Mario's tierlist position

[Dr_Strangelove]

I do not understand why he is only ranked 7 in the tierlist, can someone please explain this to me?
I think he is a very strong character.

He has a decent approach, his shorthop is like, the PERFECT height for his aerials, especially his down air.
He has an amazing projectile that has many uses.
One of the best edgeguarders, in my opinion.
His forward air, upsmash and downsmash are just so good that it's unfair.
One of the best recoveries, which can be quite tricky to edgeguard against when playing a canny opponent.
Has that shorthop -> d-air -> u-air -> z-cancel -> repeat combo.
Very good at tech chasing.
Can attack people who are camping in the rapetent.
Decent grab with ok throws.


Am I missing some huge flaw, or is he just seriously underrated?

Thanks for your help/knowledge/enlightenment/smackdowns guys.

 

[Skrlx]

It's just a tier list.
You can have the worst player use the top tier character (falcon) and have the best player use Samus(lowest char on the tier list) and the low tier character would win because the of the player.

Also WEEGEE FOR TOP TIER

EDIT: Note that there's already a mario tier discussion on the "mario>luigi" thread

 

[Dr_Strangelove]

It's just a tier list.
You can have the worst player use the top tier character (falcon) and have the best player use Samus(lowest char on the tier list) and the low tier character would win because the of the player.

Also WEEGEE FOR TOP TIER

EDIT: Note that there's already a mario tier discussion on the "mario>luigi" thread

I do realise that the tier list isn't the do all and end all of smash.
But still...
He should SO be higher. D:

Also, that thread is about a completely different topic, it is talking about the differences between luigi and mario as far as I can see.
I want to know why mario is so far down the tierlist, seeing as in my eyes, he is such a strong and well balanced character.

Also weegee should most certainly NOT be top tier. D:<

 

[NixxxoN]

It's just a tier list.
You can have the worst player use the top tier character (falcon) and have the best player use Samus(lowest char on the tier list) and the low tier character would win because the of the player.

Also WEEGEE FOR TOP TIER

EDIT: Note that there's already a mario tier discussion on the "mario>luigi" thread

Falcon top tier??

And Mario is up there with falcon, fox and ness in my opinion.

 

[Dr_Strangelove]

Falcon top tier??

And Mario is up there with falcon, fox and ness in my opinion.

Yeah, I thought that was a bit weird too.

I know that character's limits, he is not as good as kirby or pikachu, but I honestly think that he could be pushing for a position just below those two.

 

[Superstar]

One, that tier is ancient and bad. GameFAQs ring a bell?

Either way, you can't decide someone's tier position by strengths, you have to compare them with other characters.

Pikachu is better than Mario hands down. Better recovery, better edgeguarding, better combos, more combo freedom, have combos better than the one you listed, and has more range. Kirby has that insane range, better "lower combo" ability than Mario, and still edgeguards pretty well with dtilt, bair, and obviously dair.

Captain Falcon and Fox beat Mario as well. Though they are susceptible to combos and have a worse recovery, they still edgeguard quite well, and combo better than Mario does. They have the freedom to start combos at any percent, while Mario is limited in combo starters at lower percents. That, and their speed.

Best Mario can be is 5th place.

 

[T1g3rbombz]

i think mario is 5th...or at least hes my 5th CHAAH0OOO

 

[marthmaster04]

A good Mario is my most brutal enemy, they can completely control a stage if they're smart. Agree'd he is VERY under rated. From my experience he honestly has no TRULY bad matchups unless I'm missing something. Singular and certain moves and combos do not make a counterpick.

 

[Dr_Strangelove]

One, that tier is ancient and bad. GameFAQs ring a bell?

Either way, you can't decide someone's tier position by strengths, you have to compare them with other characters.

Pikachu is better than Mario hands down. Better recovery, better edgeguarding, better combos, more combo freedom, have combos better than the one you listed, and has more range. Kirby has that insane range, better "lower combo" ability than Mario, and still edgeguards pretty well with dtilt, bair, and obviously dair.

Captain Falcon and Fox beat Mario as well. Though they are susceptible to combos and have a worse recovery, they still edgeguard quite well, and combo better than Mario does. They have the freedom to start combos at any percent, while Mario is limited in combo starters at lower percents. That, and their speed.

Best Mario can be is 5th place.

Where would ness be on your tierlist then?

The real advantage of mario is edgeguarding and recoveries, you can use smaller combos and then try to mindgames a KO if necessary.
Or just knock them off the stage.

If a falcon or a fox gets hit off at 60ish percent against a mario, they aren't likely to come back.


Argh, these lists are so complicated, there are so many factors!

 

[Superstar]

There's more to a match than just edgeguarding. For example, if Fox or Falcon hit anyone, say Mario, they can either do a lot of damage and/or finish them off. They're also very good at edgeguarding themselves, though they can't go as far to do it, they have a lot of safe methods to edgeguard with.

Also, Mario's grab range is piss. His best shot is leading into a grab through fireballs, fair, dair, that stuff.

I'd put Ness somewhere below Mario, or above, but if that just by one spot. Everyone has a different opinion on this given the scene is so puny.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

From our 'rank the characters' attempt at a tier list, I think this was the average tier list:

Pikachu
Kirby*
Fox*
Falcon
Mario
Jigglypuff*
Ness*
Yoshi
DK
Link*
Luigi*
Samus

* means they may have been switched.

Don't quote me on this tier list, as it may be wrong, but other than the *'s, it seems to be pretty accurate (depending on who you talk to, they may say it's completely wrong. The joy of such a small community...)

 

[Daedatheus]

My only problem is this.

Link*
Luigi*

Simply because Luigi's recovery >>>>>>>>>> Link's recovery. lol

 

[Dr_Strangelove]

You can't even call link's up-B a recovery, it's THAT bad.
It's 5 seconds of spinny lag, all for like 1 vertical pixel gained.


You don't even turn around

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Luigi has the recovery. Link has the approach and projectiles. Take your pick

 

[Dr_Strangelove]

Let's fuse them into one godlike character, and call it superlinkgi.
No man can stop the power of superlinkgi!

(Except Pikachu)

 

[Blue Yoshi]

superlinkuigiamus:

recovery / weight / vertical speed of Link
approach / projectiles / horrizontal speed of Luigi
combos of samus.

God tier ftw?

 

[Dr_Strangelove]

That is the most depressing abomination ever conceived.
Shame on you, you cruel, sadistic man.

 

[Superstar]

Link has good vertical speed, it helps his combos.

It helps him get comboed too, though.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Link has good vertical speed, it helps his combos.

It helps him get comboed too, though.

With Samus's combos (i.e. none lol), it only helps him get comboed... and makes his recovery that much worse (with Luigi's non-existant horrizontal aerial speed)

 

[asianaussie]

Now that we're talking about tiers, where should Jiggs be? She has pretty poor priority, but if she can get started with a D-Air or U-Tilt, stuff happens. She can also edgeguard to an okay degree. However, some characters utterly dominate her, like Fox, and she can't really take much punishment before being susceptible to full-on KOs from most smashes. I always thought she was low mid-tier.

Also, I think Ness is below Fox and Falcon, but still better than the Mario Bros. Any comments?

 

[greenblob]

Mario has two things working against him, I think:
Dair isn't reliable for comboing
Mario has a hard time connecting his KO moves (which are really just limited to his smashes and backthrow) and most of his combos end with a fair.

I'd rank him below Pika, Kirby, Fox, and Falcon for sure, and maybe below Ness. He's definitely better than Jiggs though.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Puff would be middle.

Honestly, why worry about tiers? It just causes johns (i.e. tier *****, etc.). Just pick a character you like, and stick with it. Some pros even main Luigi, Samus and Link, and do very well.

 

[NixxxoN]

Mario has a hard time connecting his KO moves (which are really just limited to his smashes and backthrow) and most of his combos end with a fair.

In a lot of cases, this is not a problem as you just have to send the opponent off when having problems pulling KO moves... Then fireballs will help you edgeguard a lot.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Mario has an easy time edgeguarding basically everyone (except a good pika), so the lack of a KO move doesn't matter.

 

[Fireblaster]

Mario has an easy time edgeguarding basically everyone (except a good pika), so the lack of a KO move doesn't matter.

I'd actually say he's probably second best at edgeguarding pika, next to link (my opinion, I would like to discuss this).

Link has 2 different projectiles he can have out at once to help him control space along with ridiculously big and long lasting hitboxes like Dair that give him a huge advantage in edgeguarding pika over everyone else. Pika's recovery is different from everyone in that he doesn't have to get into the correct space to abuse the attack hitbox of his upB to make it safely back to the stage (like the exact distance it takes for mario's upB to sweetspot as soon as possible, link's upB being spaced correctly to outrange most ground attacks and make it safely, etc.). Pika's just different since he has no attack hitbox on his upB and instead he relies on the ridiculous range of options and distance he has on his upB. And the most obvious counter to this are not simply high priority attacks, but attacks that cover the most area. And link probably does this the best.

Mario's second in MY OPINION because well timed fireballs can allow mario to stand far from the edge while shooting the fireballs to stop pika from grabbing the edge, yet shortens the distance mario has to chase pika if pika decides to not go for the edge.

Discuss.

 

[Deleted member]

Mario has two things working against him, I think:
Dair isn't reliable for comboing
Mario has a hard time connecting his KO moves (which are really just limited to his smashes and backthrow) and most of his combos end with a fair.

I'd rank him below Pika, Kirby, Fox, and Falcon for sure, and maybe below Ness. He's definitely better than Jiggs though.

Dair is reliable for comboing since they do so much stun that even with DI mario can just turn around and grab. Dair to u-air is pretty good too.


His KO moves aren't hard to hit with if you know how to up-air properly, using the weak hitboxes to keep your opponent within reach of you. He also has pretty good gimping ability.

Now that we're talking about tiers, where should Jiggs be? She has pretty poor priority, but if she can get started with a D-Air or U-Tilt, stuff happens. She can also edgeguard to an okay degree. However, some characters utterly dominate her, like Fox, and she can't really take much punishment before being susceptible to full-on KOs from most smashes. I always thought she was low mid-tier.

Also, I think Ness is below Fox and Falcon, but still better than the Mario Bros. Any comments?

Jiggly's n-air is a pretty high priority move, Jiggly is great at 0 to deaths on most of the cast, has the best rolls in the game, decent gimp, etc. If Jigglypuff manages to live to around 120%, she can be tough to kill as a tap would send her flying but not to her death.

On the flipside, Jiggly, like you said is ko bait at lower percentages then most of the cast, is pretty well shut down by decent foxes

Her strengths though, to me, make up for her weaknesses pretty well.


My personal opinion on a tier list would be something like this:

Top:

Pika
Kirby / Fox

Great:
Falcon
Jiggly/Mario

Good:
Luigi/Yoshi
DK
Ness
Link

Ok:
Samus

 

[asianaussie]

Cool.

I care about tiers because it's nice to know. I also wrote a guide for newbies to online play, and a little tier bit is something I'd like to have.

Also, I main Link, secondaries everyone else. It doesn't really matter in SSB64.

 

[MarioReincarnate]

the thing i don't like about tier list discussions is that it ignores style.

the only "counterpicks" IMO aren't character based, they're style based. For example, picking DK to counter Fox on DL will turn into a gimp fest if the fox player plays against DK as if he/she is playing a Link. The reason great players own with any character vs any character is because they have mastered the many styles of each character. Any discussion of tiers IMO should be style tier lists, ranking the styles from top (hardest to master) to bottom (easiest to master). Otherwise the tier list is a steer clear list for me.

 

[greenblob]

If you really know how to DI drill kicks, you can get away far enough to avoid getting grabbed/usmashed. But Mario's dash is fast enough to maybe connect with another hit if it's DI'd. Jiggly on the other hand, has no real chance.
And I still say usmash is somewhat situational. The only real way of connecting it is after a dair->uair chain, which again, is possible to DI out of. You can connect it after a uair chain when there are platforms (such as the ones at the middle of Hyrule), but that's even more situational.
As far as an actual tier list goes, I would say
Top: Pikachu
High: Fox, Kirby, Falcon
Mid: Ness, Mario, Yoshi
Low: DK, Jigglypuff, Luigi, Link
Bottom: Samus

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Fox is one of the hardest to master and play at a very high competitive level imo. does that make him bottom tier?

I think you meant to say "easiest to win with" to "hardest to win with" at high level of play, as once fox gets to the high level of play, he does very well (and would therefore be high on the 'tier?' list).

edit: this was a response to mario's post.

 

[MarioReincarnate]

I think you meant to say "easiest to win with" to "hardest to win with" at high level of play

Yeah that makes more sense... the easier the style is to master the higher on the tier list... but when you think about it it's still pretty dumb... still a steer clear list to me

 

[Kefit]

Smoke's tier list looks pretty good. I'd probably drop Luigi a few ranks just because his approach is such garbage, and note that Jigglypuff is only that high if she is willing to dair camp for the entire match.

As for Mario, he's definitely good. His main drawback is his slow speed, but the fireball helps make up for this in terms of approach. I think that he would be much lower without that ****ed thing.

I'd actually say he's probably second best at edgeguarding pika, next to link (my opinion, I would like to discuss this).

...

Discuss.

Mario and Link are pretty bad at edge-guarding Pika. The best characters for this are, without a doubt, Fox, Falcon, and Pikachu. The key to edgeguarding Pika isn't trying to hit him out of the middle of one of his dashes or controlling the aerial space that Pika moves through. Remember, Pika doesn't mind being hit by a fireball during one of his dashes, as it just gives him another use of upB except now it's closer to the stage.

The real key to edge guarding Pika is being fast enough to beat Pika to whatever point on the stage he is going to land at. For example, let's take the left side of Hyrule. Pika can chose to sweet spot the ledge, land on the lower slanted platform, or land on the raised middle ground of the stage. Fox or Falcon stands on the lower slanted area. If Pika lands on this lower area then he will get attacked before recovering from the upB (probably with a throw). If he goes for the higher ground then Fox and Falcon are fast enough to chase him up there and possibly grab him anyway. And if Pika goes for the ledge the Fox or Falcon might have enough of an indication to counter that (sweet spotting the ledge with Pika's upB requires specific positioning, someone familiar with edge guarding him can see it coming).

Dreamland provides a more complex example, but the general idea is the same. Fox or Falcon stay on the main platform, neard the ledge, while Pika upBs. If he lands on the main platform then you get a free throw while he is recovering. Otherwise, read if he is going for one of the platforms or the ledge and simply get there before he does.

The main thing to learn from this is that predicting when and where Pikachu will LAND from the upB is usually MUCH easier than predicting when and where he will be at a specific point in the air during one of his dashes. There are of course exceptions (Pika is below the level of the ledge on Dreamland, you know he has to move up with at least one of his dashes which gives a very constrained air space he has to feasibly move through if he wants to survive), but it just so happens that Falcon's dair is probably the best move in the game for taking advantage of these situations thanks to its giant hitbox and fairly long duration. Fox's uair and Pika's dair aren't bad for this either.

 

[Dr_Strangelove]

Smoke's tier list looks pretty good. I'd probably drop Luigi a few ranks just because his approach is such garbage, and note that Jigglypuff is only that high if she is willing to dair camp for the entire match.

As for Mario, he's definitely good. His main drawback is his slow speed, but the fireball helps make up for this in terms of approach. I think that he would be much lower without that ****ed thing.



Mario and Link are pretty bad at edge-guarding Pika. The best characters for this are, without a doubt, Fox, Falcon, and Pikachu. The key to edgeguarding Pika isn't trying to hit him out of the middle of one of his dashes or controlling the aerial space that Pika moves through. Remember, Pika doesn't mind being hit by a fireball during one of his dashes, as it just gives him another use of upB except now it's closer to the stage.

The real key to edge guarding Pika is being fast enough to beat Pika to whatever point on the stage he is going to land at. For example, let's take the left side of Hyrule. Pika can chose to sweet spot the ledge, land on the lower slanted platform, or land on the raised middle ground of the stage. Fox or Falcon stands on the lower slanted area. If Pika lands on this lower area then he will get attacked before recovering from the upB (probably with a throw). If he goes for the higher ground then Fox and Falcon are fast enough to chase him up there and possibly grab him anyway. And if Pika goes for the ledge the Fox or Falcon might have enough of an indication to counter that (sweet spotting the ledge with Pika's upB requires specific positioning, someone familiar with edge guarding him can see it coming).

Dreamland provides a more complex example, but the general idea is the same. Fox or Falcon stay on the main platform, neard the ledge, while Pika upBs. If he lands on the main platform then you get a free throw while he is recovering. Otherwise, read if he is going for one of the platforms or the ledge and simply get there before he does.

The main thing to learn from this is that predicting when and where Pikachu will LAND from the upB is usually MUCH easier than predicting when and where he will be at a specific point in the air during one of his dashes. There are of course exceptions (Pika is below the level of the ledge on Dreamland, you know he has to move up with at least one of his dashes which gives a very constrained air space he has to feasibly move through if he wants to survive), but it just so happens that Falcon's dair is probably the best move in the game for taking advantage of these situations thanks to its giant hitbox and fairly long duration. Fox's uair and Pika's dair aren't bad for this either.

Also kirby's dair is unfairly good at doing this.

 

[Daedatheus]

Also kirby's dair is unfair

Fixed

Spoiler

10dairs

 

[Dr_Strangelove]

Fixed

Spoiler

10dairs

What is this 10*insertshortwordhere* thing?
Is it a private joke?
Might one let a lowly smash n00b in on this smashboards meme?

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Your messages must be 10 characters long.

"Fixed." is only 6 characters

Spoiler

10falcons

 

[asianaussie]

the thing i don't like about tier list discussions is that it ignores style.

the only "counterpicks" IMO aren't character based, they're style based. For example, picking DK to counter Fox on DL will turn into a gimp fest if the fox player plays against DK as if he/she is playing a Link. The reason great players own with any character vs any character is because they have mastered the many styles of each character. Any discussion of tiers IMO should be style tier lists, ranking the styles from top (hardest to master) to bottom (easiest to master). Otherwise the tier list is a steer clear list for me.

I'm pretty sure tier lists should never focus on the words 'hardest to master' or 'easiest to master'. Mastering the various styles of a character = mastering a character, and tier lists are never based on how hard a character is to master. They're a measure of potential, which is why, despite the fact that DJCing is exceptionally hard to MASTER (not do) in comparison to, say, Kirby's easy chase/gimp game, both Ness and Kirby are fairly high in any objective tier list.

As for the current discussion...Kefit is right on the points that matter. Edgeguarding Pika is all about prediction.

Also...as if Link is bad at edgeguarding Pika. Just stand near the edge so the threat of F-Smash is there as a warning not to sweetspot, then predict and D-Air to win. Kirby's probably the best edgeguarder vs Pika. He can jump out just past the ledge, then D-Air for a big, hard-to-avoid obstacle. Falcon can do this too with D-Air, but he has to take extra caution. Nobody has a truly guaranteed edgeguard against Pika, so I think the best way is to predict where he'll go and smack him back off.

 

[Daedatheus]

What is this 10*insertshortwordhere* thing?

What Dylan said.

And the reason it's 10 "something" is because it was initially "10char" signifying it was only there because that was how many characters you needed. Then people started making it "10yourmothers" etc.

 

[greenblob]

Jiggly fails even when dair camping. She can't approach AND she fails at stopping approaches. Also, her dair combos are easy to escape.

 

[Daedatheus]

she fails at stopping approaches.

Nair & utilt?