree that that different religions can count as protected classes. How is that different?

(also wanna point out that being gay isn't a choice but you picked your wording well so w/e)
 

Planet Cool

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(of which homosexuality is addressed and people just tend to ignore that part for some reason).
Let me tell you the reason. Most citizens of the civilized world (Christian and otherwise) don't condemn gay people for an innate personal preference that hurts literally no one because that would make them bullies and bigots, which they are educated enough to not want to be. They don't enjoy attacking, harassing, hurting, and generally souring the lives of others. In other words, they're good, decent people who love their neighbors as themselves. (There might be something about that in the Bible; I forget.) I believe that God is good, and while I have, at times, been a mean-spirited asshole, I don't pretend he wanted me to.

Of course, you're free to keep making conflict, promoting evil, and being a bigot. Free country. But don't expect an increasingly educated, maturing world to respect you for it. Speaking as a former r/atheist, if you ever get the good sense to be ashamed of your behavior and the conviction to move forward and become a better person, I've no doubt God will forgive you.

T8TO, please remember that Christians are not your enemies. Bullies and ignoramuses are. The two are not mutually exclusive.
 

Spak

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Religion is a choice, but most people agree that that different religions can count as protected classes. How is that different?

(also wanna point out that being gay isn't a choice but you picked your wording well so w/e)
Sorry, I was doing a quick reply between episodes of DS9 and responded incorrectly.

Yes, they should be a protected class, but someone shouldn't be forced to aid in performing what is viewed as a bastardization of a sacred ceremony (ordained by God to be between a man and a woman) in their religion. I'm all for allowing them to use services of fundamentalist Christians before or after marriage because either the deed hasn't happened yet or the deed is already done.

Let me tell you the reason. Most citizens of the civilized world (Christian and otherwise) don't condemn gay people for an innate personal preference that hurts literally no one because that would make them bullies and bigots, which they are educated enough to not want to be. They don't enjoy attacking, harassing, hurting, and generally souring the lives of others. In other words, they're good, decent people who love their neighbors as themselves. (There might be something about that in the Bible; I forget.) I believe that God is good, and while I have, at times, been a mean-spirited *******, I don't pretend he wanted me to.

Of course, you're free to keep making conflict, promoting evil, and being a bigot. Free country. But don't expect an increasingly educated, maturing world to respect you for it. Speaking as a former r/atheist, if you ever get the good sense to be ashamed of your behavior and the conviction to move forward and become a better person, I've no doubt God will forgive you.

T8TO, please remember that Christians are not your enemies. Bullies and ignoramuses are. The two are not mutually exclusive.
I'm not condemning gay people, I'm telling everyone that it's a sin, much like stealing or adultery, which can be confessed and forgiven of if they ever have the fortune of getting to know God in their lifetime. If someone says "Well, your argument doesn't apply to me because I'm not a Christian", then good for you and go on your merry way because it's legal with zero chance of that changing. You can now live your life as you want with who you want, but my whole point of posting here was that Christians who have beliefs that we stand up for (even when it's not convenient or easy), who are being punished for upholding their religious rights.

There is something about loving your neighbor as yourself. As a matter of fact, I have a pretty close bisexual friend. He knows my opinion on his sexual orientation, I've told him all of this before, and we are still friends. Just because he's bi doesn't mean I don't like him, it just means that he has another sin to work through in his life (although he's not trying because he's agnostic); the saying "hate the sin, love the sinner" comes to mind.

I'm not the one promoting evil; I'm providing a viewpoint from a certain background. I firmly believe everything that I have said on this thread and my only regret is how long I've spent typing this reply to a reply from my post which is basically just bashing me for stating my opinion. Also, nobody has proven me wrong on the Bible speaking against homosexuality, mainly because they can't. God has lots of things he has forgiven me for, but I doubt he would have to forgive me for speaking His truths. You're just taking the offended PC standpoint; if your being offended doesn't scare me down from speaking God's truth, your argument can't hold water.
 

Infinite901

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Yes, they should be a protected class, but someone shouldn't be forced to aid in performing what is viewed as a bastardization of a sacred ceremony (ordained by God to be between a man and a woman) in their religion. I'm all for allowing them to use services of fundamentalist Christians before or after marriage because either the deed hasn't happened yet or the deed is already done.
In other words, it's okay as long as churches aren't forced into the process? (I might be misinterpreting it because it's 11:15 pm but I think this is what you mean) In which case, surprisingly enough I actually agree with you. Speaking as someone who is in fact bisexual, I really don't have much of a problem with a church turning me down for a marriage. (I mean, I'm borderline agnostic but that's not the point.) Point is, I actually agree with your ideal as to what "religious freedom" and "separation" mean, because despite not agreeing at all with anti-gay ideals, I can respect if a religion wants to uphold it's own values.

(that is, of course, I'm interpreting this right)
 

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In other words, it's okay as long as churches aren't forced into the process? (I might be misinterpreting it because it's 11:15 pm but I think this is what you mean) In which case, surprisingly enough I actually agree with you. Speaking as someone who is in fact bisexual, I really don't have much of a problem with a church turning me down for a marriage. (I mean, I'm borderline agnostic but that's not the point.) Point is, I actually agree with your ideal as to what "religious freedom" and "separation" mean, because despite not agreeing at all with anti-gay ideals, I can respect if a religion wants to uphold it's own values.

(that is, of course, I'm interpreting this right)
This is exactly what I've been trying to get across for the past 1,770 words (discluding this post).
 

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Spak, I'm not taking the "offended PC standpoint." I'm taking the standpoint of someone who doesn't like it when people (especially historically downtrodden people, like gays) are treated unfairly, and it hurts me double that someone of my own faith is using said faith as an excuse to defend oppressors like those baker bigots. Homophobia has a history steeped in human prejudice and social politics, independent of any religion; I don't think it comes from God. His messages, if we're to be aware of them at all, must be filtered through human minds and written by human hands - remember that, it's important. It's been thousands of years since the earliest books of the Bible were written; it's okay to evolve and change our attitudes and perspectives in that time (in fact, it'd be foolish not to), especially if it means we're treating each other more fairly and learning to get along with bigger and bigger groups of people, in spite of our differences. You don't sound dumb or intentionally malicious, Spak - do you really think God has a problem with that?
 
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Spak

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Spak, I'm not taking the "offended PC standpoint." I'm taking the standpoint of someone who doesn't like it when people (especially historically downtrodden people, like gays) are treated unfairly, and it hurts me double that someone of my own faith is using said faith as an excuse to defend oppressors like those baker bigots. Homophobia has a history steeped in human prejudice and social politics, independent of any religion; I don't think it comes from God. His messages, if we're to be aware of them at all, must be filtered through human minds and written by human hands - remember that, it's important. It's been thousands of years since the earliest books of the Bible were written; it's okay to evolve and change our attitudes and perspectives in that time (in fact, it'd be foolish not to), especially if it means we're treating each other more fairly and learning to get along with bigger and bigger groups of people, in spite of our differences. You don't sound dumb or intentionally malicious, Spak - do you really think God has a problem with that?
In response to the first part:
Prophecy of Scripture
12 So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have. 13 I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body, 14 because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15 And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things.

16 For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” 18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.

19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
For the second part, I don't think that God calls for homophobia. Homophobia is:

ho·mo·pho·bi·a
ˌhōməˈfōbēə/
noun
noun: homophobia
  1. dislike of or prejudice against homosexual people.
God loves everyone equally, so of course he wouldn't call for the dislike or prejudice against homosexual people. He does call, however, for everyone to confess their sins. Homosexuality is a sin according to the Scriptures (which according to God, was not influenced by the Prophet's interpretations of things), so I'm trying to show my stance on the situation based upon my knowledge of the Bible. If you still don't believe that homosexuality is a sin (even though I already gave 3 places where it outright states it), I guess that we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I'm going to bed because it's like 1 in the morning and I have to be up and eating breakfast in 7 hours. Good night.
 
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No, because acting upon homosexual desires is a choice. Being of a certain skin or nationality is not.
But it's not about acting on it. Homosexuals being a protected class would obviously extend to their relations, much in the same way "Black" being a protected class would lead to black marriages or interracial marriages being protected.


Only God knows, but if he sincerely confessed his sins and put his trust in Jesus, then yes.
Fun fact: that passage is based upon forgiveness, despite your cherry picking verses out-of-context. If that passage were meant as you are using it, anyone would be able to kill thousands and go completely unpunished in a Christian society.
anyone would be able to kill thousands and go completely unpunished in a Christian society.
Whoops.
 

Spak

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But it's not about acting on it. Homosexuals being a protected class would obviously extend to their relations, much in the same way "Black" being a protected class would lead to black marriages or interracial marriages being protected.







Whoops.
To the first point: look up about 5 posts and you see that I typed the wrong thing in-between episodes of DS9, then corrected it in a later post.

To the second point: what were you trying to say with "Whoops"?
 
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To the first point: look up about 5 posts and you see that I typed the wrong thing in-between episodes of DS9, then corrected it in a later post.
Ah.

Yes, they should be a protected class, but someone shouldn't be forced to aid in performing what is viewed as a bastardization of a sacred ceremony (ordained by God to be between a man and a woman) in their religion. I'm all for allowing them to use services of fundamentalist Christians before or after marriage because either the deed hasn't happened yet or the deed is already done.
Good news: nobody's doing that. They didn't do it for interracial marriage in the 50s and they're not doing it for gay marriage in the now.

To the second point: what were you trying to say with "Whoops"?
Christianity does allow us to go completely unpunished for committing mass murder...
 

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Just gonna say sexuality and race are two separate things. I understand where some of yall coming from, but keep it in mind.

IMO. As a minority, I think it stupid af, when people wanna compare the two together. But whatever I guess.
 
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Spak

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Good news: nobody's doing that. They didn't do it for interracial marriage in the 50s and they're not doing it for gay marriage in the now.
Bad news: people are. Look at the first two links in my first post and you will find instances of people forcing bakers and florists to provide for marriage, then ruining the shopkeeper's lives for denying service because of religious objections.
Christianity does allow us to go completely unpunished for committing mass murder...
Nope.
 
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