Mario's Bair vs Doc's Bair - why the bias?

[kingPiano]

I know this might have been beaten to death, but on the 1st two pages I can find no similar actual conversations giving reasons as to why everyone seems brainwashed into thinking Doc's Bair is so superior to Mario's...

Doc's has less knock-back (means less hitstun), 2 more frames of land lag L cancelled, it's weaker (Mario's does 3% more damage) and it doesn't last as long. The only plus is that it knocks downward a bit like Sheik's fair does...but this can actually be a minus since it can be teched on platforms and ground on account of the lessened hitstun. It does have a bit more horizontal range initially for like 1-2 frames, but I've never really noticed a significant difference in actual use (Mario's actually has larger hitboxes the longer it's out, they extend upwards)

Objectively - Mario's Bair has more knock back and does more damage (Doc - 8%, Mario - 11%) so it can be used earlier to edge-guard, set up edge guards, and gimp. It can be used earlier as a KO move, last longer and sends them in a traditional trajectory that can almost never be teched.

Overall to me Mario's Bair seems better, but even from a Doc biased point of view it would only makes sense to have to consider them equal since just at a glance Mario's Bair is stronger in damage/knockback, last longer, and is faster to cancel.

Yet time and time again I hear commentators and board post talking about how great Doc's Bair is and how it's better than Mario's...still though at least like 90% of the top players who put time in with Mario consider him better than Doc (most of the Gods as well, except M2K).

 

[schmooblidon]

Percent before hit | Hitstun frames | Knockback
doc 0% | 23 | 1.54533 x, 0.82167 y
mario 0% | 15 | 0.82026 x, 0.79212 y
doc 10% | 25 | 1.66586 x, 0.88575 y
mario 10% | 18 | 1.01664 x, 0.98176 y
doc 20% | 26 | 1.78638 x, 0.94983 y
mario 20% | 22 | 1.21302 x, 1.17140 y
doc 30% | 28 | 1.90690 x, 1.01392 y
mario 30% | 26 | 1.40940 x, 1.36104 y
doc 40% | 30 | 2.02742 x, 1.07800 y
mario 40% | 29 | 1.60578 x, 1.55069 y
doc 50% | 32 | 2.14795 x, 1.14208 y
mario 50% | 33 | 1.80216 x, 1.74033 y
doc 60% | 34 | 2.26847 x, 1.20617 y
mario 60% | 37 | 1.99854 x, 1.92997 y
doc 70% | 36 | 2.38899 x, 1.27025 y
mario 70% | 40 | 2.19492 x, 2.11961 y
doc 80% | 37 | 2.50951 x, 1.33433 y
mario 80% | 44 | 2.39130 x, 2.30925 y
doc 90% | 39 | 2.63004 x, 1.39841 y
mario 90% | 47 | 2.58768 x, 2.49889 y
doc 100% | 41 | 2.75056 x, 1.46250 y
mario 100% | 51 | 2.78406 x, 2.68854 y

Doc has a higher knockback value until 50%, but even though mario has more knockback from then, his divides across x and y way more. So doc's has a higher knockback x-value until 100%, at which point it doesn't matter as mario's knockback y-value has grown so much, it is still much easier to recovery from then from doc's.

Doc's is way better at gimping and at edgeguarding, for the reasons above and the increased range. The hitboxes are the same size, and marios only lasts 1 extra frame, but it's weak anyway.

[collapse=Stats]

Weak/Strong | Angle | BaseKnockback | Damage | KnockbackGrowth
doc strong | 28 | 43 | 8 | 65
mario strong | 361 | 10 | 11 | 100
doc weak | 361 | 20 | 7 | 100
mario weak | 361 | 7 | 9 | 100

[/collapse]

 

[kingPiano]

Percent before hit | Hitstun frames | Knockback
doc 0% | 23 | 1.54533 x, 0.82167 y
mario 0% | 15 | 0.82026 x, 0.79212 y
doc 10% | 25 | 1.66586 x, 0.88575 y
mario 10% | 18 | 1.01664 x, 0.98176 y
doc 20% | 26 | 1.78638 x, 0.94983 y
mario 20% | 22 | 1.21302 x, 1.17140 y
doc 30% | 28 | 1.90690 x, 1.01392 y
mario 30% | 26 | 1.40940 x, 1.36104 y
doc 40% | 30 | 2.02742 x, 1.07800 y
mario 40% | 29 | 1.60578 x, 1.55069 y
doc 50% | 32 | 2.14795 x, 1.14208 y
mario 50% | 33 | 1.80216 x, 1.74033 y
doc 60% | 34 | 2.26847 x, 1.20617 y
mario 60% | 37 | 1.99854 x, 1.92997 y
doc 70% | 36 | 2.38899 x, 1.27025 y
mario 70% | 40 | 2.19492 x, 2.11961 y
doc 80% | 37 | 2.50951 x, 1.33433 y
mario 80% | 44 | 2.39130 x, 2.30925 y
doc 90% | 39 | 2.63004 x, 1.39841 y
mario 90% | 47 | 2.58768 x, 2.49889 y
doc 100% | 41 | 2.75056 x, 1.46250 y
mario 100% | 51 | 2.78406 x, 2.68854 y

Doc has a higher knockback value until 50%, but even though mario has more knockback from then, his divides across x and y way more. So doc's has a higher knockback x-value until 100%, at which point it doesn't matter as mario's knockback y-value has grown so much, it is still much easier to recovery from then from doc's.

Doc's is way better at gimping and at edgeguarding, for the reasons above and the increased range. The hitboxes are the same size, and marios only lasts 1 extra frame, but it's weak anyway.

[collapse=Stats]

Weak/Strong | Angle | BaseKnockback | Damage | KnockbackGrowth
doc strong | 28 | 43 | 8 | 65
mario strong | 361 | 10 | 11 | 100
doc weak | 361 | 20 | 7 | 100
mario weak | 361 | 7 | 9 | 100

[/collapse]

Amazing data as always, but the hitboxes are actually a bit different in shape and size (in frames 6-9 and nearing the end). I did not know that Doc's had more intial knockback, however I think the 1 extra frame I feel is still worth noting since it equates to 6.25% longer.. I haven't extensively tested this, but because Mario's has less initial knock-back and a flat angle it seems to be MUCH easier to get the Full Hop Bair > Bair combo (and even if Doc's both hit it does 6% less damage).

In actual practice I guess I've just had much different experiences. This might be because I use Mario's Bair at higher percents where it's better (since Fair doesn't kill like Doc's). Doc's Bairs above 100% seems to have the wet noodle effect and can't kill until extremely high percentage, though I guess from the trajectory they ultimately gimp anyways at relative percents to Mario. If I want to knock them off from center or more than center than they won't make it to the edge because of the lack of power and hitstun growth over 50% or they might be able to tech on the ground with Doc's bair.


Perhaps Mario's Bair is more to my taste since it's easy to see that it's hitstun/knockback scales faster and seems to kill and set up edge-guards sooner for me. The increased length and damage definitely feels better in practical usage as well.

 

[schmooblidon]

Amazing data as always, but the hitboxes are actually a bit different in shape and size (in frames 6-9 and nearing the end). I did not know that Doc's had more intial knockback, however I think the 1 extra frame I feel is still worth noting since it equates to 6.25% longer.. I haven't extensively tested this, but because Mario's has less initial knock-back and a flat angle it seems to be MUCH easier to get the Full Hop Bair > Bair combo (and even if Doc's both hit it does 6% less damage).

In actual practice I guess I've just had much different experiences. This might be because I use Mario's Bair at higher percents where it's better (since Fair doesn't kill like Doc's). Doc's Bairs above 100% seems to have the wet noodle effect and can't kill until extremely high percentage, though I guess from the trajectory they ultimately gimp anyways at relative percents to Mario. If I want to knock them off from center or more than center than they won't make it to the edge because of the lack of power and hitstun growth over 50% or they might be able to tech on the ground with Doc's bair.


Perhaps Mario's Bair is more to my taste since it's easy to see that it's hitstun/knockback scales faster and seems to kill and set up edge-guards sooner for me. The increased length and damage are definitely feels better in practical usage.

The shape and size is identical. The only difference is Doc's second smaller hitbox is more extended on frames 6-9, which are the strong hit frames.

Docs bair doesn't suddenly become crap after 100% it is still the better kill move then marios. It still scales upward, and has a low trajectory. The more you hit them upward, the easier it is for them to recovery. All percents below 100, docs will hit the opponent further horizontally.

Bair is best when used for edgeguarding and gimping, so that's why people consider docs as the better option. You could maybe argue that marios is better for comboing, but honestly strong bair doesn't give followups for long, and they have very similar weak bairs. Both bairs have good neutral traits, marios has less landing lag, more damage and an extra weak frame, docs has more range and more knockback.

Mario's bair isn't bad by any means, but docs does what you want bair to do better.

 

[kingPiano]

The shape and size is identical. The only difference is Doc's second smaller hitbox is more extended on frames 6-9, which are the strong hit frames.

Docs bair doesn't suddenly become crap after 100% it is still the better kill move then marios. It still scales upward, and has a low trajectory. The more you hit them upward, the easier it is for them to recovery. All percents below 100, docs will hit the opponent further horizontally.

Bair is best when used for edgeguarding and gimping, so that's why people consider docs as the better option. You could maybe argue that marios is better for comboing, but honestly strong bair doesn't give followups for long, and they have very similar weak bairs. Both bairs have good neutral traits, marios has less landing lag, more damage and an extra weak frame, docs has more range and more knockback.

Mario's bair isn't bad by any means, but docs does what you want bair to do better.

Well I guess I'll just leave this here then, taken from the last frames of each Bair (each were roughly this same size and shape in preceding frames as well). Doc's actually is smaller throughout after the initial surge in size, Mario's is bigger to begin with and elongates vertically bit by bit over the active frames.

Also all percent up to 100% doc's only hits more horizontally if the opponent is in a favorable position in the air. It's actually more likely Mario's will hit further above 20% since it won't send them into a collision with the ground or platforms. Off the edge yes Doc's has more x distance initially, but in neutral trying to get them off stage I'd disagree (Doc's has less hitstun starting at 50% as well, this is pretty important)

And what you would want a bair to do is subjective, not objective. I want a bair that can knock an opponent off center stage at mid to high percents, combo at low percents, KO at high percents, and also be able to edge guard. As I said Doc's can fail to knock opponents off stage since it will send them into the ground or platforms for possible tech and has less hitstun at higher percents than Mario's. I also favor getting easy double bair combos up to 40-50% (21% with both hits and can end into grabs or UpTilts > Uair strings), something that Doc can't do as well as Mario (if at all). Doc overall is better because of his Pills and Fair, but their Bairs each have pros and cons that make them pretty much dead equal as moves IMO.

 

[schmooblidon]

What you are seeing is hitbox drag, it is only stretched because of the downward velocity he is experiencing. If you start boths bairs from the same points in a jump and compare, you will see they are identical.

I dunno man, your thinking is narrow minded and it just seems like you have a mario bias. I really don't care enough to continue arguing.

 

[kingPiano]

What you are seeing is hitbox drag, it is only stretched because of the downward velocity he is experiencing. If you start boths bairs from the same points in a jump and compare, you will see they are identical.

I dunno man, your thinking is narrow minded and it just seems like you have a mario bias. I really don't care enough to continue arguing.

Okay well I literally just said that Doc is better in my last paragraph, but hey if you want to shut down more power to you.

And apologies if I'm mistaken about the hitboxes, don't know why SuperDoodleMan would not be uniform in how he captures hitbox data for each character (especially similar ones).

However even if it's drag on the last part they are not identical since mario's stays out longer and has a different 6-9 hitbox animation.