Mario's tierlist position

[asianaussie]

Jiggly fails even when dair camping. She can't approach AND she fails at stopping approaches. Also, her dair combos are easy to escape.

Well, if she goes at an enemy from the air, they attack, she jumps, dodging said attack, then proceeds to D-Air. Prediction works well with Jiggs.

Also, her moves aren't all bad. F-Smash can stop a fair few approaches (though in many cases she takes recoil). N-Air has a big hitbox. D-Air itself has alright range, though you have to get in there first.

 

[Deleted member]

If you really know how to DI drill kicks, you can get away far enough to avoid getting grabbed/usmashed. But Mario's dash is fast enough to maybe connect with another hit if it's DI'd. Jiggly on the other hand, has no real chance.
And I still say usmash is somewhat situational. The only real way of connecting it is after a dair->uair chain, which again, is possible to DI out of. You can connect it after a uair chain when there are platforms (such as the ones at the middle of Hyrule), but that's even more situational.
As far as an actual tier list goes, I would say
Top: Pikachu
High: Fox, Kirby, Falcon
Mid: Ness, Mario, Yoshi
Low: DK, Jigglypuff, Luigi, Link
Bottom: Samus

You are right if the jiggly player has no brain and drills in place, but smart Jigglys use Jiggly's decent aerial manuerability to follow people when they DI. This isn't absolute (although most people suck at DI-ing left) but to assume that drill combos are completely avoidable isn't true unless you face bad jiggly players.

Mario's down-air simply stuns longer and often gives him the ability to follow up. Even if Mario misses the up-air from down-air to up-air, the 0 lag granted by ssb 64 doesn't punish him for missing as he can just turn around, jab quick grab, or redrill. If the opponent puts up a shield he is screwed as down-air to up-air simply won't let them get out.

For Jiggly,
All it takes is to slightly follow after a drill, if they are behind you, up-tilt or if they are in front of you you can do a jab then grab.

I really don't know why you think Up smash is that situational since every stage except Sector Z, in one way or another has "platforms." Hyrule has the platforms in the middle, the area to the left of the **** tent counts as a "platform" since most people bounce people off of the house into an up-smash. Peaches Castle, Dreamland, Saffron City (sort of) has platforms as well. Smash 64 is a very platformy game.

Mario is versatile enough that he doesn't really need up smash as a finisher because he is great at gimping and up-air string into f-air or whatever off the stage is good also.

With that being said, it isn't hard to bounce people off of the **** house in Hyrule into an up-smash either. No down-air to up-air needed

 

[greenblob]

Nair & utilt?

Kirby, Pika, Fox, Ness, Mario, Yoshi, DK, Luigi, Link, and Samus have aerials that have better priority than Jiggly's nair. And her utilt has crap priority. It's nothing like Kirby's utilt.

Well, if she goes at an enemy from the air, they attack, she jumps, dodging said attack, then proceeds to D-Air. Prediction works well with Jiggs.

Also, her moves aren't all bad. F-Smash can stop a fair few approaches (though in many cases she takes recoil). N-Air has a big hitbox. D-Air itself has alright range, though you have to get in there first.

Most people don't usmash. They're either wait for the drill, dodge, and punish, or they'll jump and uair, and most uairs go through Jiggly's drill.

You are right if the jiggly player has no brain and drills in place, but smart Jigglys use Jiggly's decent aerial manuerability to follow people when they DI. This isn't absolute (although most people suck at DI-ing left) but to assume that drill combos are completely avoidable isn't true unless you face bad jiggly players.

Mario's down-air simply stuns longer and often gives him the ability to follow up. Even if Mario misses the up-air from down-air to up-air, the 0 lag granted by ssb 64 doesn't punish him for missing as he can just turn around, jab quick grab, or redrill. If the opponent puts up a shield he is screwed as down-air to up-air simply won't let them get out.

For Jiggly,
All it takes is to slightly follow after a drill, if they are behind you, up-tilt or if they are in front of you you can do a jab then grab.

I really don't know why you think Up smash is that situational since every stage except Sector Z, in one way or another has "platforms." Hyrule has the platforms in the middle, the area to the left of the **** tent counts as a "platform" since most people bounce people off of the house into an up-smash. Peaches Castle, Dreamland, Saffron City (sort of) has platforms as well. Smash 64 is a very platformy game.

Mario is versatile enough that he doesn't really need up smash as a finisher because he is great at gimping and up-air string into f-air or whatever off the stage is good also.

With that being said, it isn't hard to bounce people off of the **** house in Hyrule into an up-smash either. No down-air to up-air needed

Jiggly doesn't have good aerial maneuverability. I main Jiggs, and Falcon, Pika, Kirby, Fox, and Ness all feel more natural in the air than she does. Also, DI lets you escape outside the range of her utilt and grab. With most characters, you can drill and then dash into a grab since they're fast enough, but Jiggly takes forever to start the dash. Or you can play Pika, Fox, or Kirby and abuse their broken tilts. But yeah, I guess I'd have to agree that Mario can still kill even without a terribly reliable finisher. I guess he's on the same boat as Kirby--good combos, somewhat situational finishers, but the ability to edgeguard and kill even without KOing off the sides or over the top. Also, I guess I'm more used to facing people at the left end of Hyrule, since I usually end up camping either there or at the platforms in the middle.

 

[Deleted member]

Kirby, Pika, Fox, Ness, Mario, Yoshi, DK, Luigi, Link, and Samus have aerials that have better priority than Jiggly's nair. And her utilt has crap priority. It's nothing like Kirby's utilt.

Most people don't usmash. They're either wait for the drill, dodge, and punish, or they'll jump and uair, and most uairs go through Jiggly's drill.

Jiggly doesn't have good aerial maneuverability. I main Jiggs, and Falcon, Pika, Kirby, Fox, and Ness all feel more natural in the air than she does. Also, DI lets you escape outside the range of her utilt and grab. With most characters, you can drill and then dash into a grab since they're fast enough, but Jiggly takes forever to start the dash. Or you can play Pika, Fox, or Kirby and abuse their broken tilts. But yeah, I guess I'd have to agree that Mario can still kill even without a terribly reliable finisher. I guess he's on the same boat as Kirby--good combos, somewhat situational finishers, but the ability to edgeguard and kill even without KOing off the sides or over the top.

sorry but good players can walk a little in between up-tilts to account for DI, scrub level play has people simply stand still while up-tilting

Fox's tilts aren't broken, each of them have a lot of utility, Pika's up-tilt is instrumental to his game play but it can be jabbed and instantly counterattacked by for example, Fox since tilts have more lag then jabs then they clank. Forward-tilt/downtilt for Pika is situational but has its uses, Kirby's up-tilt is broken and probably the best move in the game, forward-tilt is ok but not recommended when you have a lot of better options, down-tilt is good at shield stabbing and sends him completely horizontal


Mario isn't in the same boat as Kirby at all

When I talk about matchups I assume that the people playing know what they are doing, not what low/mid level players play

What i mean by aerial manuerability is that Jiggly has good enough hang time during the drill to follow them once people DI. It seems like you completely missed my point when I said people can follow them while they are DI-ing, it's a common trait of decent players. Unlike lower level players of smash, who simply do their twirly drill in the same exact place in the air. Characters like Fox fall too quickly when they drill to follow their opponents as effectively.

 

[greenblob]

I was talking about the priority of Jiggly's utilt, not the DI. There are a bunch of attacks that can go through it. As far as utilt juggling goes, I definitely know how to do that.

Fox's dtilt has broken hitboxes in this context--you can't really DI out of the drill to avoid it.

I was comparing Mario and Kirby's overall strategies in that they rarely get instant KOs, but they still can combo and edgeguard well enough.

More hang time = more opportunities to follow the DI, but also more opportunities to DI away. If you DI correctly, you can move a farther distance than your opponent can chase you.

 

[T1g3rbombz]

im l33t with everyone...l33t

 

[Deleted member]

I was talking about the priority of Jiggly's utilt, not the DI. There are a bunch of attacks that can go through it. As far as utilt juggling goes, I definitely know how to do that.

Fox's dtilt has broken hitboxes in this context--you can't really DI out of the drill to avoid it.

I was comparing Mario and Kirby's overall strategies in that they rarely get instant KOs, but they still can combo and edgeguard well enough.

More hang time = more opportunities to follow the DI, but also more opportunities to DI away. If you DI correctly, you can move a farther distance than your opponent can chase you.

You are arguing you can get out of up-tilt by DI-ing but now you are talking about priority


Yes you can, Fox's down-air doesn't stun that much and if you DI behind Fox, you are making him turn around and down-tilt which takes too much time as your opponent can get away from that easily. I really think Foxes down-air is overrated and not needed too much in Fox's game play. Seeing noobs spam down-air to up-tilt is quite ******** as well since it is so easy to di out of it as well.


For Jiggly's drill you can simply follow their DI halfway into the move so that as you are landing you can follow their movements and go on from there. The only way I can see people getting out of this is if they DI one direction and quickly DI the other way, which is difficult and still not a guaranteed escape.

 

[greenblob]

She can't approach AND she fails at stopping approaches.

Nair & utilt?

her utilt has crap priority. It's nothing like Kirby's utilt.

I think I was arguing that her utilt has crappy priority. I was talking about how you can get out of her dair with DI.

And in my experience with Jiggs, I've had people consistently DI out of her drill in the same direction I was holding my control stick. So unless they were using rapidfire or something, it should be pretty easy to DI out of.

 

[Deleted member]

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