Mario's Viability

[BTmoney]

This thread is here specifically to discuss Mario's viability in tournament settings.


People seem to be really high on him why is that? As of right now I only play PM friendlies (and I focus on melee singles) so I can't tell you although I play some Mario. What exactly is so different about him vs the rest of the new and allegedly more hostile cast that he is now a "great" character in a lot of peoples' eyes when before he was underwhelming (in melee)? His neutral game isn't any better than Doc's was comparatively or objectively due to him having a worse projectile (and I think Doc's nair was more useful) and apparently the new meta is more violent.

His recovery is ridiculous though, he has a million mixups and can cover good distances.


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Random questions that can also be discussed:

One of the things I would like to know is who the best Mario player is currently.

I've also heard some talk of his dair, people speak highly about it like Fox's dair, although they are obviously dissimilar, but I would like to know what about it so so good.

 

[Studmonger]

I'm no P:M developer, but basically what they did was take all the best things from both Mario and Doc, then put them into one character. He has the power and trajectories of Doc, with the recovery, speed, and combo ability of Mario. His midrange game seems similar, though it feels like he wins at midrange more often with less gimmicks. Also most everyone in my competitive community believes Mario's fireballs are considerably better in P:M for keep away and for covering approaches.

Mario has a lot of little changes that add up. He retains his difficulty to combo from Melee, meaning staples like Fox's up throw up air don't actually work on him. At the same time he has more combo potential with moves such as his down air being fixed with enough hit stun to allow for follow ups in many cases. Also Mario's d throw to up air true combos on the entire cast well into the 100% range.

Along with his obviously improved recovery, Mario's gimp game is much better too. His cape is probably the most ridiculous move he has now. Going straight up as fox or falco used to guarantee that cape couldn't kill you, but now it pushes you away slightly, making it so you have to DI properly (with reversed controls for a significant time thereafter) to get back. So at best it is a 50/50 guess as to which way you'll have to DI. It also turns around moves it didn't used to, such as fox illusion and falco phantasm. Did I mention that it goes through your shield? If there is something that objectively makes Mario's midrange game better, it's his cape. A huge disjointed move that can be used during a jump that turns you around and goes through shield? Your opponent either has to give up space, or be facing which ever direction you want them to when you approach. It's kind of ridiculous. Several characters lose all their out of shield options to jump in cape.

 

[Daftatt]

Not to mention his cape also has a very long lasting reflection hitbox. I main mario in PM and my friends hate him, he is a combo beast, with his dash attack to bair or fair or up air or down b. He just has a million ways of sticking to you and beating you to submission. Also, my friend, a fox main, is now terrified to illusion since I will cape him into a special fall. With cape gliding and his down b he has much much better horizontal recovery as well. Comboing into fair is also a fantastic kill, even against jiggly puff who usually is the **** train in the air.

 

[Shell]

This thread is here specifically to discuss Mario's viability in tournament settings.


People seem to be really high on him why is that? As of right now I only play PM friendlies (and I focus on melee singles) so I can't tell you although I play some Mario. What exactly is so different about him vs the rest of the new and allegedly more hostile cast that he is now a "great" character in a lot of peoples' eyes when before he was underwhelming (in melee)? His neutral game isn't any better than Doc's was comparatively or objectively due to him having a worse projectile (and I think Doc's nair was more useful) and apparently the new meta is more violent.

His recovery is ridiculous though, he has a million mixups and can cover good distances.


------------------------------------------------------------------------

Random questions that can also be discussed:

One of the things I would like to know is who the best Mario player is currently.

I've also heard some talk of his dair, people speak highly about it like Fox's dair, although they are obviously dissimilar, but I would like to know what about it so so good.

We did make some small but important adjustments to Mario's neutral game for v2.6:

Mario's PM Fireball, as of v2.6, has KB / Stun / DMG stats as good as Doc's pills, and a trajectory / bounce that's a bit between the two, arguably useful in more scenarios than either. Furthermore, with the nB endlag reduction in v2.6 you can toss out Fireballs safely at closer distances, equally useful for covering approaches or harassment as the situation requires. The combination of all of these things add up to a noteworthy neutral game buff -- not really sure how you got the impression it was objectively worse, but if there's still something about it you don't understand or think is worse let me know and maybe I can clear that up.

Also new to v2.6, Mario's grab range is a smidgeon larger and his DD range is a bit bigger. DD -> JC grab leads to a lot for Mario, so this is pretty helpful.

The last v2.6 neutral game tweak would be D-tilt, which has lower cool-down, an intangible shin, and more favorable set-up KB. It can function as a decent poke, or running dash-cancel d-tilt can catch some people DIing away from Uair combos.

So, the combination of Fireball, DD / Grab, and D-tilt add up to some small but significant neutral game refinements just for v2.6.

But even before v2.6 PM Mario was better than Melee Doc or Mario. For one, he's using Mario's Land-lag values, boosting his frame advantage vs. shield slightly and making him a little bit faster while SHFFLing. Having access to the ranged / disjointed fire F-smash is a really big deal for his neutral spacing game for several matchups. Once he gets a hold of people he can combine Mario's combo potential with Doc's KO potential for punishes that are significantly harder than either one would've been able to pull off alone.

Dair is just a great move. The startup hits can break CCing pretty well, it combos into an array of other moves, and it has a very potent invisible disjoint below his feet which carves through a surprising number of attacks.

 

[Viceversa96]

We did make some small but important adjustments to Mario's neutral game for v2.6:

Mario's PM Fireball, as of v2.6, has KB / Stun / DMG stats as good as Doc's pills, and a trajectory / bounce that's a bit between the two, arguably useful in more scenarios than either. Furthermore, with the nB endlag reduction in v2.6 you can toss out Fireballs safely at closer distances, equally useful for covering approaches or harassment as the situation requires. The combination of all of these things add up to a noteworthy neutral game buff -- not really sure how you got the impression it was objectively worse, but if there's still something about it you don't understand or think is worse let me know and maybe I can clear that up.

Also new to v2.6, Mario's grab range is a smidgeon larger and his DD range is a bit bigger. DD -> JC grab leads to a lot for Mario, so this is pretty helpful.

The last v2.6 neutral game tweak would be D-tilt, which has lower cool-down, an intangible shin, and more favorable set-up KB. It can function as a decent poke, or running dash-cancel d-tilt can catch some people DIing away from Uair combos.

So, the combination of Fireball, DD / Grab, and D-tilt add up to some small but significant neutral game refinements just for v2.6.

But even before v2.6 PM Mario was better than Melee Doc or Mario. For one, he's using Mario's Land-lag values, boosting his frame advantage vs. shield slightly and making him a little bit faster while SHFFLing. Having access to the ranged / disjointed fire F-smash is a really big deal for his neutral spacing game for several matchups. Once he gets a hold of people he can combine Mario's combo potential with Doc's KO potential for punishes that are significantly harder than either one would've been able to pull off alone.

Dair is just a great move. The startup hits can break CCing pretty well, it combos into an array of other moves, and it has a very potent invisible disjoint below his feet which carves through a surprising number of attacks.

Shell are you guys planning on adding the up-b cancel doc had in Melee? It was an extremely hard technique to master but it was a magnificent Oos option if mastered.

 

[leelue]

As much as it would be cool, the last thing I want is for there to be More crazy hard ATs to learn...

 

[Nemiak temp]

The up-b cancel would be a great idea for PM mario, idk how to support that other than why not?

 

[arata18]

The up-b cancel from what I know is still present in PM Mario. I believe there was a discussion about it in the technical skillz thread in this forum. I believe that it is still possible, but harder to perform if I remember correctly from what I have heard.
On the subject of tourament viability I strongly believe after playing against a large portion of the cast in friendlies with players better than I am and worse than I am all of the changes that they made to Mario, as well as the combination of the best of both mario and Doc from Melee make Mario a viable tournament player. he has the combo game to give any character hassles. Decent speed and priority. Plus, with the changes they have made to him, he has quite a few good options in almost any situation that I have come across to deal with. He can edgeguard anyone because of his op cape, fair, bair, and now even more dair shenanigans. I also like Pit and I would say that they are at least on the same level due to similar comboability. Pit's arrows are a little bit better than the fireballs unfortunately.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

We did make some small but important adjustments to Mario's neutral game for v2.6:

Mario's PM Fireball, as of v2.6, has KB / Stun / DMG stats as good as Doc's pills, and a trajectory / bounce that's a bit between the two, arguably useful in more scenarios than either. Furthermore, with the nB endlag reduction in v2.6 you can toss out Fireballs safely at closer distances, equally useful for covering approaches or harassment as the situation requires. The combination of all of these things add up to a noteworthy neutral game buff -- not really sure how you got the impression it was objectively worse, but if there's still something about it you don't understand or think is worse let me know and maybe I can clear that up.

Also new to v2.6, Mario's grab range is a smidgeon larger and his DD range is a bit bigger. DD -> JC grab leads to a lot for Mario, so this is pretty helpful.

The last v2.6 neutral game tweak would be D-tilt, which has lower cool-down, an intangible shin, and more favorable set-up KB. It can function as a decent poke, or running dash-cancel d-tilt can catch some people DIing away from Uair combos.

So, the combination of Fireball, DD / Grab, and D-tilt add up to some small but significant neutral game refinements just for v2.6.

But even before v2.6 PM Mario was better than Melee Doc or Mario. For one, he's using Mario's Land-lag values, boosting his frame advantage vs. shield slightly and making him a little bit faster while SHFFLing. Having access to the ranged / disjointed fire F-smash is a really big deal for his neutral spacing game for several matchups. Once he gets a hold of people he can combine Mario's combo potential with Doc's KO potential for punishes that are significantly harder than either one would've been able to pull off alone.

Dair is just a great move. The startup hits can break CCing pretty well, it combos into an array of other moves, and it has a very potent invisible disjoint below his feet which carves through a surprising number of attacks.

I am surprised there have been so many small tweaks that not many people will have known about. Hell, I did not even know there were so many differences between Mario and Dr.Mario for melee such as Landing lag.

I am quite surprised by the power of small and simple changes all pile up to effectively give you a fairly decent character.

 

[Mario Speedwagon]

I've been messing around with the new D-tilt and I love it. it sets up wonderfully for sh->fair combos in the upper 50% for most of the cast.

also it feels like the mario hit on fair is easier to hit with now? maybe I'm imagining things and just missing with the doc hit

 

[Alex Night]

Mario's pretty darn viable now if he wasn't already so in 2.5b. The awesome thing is that he is still a perfect character to use to learn the basics and advanced techs if you are new to Melee or Project M or just Smash Bros in general. I think his Melee description fits in Project M better as his capability is reflected by the skills of the actual player.

 

[Shimesaba]

The up-b cancel would be a great idea for PM mario, idk how to support that other than why not?

Now that Doc has made it to PM (kind of), can we put this back on the table? I love throwing Up-B cancels into my OoS game in Melee. I don't care if Leelue thinks it's too hard.

..And while I'm asking for changes, I think incorporating part of Doc's lateral uptilt hitbox into PM Mario's uptilt would be cool. Similar to how you've included the Doc hitbox on parts of Fair and Usmash.

 

[Viceversa96]

Now that Doc has made it to PM (kind of), can we put this back on the table? I love throwing Up-B cancels into my OoS game in Melee. I don't care if Leelue thinks it's too hard.

..And while I'm asking for changes, I think incorporating part of Doc's lateral uptilt hitbox into PM Mario's uptilt would be cool. Similar to how you've included the Doc hitbox on parts of Fair and Usmash.

I like that idea also. They say they've added EVERY good aspect of Doc which isn't true at all. Anything else you want to list that still needs to be taken from Doc?

 

[Shimesaba]

I like that idea also. They say they've added EVERY good aspect of Doc which isn't true at all. Anything else you want to list that still needs to be taken from Doc?

Those are the main ones, and honestly Up-B cancel is primarily because I enjoy using it rather than because Mario really needs it... I think that's valid, though. Up-tilt I actually miss for practical reasons.

But since you asked, one other tiny thing I'd like would be the option to not float up so much when caping in midair. When Melee Doc capes, he hangs a bit, but doesn't gain much height. This has two bonuses: 1) when you have to jump to cape a recovery, you land more quickly, which is helpful if you need to follow the cape up with another attack, or if you miss the cape. And, 2) Doc's cape offers a lazy way to get to the ledge for a hog - do a running jump off the stage, cape back towards the stage, and drop onto the ledge. PM Mario's aerial cape physics don't work very well for this.

Two ways of implementing this would work for me - 1) make it like Jigglypuff's rising pound where you input up-B and then hold up to float upward, or 2) make it so that if you hold B for longer, you get the Mario float, and if you tap-and-release B quickly, you get the Doc version. I'm not sure if either of these are actually possibilities for the PMBR.

 

[Viceversa96]

That sounds cool. Sucks that Mario isn't represented at many P:M tournament's. I think I saw him place high only once before he disappeared

 

[MrM]

I been thinking about going to tournament's that are local for me if i do attend i'll do my best to rep guys

 

[Nausicaa]

D-tilt, which has lower cool-down, an intangible shin, and more favorable set-up KB. It can function as a decent poke, or running dash-cancel d-tilt can catch some people DIing away from Uair combos.

This is pretty funny. I never really considered Marth-style Dash > D-Tilt as a Neutral poke/pressure/combo-converting option that was ever worth doing with Mario until PM, and it just keeps getting better with every patch.

I was really hoping for Doc's D-Tilt to be an eventual addition first playing, but it has grown on me a lot as more than just the D-Tilt > U-Smash kill-combo at high-% on some floaties in unique instances.

Otherwise, Mario still needs to get in and lock-down the opponent to function. That's still his weakness, regardless of the help he gets in Neutral.

 

[Viceversa96]

I been thinking about going to tournament's that are local for me if i do attend i'll do my best to rep guys

How big is the tournament scene in your area?

As much as it would be cool, the last thing I want is for there to be More crazy hard ATs to learn...

lol Leelue, don't you main Sonic? Didn't know you had a pocket Mario.

 

[MrM]

not that big for pm here in cali sadly its all brawl and melee

 

[Viceversa96]

not that big for pm here in cali sadly its all brawl and melee

That blows lol.

 

[esoterics]

That sounds cool. Sucks that Mario isn't represented at many P:M tournament's. I think I saw him place high only once before he disappeared

Hungrybox uses him: http://youtu.be/waecagfyJ7M

 

[Viceversa96]

Hungrybox uses him: http://youtu.be/waecagfyJ7M

That set was awesome.

 

[GMaster171]

I am getting top 5 at my monthlies (3rd in last 2 tournies) going half Mario.

just as a btw

 

[CyberZixx]

Mario is exceptional. Not sure why he don't have more placements or tournament players.

 

[GeZ]

I finally got to get some sets in today against my friend who plays Ness, and another guy I met at the place I was playing who plays Fox and Falco. I think Mario has the tools to flatten Ness, and compete well against the space animals to boot. A well timed Bair can kick the Space animals Up B's out of existence and the cape on illusion is freaking FREE.

 

[Nausicaa]

It's getting to them ON-STAGE, without getting caught out yourself, that really matters.

 

[GeZ]

Yeah, I know, I think that that's actually not as bad as it was in melee because of Mario's new fireballs, along with the slight nerf the lasers got, I feel like Mario has a little easier time closing the distance while also not having to sweat damage racking up as he tries to make his way in. Less damage you're taking for working your way in a bit more slowly and meticulously.

 

[HeroMystic]

Mario is exceptional. Not sure why he don't have more placements or tournament players.

Probably because no one ever expected he'd be a top-end character. He's easily A-tier. Once he gets hyped more (Big House 3 helped with this a lot), we'll be seeing a lot more Marios.

 

[Fortress]

Mario's my favorite member of the cast, personally. He's got some nice recovery options, a good offensive and pressure game, an excellent wavedash, and some strong finishers. Not only that, but his attacks can chain together pretty easily, and he's got some excellent mix-ups.

It's a tough call between him and Link, as I play them both, but there's something that's pretty satisfying about playing Mario.

 

[Viceversa96]

Mario's my favorite member of the cast, personally. He's got some nice recovery options, a good offensive and pressure game, an excellent wavedash, and some strong finishers. Not only that, but his attacks can chain together pretty easily, and he's got some excellent mix-ups.

It's a tough call between him and Link, as I play them both, but there's something that's pretty satisfying about playing Mario.

Mario's a sexy plumber.........buuuuuutttt I still want my up-b cancel and melee up smash animation (for nostalgia). Oh does Mario have Doc's ******** cape hitboxes? I love that ****.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Why exactly would mario need his up-b cancel? I see no reason whatsoever that mario should have that, considering he is such an amazing character. I mean he already has wall jump out of up-b, which even that I think is unnecessary, isn't that enough?

 

[Viceversa96]

Why exactly would mario need his up-b cancel? I see no reason whatsoever that mario should have that, considering he is such an amazing character. I mean he already has wall jump out of up-b, which even that I think is unnecessary, isn't that enough?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWMDcnbPgy0&feature=youtu.be That's why. Real talk

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Yeah its cool I guess, but does he need it? Just because its cool isn't a reason. Mario certainly doesn't need any help with his combo ability on the rest of the cast, nor does he need a space animal like way of escaping pressure. Not trying to be rude, but this thread is about mario's viability, and mario is clearly a viable character. So this addition is completely unwarranted imo.

 

[SoulPech]

Mario is good enough as it is. Too good actually. I would make no changes honestly.

 

[GeZ]

But Mario's current iteration strives to be a mixture of the best parts of Melee Mario and Doc, so while it may not be needed, it would be a nice touch fitting the theme of his design in this game. I get what you guys mean with Mario not needing anything, but I think the same could be said for a lot of properties and tools on a lot of characters. Giving characters bits of flavor is what diversifies the cast. They could have made Ivysaur not heal while charging solar beam. The healing isn't totally necessary or important to her game. Toon Link's milk taunt could not heal him instead. Lord knows it doesn't really serve a purpose in it's current form. Falcon Punch could not be reversible.
The point is these are all diversifying factors for the cast and its characters. I think that Up B cancel on Mario would be sweet. I don't think it would be gamebreaking, or even change many aspects of his match ups. I don't think it's even a good option for the distance it covers and the counters it has.
Instead I think it's like Jigglypuffs WDing, or the damaging hitboxes on Bowser's chomp taunt, or even the inclusion of FOOTSTOOLING. It's fun, adds another facet to this insane multifaceted game, but doesn't ruin any aspect of it by existing.

 

[Viceversa96]

Yeah its cool I guess, but does he need it? Just because its cool isn't a reason. Mario certainly doesn't need any help with his combo ability on the rest of the cast, nor does he need a space animal like way of escaping pressure. Not trying to be rude, but this thread is about mario's viability, and mario is clearly a viable character. So this addition is completely unwarranted imo.

I know I just love silly stupid things. Did you see Doc's cape hitbox? Lmfao

 

[Viceversa96]

Mario is good enough as it is. Too good actually. I would make no changes honestly.

He needs to have a cape shine that comes out in 1 frame and covers the entire screen then he'll be viable

 

[MrM]

He needs to have a cape shine that comes out in 1 frame and covers the entire screen then he'll be viable

uthrow >full screen cape shine spike > ggs

 

[MrM]

bthrow i meant

 

[Viceversa96]

bthrow i meant

Both work equally as good