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Mario's Up-B Walljump frame data?

Discussion in 'Mario' started by Pepper, Feb 3, 2015.

  1. Pepper

    Pepper
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    I've already watched the video on how to up-b wall jump, but I'm still having trouble doing it. Is there any frame video-thingy that shows when you can perform it?

    Thanks :)
     
  2. a rookie

    a rookie
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    To my knowledge, no. No one's put in the time I guess? Tbh, I'd do it, but I'm not a tech savvy guy and don't understand frame data that well, so that'd be a bust. Haha
     
  3. schmooblidon

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    i've been trying to figure it out. it's a little awkward. the following works:

    When against the wall on the frame before you up-b
    Straight up (No DI)
    Walljump occurs on frame 25 earliest (earlier timings will buffer this)
    Window frame 23-29

    Diagonal DI (inbetween straight up and straight horizontal)
    Walljump occurs on frame 24 earliest (earlier timings will buffer this)
    Window 22-29

    DI Full Horizontal
    Walljump occurs on frame 23 earliest (earlier timings will buffer this)
    Window 21-29

    Extended Upb
    Walljump occurs on frame 27 earliest (earlier timings will buffer this)
    Window 25-29


    When up-b is NOT started against the wall
    DI Full Horizontal
    ECB must begin touching wall on frame 23 (second to last hitbox frame)
    Can then walljump on frames 24-29

    I wonna say there are other setups, but I havent found them yet.
     
    #3 schmooblidon, Feb 8, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2015
  4. schmooblidon

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    Some new information has just come to light about this ***** tech.

    So I was watching this dudes tech skill vid https://youtu.be/01HhikFY0wE?t=34s

    As you can see this dude effortlessly does upb walljumps without hugging the wall. I thought this was too good to be true, so I tested it and the stage makes it ***** easy as ****.

    Normally the window for hugging against the wall, no DI, is frame 23-29. On that stage is 23-37. And with full horizontal DI, normally its 21-29, but on that stage it's 21-34. The strangest thing is that these windows don't change if you don't start the up-b against the wall.

    Normally up-bing without hugging the wall, is stupidly precise. From a **** tonne of labbing, I could only find one setup, and that is to up-b with full horizontal DI, begin touching the wall on precisely frame 23, then walljump on frames 24-29.

    This also works on the gamecube stage and various modded stages on 20XX v4.0. The thing that both of these stages have in common is that the entire wall is marked as part of the ledge.

    Red means ledge

    Here is how yoshi's ledge is marked

    [​IMG]

    and here is how the stage in the vid is marked

    [​IMG]

    I don't really know what to make of this right now tbh. I'm not sure if there are even any non modded stages will ledges like that. I have an idea of marios ledgesnapbox being within range of a ledge will increase his window (for whatever reason), and ill test out some ideas. It's pretty fun being able to walljump so easily, so you guys should try it out. If anyone has any ideas let me know, it might not even be the ledge idea and something completely different.
     
    #4 schmooblidon, Dec 3, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2015
    Christopher Rodriguez likes this.
  5. KoopaTroopa895

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    If any information can help, I usually practice up b wall jumping by upbing a little bit above the ledge and then walljumping. Which has granted me some success. I have a hard time doing it on battlefield. I dunno if that helps at all. FD stadium and dreamland are a bit easier going above the ledge. Yoshi's is kinda hard? Some of this might not have any evidence or anything to back it up.
     
  6. schmooblidon

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    are you saying that your up-b peaks above the ledge? I presume your collision box is just about still against the wall, and if you miss the walljump you just grab the ledge. are these upbs without hugging the wall when starting? and how consistent are you at getting it?
     
  7. KoopaTroopa895

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    I am not hugging the wall when I start. I try and peak like above the sweetspot. I don't know if above the ledge is the right way to put it. But I make sure the up b ends with me still hugging the wall but def above the sweet spot so I fall a little bit (this way I do the spin without snapping to the ledge). I dunno about consistency, I haven't practiced it a whole lot recently, but I can make a video example later tonight if you wanna see it. I get it more than trying it on the bottom of yoshis wall at least lmao.

    I don't really know the frame data behind it or anything but yeah your post describing it is correct (didn't read it clearly enough). I will do some best of 10 reps (ive been overdue for some anyways) and get back to you.
     
    #7 KoopaTroopa895, Dec 3, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2015
  8. schmooblidon

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    turns out that the window is increased on those stages because achilles was doing some funky walljump related hacks to make other tech easier.

    im still interested in cracking this tech tho, but like you would expect I dont think the ledge has anything to do with it. koopa do you always do a full horizontal angled upb when you do it?

    edit: also ive been labbing and figuring out the mechanics of upb cancel. i realised that the turning upbcancel were u end up facing the other way, causes a reverse extended upb in the air. it makes sense when you understand the mechanics. the inputs for this are:

    1 | Up+B
    2 or 3 | Forward
    4 | Back

    for mario it's

    1 | Up+B
    anytime between 2-6 | Forward
    7 | Back (can be holding back anytime after hitting forward, must keep holding till frame 7)

    So you angle forward in the angle deciding window, then you make it reverse on the reverse deciding frame. So it makes it a reverse backwards angled upb, an extended upb.

    Also judging from what I've found about upb cancel, it really doesnt seem like there is any way to do it with mario.
     
    #8 schmooblidon, Dec 5, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2015
    Axitonium likes this.
  9. KoopaTroopa895

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    I explained how I practice on your stream earlier but I figured I'd post it here as well for anybody else curious. Typically im on the FD ledge, I drop down, extended up B (typically im going for as much up as possible) and then walljump. I don't fade at all I just drop straight. According to frame counter im hitting the walljump input anywhere from frames 31-32 typically (two frame 33 wall jumps happened). This leads to some success. I don't practice full horizontal angled up b often enough to be honest, will probably put some work in that soon and let you know if I find anything.
     
    #9 KoopaTroopa895, Dec 5, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2015
  10. schmooblidon

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    K i think i figured this **** out

    So this new setup, happens when you start touching the wall on frame 31. Why 31? **** knows, but I have found both the extended upb setup Koopa has been talking about, and a regular no DI upb to walljump setup.

    This is actually super awkward because you move backwards a little bit near the end. What happens in this setup is you go just above the stage (the side points of the ECB are what matter, they need to touch the wall for you to walljump), but the bottom of your collision box is still being pushed by the wall, not letting you land onstage. So you fall back, and if the side points of your ECB start touching the wall again on frame 31, you get a walljump window. The walljump happens earliest on frame 32, and latest on frame 37 (might be able to later if someone was occupying the ledge), you can buffer one from frame 30.

    Here is the extended upb walljump with the latest possible walljump:


    and here is the regular upb walljump with the earliest possible walljump:


    Notice that in both of these examples the ECB's side points go above the stage at the peak, then on exactly frame 31 start touching the wall again. Look at the white outline ECB, this is the projected ECB so it tells us that there is a force pushing mario and thats where he should be, but the light orange ECB (the corrected ECB) is kissing the wall because it knows it can't get past.

    I should note that the regular upb walljump is a bit of a weird setup, you drop down no fastfall then drop a bit and fastfall for 2 frames before upbing. I did this so I could find a way to touch the wall on frame 31 like the extended setup, to see if that is what caused it.

    I have some pretty good ideas of how this **** all works, but the original full forward angled non-hugging setup is kinda baffling, and the way DI changes the window on hugging walljumps but not this new non-hugging one. I'll keep looking.

    Another interesting thing is that both of these new setups cause a doraki if you let yourself grab the ledge and then hit back to drop. Although that kinda makes sense
     
    #10 schmooblidon, Dec 5, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2015
    Axitonium, KoopaTroopa895 and V_D_X like this.
  11. schmooblidon

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    I'm beginning to truly understand this tech. I've been reading about the doraki walljump and reverse walljump to get a better idea of walljumping in general. Here is a really greatly documented thread about the reverse walljump by Evsen (he's the dude that just solved the frozen turnip), there is a really awesome comment by achilles on this thread that explains the code of this tech.

    So after reading that stuff, I had a good understanding of how the walljump flag+counter can be manipulated. Where Evsen explains you can avoid the walljump counter reset by performing aerials or specials without going into any neutral airborne states. But he says the only exception is marios upb, and that only near the end does it reset the counter. So then I did some labbing to find the exact frame that it resets the counter. I found that is the same frame that the earliest walljump is possible, which changes with DI, this makes a lot of sense and what I would of guessed but I had to be sure.

    I realised that the thing that separates different DI, is X and Y velocity. Then found that each hugging upb walljump window is precisely the frame that you start moving downward. This is why the window changes depending on DI, as they have different frames where you start falling. They all end on frame 30, this is because the ECB moves slightly inward on that frame, and thus stops touching the wall. On frame 31, it extends back out and touches the wall again, but walljumps won't work anymore because after leaving the wall, you need to move a certain amount away from the wall, before going back to it will re-enable walljumping. Achilles calls this the walljump x-coord frame delta.

    Hugging the wall allows you to walljump, then upbing pauses this and "stores the walljump". Then by the frame you start falling, you become elligible for a walljump again.

    This realisation, gave me a sweet idea.



    To do this, you need 2 walls close-ish together, fourside is perfect for this. Then hug a wall and reverse up-b, quickly let go of back once you start moving, then during the normal hugging window, walljump by pushing back again (at this point it will be toward the opposite wall) on the opposite wall. You will reverse walljump.

    This works because you store the walljump (with the direction) when you hug the wall. The walljump counter is paused as soon as you start the upb, then assuming you are hugging the new wall by the time the walljump window opens, you can walljump but the direction that was stored is the opposite.

    Evsen did mention you could reverse walljump with upb, and he may of found this setup already, but there was no documentation of it.

    I'm still a little confused as to why you can do non-hugging setups. But imma keep working on it.
     
    #11 schmooblidon, Dec 6, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2015
    Axitonium and Pauer like this.
  12. schmooblidon

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    I was always baffled by anyone doing non-hugging upbwjs, and wondered how on earth they were doing what I could only explain as a super precise spacial window. But after the setup that Koopa has found, I've looked at all the vids of people doing them again, and they all have 2 things in common. They are either A: going slightly above the ledge or B: going slightly over a bump, and they all walljump later than hugging ones (cos the window is +31, and hugging is <30 always).

    So I then went to yoshis and aimed my upb to peak at the bump on the wall, and I got it straight away. I did it like 4 times in a row! Funnily, it is a spacial window like the ultra stupid hard one, but instead of it being a horizontal window, it's a vertical window, which is much easier to calculate in your head mostly because of the camera.

    I'm keep labbing and try and get some concrete numbers for this type of setup. I dno what to call it tbh, non-hugging is pretty lame. Arookie called them fadeaways a lot, I kinda like that.
     
    KoopaTroopa895 likes this.
  13. KoopaTroopa895

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    actually that reminds me of a conversation I had with Kadano a while ago. I'll post it here, it may be a little outdated but anything helps i suppose.


    Koopa: Lastly is the Up B wall jump, simply put I have no idea how it works from a frame data perspective. Our best resource is the acryte tutorial from 2011 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtLC_cYFKTs and while it gives good pauses it doesn't give actual frame data. The next is the conditions to activate it. Me and JeezImSoBored went into dolphin for this one and it seems there is a bigger window to do the wall jump when hugging it then when you don't hug it(hugging is like 7 or something but not hugging is like 2 if memory serves correctly). Like I don't know exactly how collision works or anything like that, but I just can't figure up b wall jumps out. And I know so little about the game and was wondering if you could help. Me and A rookie(another socal mario main) used to do 99 stock matches to try and figure out the up b wall jump timing and we just can't do it(probably because our methods suck) XD So I was wondering if you can figure out or at least point me in the right direction if you don't feel like doing it on the frame data for so far hugging and non hugging the wall as well as the exact conditions to activate it. How much of a wall does it need to be? Why does the bottom of battlefield even work, or the mouth of slowpoke? What frames does it happen and are there any better indicators of when to do it?

    Kadano: Walljump inputs on frames 23-35 can cause a up-B walljump, but only if the walljump flag is active. I don’t know how it works exactly, but the condition for it to be active seems to be to collide with a wall. This can be either done at the beginning of the up-B or during the rising motion. If it’s the latter, you need to have a part of the wall push against you by sticking out more than the areas above and below it. In other words, non-wallhugging up-Bs on completely flat walls can never be walljumped out.

    Koopa: Do I have to wait for the wall jump flag to be active before I do the input? Or do I just do it between 23-35. Is the wall pushing against you easily seen? Yoshi's story has like a couple of different parts of the stage sticking out. So should I aim for those more than anything else?

    Kadano: You should aim for your up-B’s apex to be just above the parts that stick out and smash the control stick away as soon as you slide against that part.

    Some of this seems to coincide with what we currently know, although some might be a bit wrong as well (pretty sure you could get an earlier walljump than frame 23). Skimming through this some of this has probably already been said and some of it might be wrong. So take this with a grain of salt (would point out what's right or what's wrong but I'm in school).


    I can get behind any name that name unless there is a better name to describe what it is were doing XD If you find anymore concrete numbers please let me know. This is very exciting news.
     

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