Mario Impressions: Japanese E-Shop Demo

[DtJ XeroXen]

Hi guys, I'm XeroXen! I mained Mario in Brawl since the launch of the game and played him competitively for many years, despite how bad he was. Of course I'm pretty sure we're all aware that the Japanese 3DS Demo has launched and Mario, of course, is one of the playable characters. However, there seems to be a lot of misinformation spreading around about different things that have "changed" from Brawl, and I also thought it would be cool if a top Mario player from Brawl did a write up on the things I've observed about Mario in Smash for 3DS.

General Things

• For starters. His ground speed actually does seem faster, if only by a little bit.
• The knockback on his moves seems relatively unchanged. I've heard that Up-B and Dair are potential kill moves now, though.

His Moves

• Jab
  • Seems relatively unchanged. But it looks like characters receive a bunch of landing lag upon landing after jabs in this game. So maybe he could do a jab -> utilt/upsmash. (Link can do this pretty much guaranteed in this build)
• Ftilt
  • This was his best tilt in Brawl for spacing and quick ground strings and it seems unchanged in this game as far as knockback, speed, and range go. Of course the ability to pivot cancel is really good for this move, and linking it after back air looks just as viable as it was in Brawl. The hitstun looks pretty unchanged on this unfortunately.
• Dtilt
  • Still looks pretty bad. People are posting videos about how it "combos" into Fsmash, but that existed in Brawl too. The problem with the move is that it takes pretty much forever to come out and doesn't guarantee a hit into anything. Unless the hitstun has been substantially increased then this move is awful.
• Utilt
  • This was a staple of early Brawl combos which eventually got fizzled out due to its lack of range and how easily it was punished on shield. It was still useful for juggles on occasion and actually could kill unstaled around 150 damage. The move itself looks unchanged, but Mario's new Dthrow clearly sets it up to be a great move.
• FSmash
  • I haven't gotten to see a whole bunch of this move but it looks about the same. HOWEVER -- since the 3DS lacks a C-stick, I'm unable to tell if his stutter-step Fsmash still exists. This was a big part of his punish game in Brawl, and was one of his big saving graces in that game. If the stutter step still exists, then this move will still be amazing. If not, I'm not sure how viable it will be as a kill move unless we can find ways to combo into it.
• Dsmash
  • I never really saw this move on any videos/streams. Looks about the same speed and looks like it has the same amount of recovery, so it's just as punishable as it's always been. Hopefully the kill power has been amped up.
• Usmash
  • Also haven't seen much of this. But it looks like it might be a big part of his combos again. Unfortunately, the kill power looks relatively unchanged.
• Nair
  • Looks exactly the same. Same range, same knockback, same everything. Light nair will probably still combo into things at mid percents like it did in Brawl. Otherwise it's got alright kill power, same as Brawl.
• Fair
  
  • This move was relatively underused by Mario players in Brawl. There's been a lot of misinformation spreading that it's "faster", but it looks the exact same speed to me. The spike may be a bit stronger, which would be great for the move.
• Bair
  • Also the same as before! It's quick and great for spacing and approaching, same as always. However, it now has an autocancel. It didn't have awful landing lag before but now the landing lag is entirely negligible, so things like Bair -> Ftilt are going to be even better and faster spacing tools/combos.
• Uair
  • Also looks the same as before. Literally the same. Still quick and good for juggles/combos. Probably still has relatively quick landing lag too.
• Dair
  • Looks the damn same, Sky's video is wrong. You could do two Dairs in Brawl. It's the same. Hopefully you can still Dair -> Footstooled Nair for shield pressure.
• Dthrow
  • This is the biggest buff Mario has received. Dthrow is now amazing and appears to allow for true combos as low percents, and could even set up for kills at high percents. Like, this throw is so much better than it was before (and it was already his best throw), it's actually incredible that they gave Mario something so crazy good. If this move allows Mario to combo into a kill, then Mario's an easy high tier.
• Other throws
  • They're all the same. Doesn't even look like you can combo out of them. Let's hope Bthrow has kill potential though, Mario really needs that.
• Neutral B
  • For some reason or another, nobody who has been playing Smash 4 3DS has used much in regards to specials. I've heard whispers of fireball being "bad", but it's probably the same much like most of Mario's moveset.
• Side-B
  • Once again, nobody was using this move. However, cape was a staple of Mario's game in Brawl, entirely turning some matchups in his favor. With the nerf to auto ledge snap we could see the cape become even more important, and more consistent when it comes to low percent gimps. (Or maybe we'll see more of the cape teleport glitch...)
    
    Also, since nobody is using this move I'm still not sure if cape gliding is a thing, somebody should figure that out.
• Down-B
  • I saw a video and people were calling it "stronger". Based on the video, it's not. At most it's a little stronger. It'll still be useful for all the same things it was before, but I don't see it doing much else than being strong vs. certain characters' recoveries (Ike, Ness, Spacies, Pikachu)
• Up-B
  • If anybody remembers me from Brawl, this was a move I advocated that Mario use and abuse. It looks relatively unchanged, but I've heard that it may be a kill move now, which would be fantastic considering what a good out of shield option it is at higher percents. Hopefully the move still retains its ability to be angled and still has its invincibility frames and high priority.

Overall Impressions
My overview of Mario's moves might have sounded a bit disheartening to anybody familiar with his tier placement in Brawl (I.E. Low). And, to be honest, it's a bit disheartening for me too.

However, Mario's dthrow alone probably secures him a solid spot in mid tier unless other characters are on average way better. If Mario has kill potential and easy ways to kill, I can easily see Mario as being a high tier character. In Brawl, he was held back by his lack of ability to be able to finish off stocks easily.

Also, these "combos" that are circulating around about Mario vs. computers are absolutely silly. They're versus COMPUTERS. You could do that in Brawl, too. Whether or not the game has more hitstun can't be proved based on Mario's moveset vs. computers. I'm almost tempted to upload Mario "combos" from Brawl onto social media in the same circumstances. It's laughable, really. For reference, I'm talking about combos like the upair strings, which could easily be air dodged out of in Brawl. His Downthrow combos are legitimate at low percents, which is really exciting.

tl;dr: Mario looks pretty much the same other than his broken Dthrow. If hitstun is more prevalent in this game and his upair strings among other things turn out to be true combos, then Mario will probably be a great character. But we'll find out once we can all get our hands on it ourselves.

 

[Ya Dad]

Can't recover with cape anymore. when in the air, it just sends you down. I saw it on Zero's stream and he confirmed it.

 

[Mighty_Guy100]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XQhV05JQt-Y

Can't wait to main mario again.

 

[StarLight42]

That's really disheartening if it's true. Even Zero claimed that the Mario combos used on the Lv 9 computers could be done with real players, what's your deal?

 

[Aninymouse]

I'm just gonna drop this here... And say, wow, I am impressed. Mario just seems so much faster now.

http://youtu.be/ksMduEXItBU

 

[TTTTTsd]

Mario looks to be fantastic, but I mainly attribute it to his D-Throw buff but also the prevalence of hitstun. Mario in Brawl would've had a lot more options if acting out of hitstun wasn't the way it was, so I look forward to opening people up with the plumber here. Of course, Doc comes first in priority but Mario is looking REALLY good, Mid for sure.

I'm also keeping in mind that even if it's against LEvel 9 CPUs, in Brawl they acted out of hitstun at that level. They haven't' done that yet here, and combos(beyond true combos) are always based off of reads. This game has a lot more low % options for Mario to raise percent damage and take easier stocks on that principle alone.

I think I'd rather not get disheartened. Combos and longer more prevalent hitstun have been confirmed, the latter we don't know how much, but it is definitely more. To me, this extends Mario's options greatly.

 

[Fire!]

So we're basically banking on the fact that the game's engine is going to compliment Mario's playstyle. I was kind of expecting that, but at least it's something.

 

[A2ZOMG]

So we're basically banking on the fact that the game's engine is going to compliment Mario's playstyle. I was kind of expecting that, but at least it's something.

They also nerfed Mario's recovery. Cape stalling is a lot weaker.

However he also got better grab range reportedly and a F-air that actually hurts, 14-15 damage iirc, and way superior knockback + general ground bounce mechanics making it now actually worthwhile as a raw punish or edgeguard.

 

[T25XL]

mario seems like he'll be a good character, but I honestly think he'll probably be mid tier, the low end. I'm saying this, because I can already see villager having awesome off-stage game, rosalina may have some sort of ice climbers-like potential, and the swordsman in this game, have a really good range. Mario still doesn't seem to have much range, nor does he seem to have any sort of different combo ability than brawl, he's just overall faster. His Dthrow is really the only thing I see different that impacts his competitive gameplay, and his fireballs as well (they fall faster).

 

[A2ZOMG]

mario seems like he'll be a good character, but I honestly think he'll probably be mid tier, the low end. I'm saying this, because I can already see villager having awesome off-stage game, rosalina may have some sort of ice climbers-like potential, and the swordsman in this game, have a really good range. Mario still doesn't seem to have much range, nor does he seem to have any sort of different combo ability than brawl, he's just overall faster. His Dthrow is really the only thing I see different that impacts his competitive gameplay, and his fireballs as well (they fall faster).

We haven't checked what percents his Back-throw KOs at. We also haven't confirmed the frame data on Mario's Jab cancels (extra important given Mario has consistently had a 2 frame Jab in Smash) as well as how legitimate his D-tilt setups are in this game (which seems to have a lot of potential, given hitstun changes). Depending on how good those are, Mario could be more impressive than he looks right at this instant. Having a 2 frame Jab that sets up into other moves including Mario's strong grab is something you can't just simply laugh at.

Though Rosalina is probably broken as ****, because screw unbalanceable puppeteers. Shulk's mode switching also looks ********. But Marth in this game is probably much more fair to play against given you can now actually try to fight him in the air and not feel entirely stupid.

 

[NotLiquid]

I don't know if it's just me but it feels like Mario's FAir has a lot more frames in it that meteor smash. I consistently hit people with his meteor more than I've ever done with him in any Smash game.

 

[T25XL]

We haven't checked what percents his Back-throw KOs at. We also haven't confirmed the frame data on Mario's Jab cancels (extra important given Mario has consistently had a 2 frame Jab in Smash) as well as how legitimate his D-tilt setups are in this game (which seems to have a lot of potential, given hitstun changes). Depending on how good those are, Mario could be more impressive than he looks right at this instant. Having a 2 frame Jab that sets up into other moves including Mario's strong grab is something you can't just simply laugh at.

Though Rosalina is probably broken as ****, because screw unbalanceable puppeteers. Shulk's mode switching also looks ********. But Marth in this game is probably much more fair to play against given you can now actually try to fight him in the air and not feel entirely stupid.

Yea I've taken that into account, that's why I said he'd most likely be mid tier. I mean the way you're describing mario, kind of makes it sound like brawl luigi, since you said jab cancel>grab, even Luigi's Dtilt could be used in some pretty good ways in brawl, plus kill power was enhanced, so it makes mario look very much like luigi in brawl (at least to me, take into account this is all my own opinion). And although these attributes helped, that still only left luigi in the lower part of mid tier. Other characters (to me) seem to have a lot of potential since their moves have a lot more range. palutena, villager (crazy off-stage game), robin, kirby (don't have any recent knowledge, but U+throw was broken last time I saw hungrybox play), rosalina (as mentioned), and zero suit samus. And once their potential is found, mario may just be left in the dust again...of course I'm not hating on mario, I don't care if he's low on the tier list, that just makes beating people with a lower tier character much more satisfying (when I say lower tier, I mean lower than the tier the character which my opponent is using is at, not exactly "low tier"). But eh, we'll see. I may just be wrong, I'm just throwing this out there.

I don't know if it's just me but it feels like Mario's FAir has a lot more frames in it that meteor smash. I consistently hit people with his meteor more than I've ever done with him in any Smash game.

Fair is kind of like the one in ssf2 v0.9b.

 

[Blubolouis]

I played some Mario on the 3DS demo, and I do think mario's fireballs are worse than in brawl, you can't short hop fireball without landing lag, and they seem go down a steeper angle than in brawl, making fireball as a cover while trying to recover a worse option; also I found Mario's grab range to suck, but you really need to see the rest of the cast to compare.

 

[Gawain]

As I did with Link, I'll give my impressions of Mario from the 3DS demo after quite a while of play

The Good
- Down throw. The down throw is awesome. You can combo from ~0 up into the 40s from a single throw on most of the characters in the demo. Down throw into multi U-tilts into one or two aerials is fun and seems really solid
- Fair is mostly the same but it feels safer to use for some reason. Maybe it's the physics. Kinda hard to combo into though
- Uair is really fast and you can string them together really easy
- Mario can build percent crazy fast
The Neutral/Bad
- I feel like he has a somewhat more difficult time KOing after his initial buildup in percent. Maybe it's just me. Maybe I need to experiment more
- I also feel like Mario has a tough time with characters like Pikachu. Pikachu has an easier time breaking out of his combos.

 

[Chiroz]

Stutter Step is definitely in. In order to do it just stall your A button a slight bit.

Also because Air Dodge is no longer an option while close to the ground Mario can link Up-Tilts into aerials for 40-70% on anyone with a laggy Down-Air. If the opponent dodges then just drop and grab him (he will lag incredibly) into Down-Throw into Up-Tilt into aerials.



Also cape apparently now completely turns around a missile, not just horizontally but vertically too. I have been able to cape bombs and items downwards.

 

[Z'zgashi]

One thing you completely failed to mention is that now, Mario is INSANELY safe on shield. Almost every aerial auto cancels to the point where you shouldnt be punished, and even then you can land and immediately go for a mix up on block with ftilt, jab, grab, rising nair, etc, and not be punished for going in. Add in Mario's bair+nair makes a fantastic rush down pair, and he's actually really solid if you play an in your face kinda foostsies game.

 

[A2ZOMG]

One thing you completely failed to mention is that now, Mario is INSANELY safe on shield. Almost every aerial auto cancels to the point where you shouldnt be punished, and even then you can land and immediately go for a mix up on block with ftilt, jab, grab, rising nair, etc, and not be punished for going in. Add in Mario's bair+nair makes a fantastic rush down pair, and he's actually really solid if you play an in your face kinda foostsies game.

Not sure how much I should take your word with a grain of salt. Mario always had good mixups on shield back in Brawl, particularly with his D-air and autocanceled B-air. The main problem is you didn't 1 for 1 trade favorably against many characters, which is presumably less of an issue for Mario in Smash 4 with more reliable combos and juggles, and hopefully better KO setups/options.

Also, as silly as it sounds, I really want to know how practical Mario's F-air is for spacing and pressure, because you can't always face backwards when fighting in Smash. Actually, I'll just be impressed if they give Mario's Up-B complete startup invincibility, thus making it a more consistent reversal/combo breaker.

Oh in other news, saw this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JVE96ZwivE&list=UUYC0LjIsvzyEEO12P1RrBoQ

At really low percents, your U-tilt chains can be interrupted or jumped out of (I really wish that they just cut off 5 frames of ending lag on U-tilt, but w/e). So when you get a D-throw at low percents, I believe you should try doing this instead:

D-throw -> Jab -> U-tilt -> D-throw -> U-tilts -> U-air

Ideally, the U-tilt after Jab will link because the Jab should likely force a hard landing state. I assume that this setup also can bypass the ~1 second regrab time limit.

Otherwise if that proves unreliable, then the default followup will be D-throw -> D-smash for quick percent, then look for another grab and do combos.

Or better yet, if you can link aerials from D-throw, then D-throw -> SH-Dair is probably good.

 

[Blubolouis]

About Fair, if you Fair sweetspot someone while they're on the ground (I guess it's the same for every meteor smash) they can tech immediately, not bouncing off in the air. So the combo potential seems pretty limited.

 

[Gawain]

About Fair, if you Fair sweetspot someone while they're on the ground (I guess it's the same for every meteor smash) they can tech immediately, not bouncing off in the air. So the combo potential seems pretty limited.

Throwing my support in with this. To be honest I don't think fair is going to have much potential for Mario except maybe as a finisher of poor recovery attempts. It's still too slow.

 

[Thatsa]

I tried cape gliding a few times in game and it didn't work for me. I think they took it out

 

[Fire!]

Got some time to play the demo so here's my notes. I really wish I had a human opponent to test with, but oh well.

• Fireball has horrible end lag and I can only pull off one out of a full jump. I don't really feel safe using it as an approach tool and I doubt it will be any more useful when used defensively. No more Fireball to Nair for me...
• Cape, as mentioned no longer helps recovery. In terms of edgeguarding, I'm getting this vibe that it's a combination of Melee and Brawl's Cape, but it might just be the new ledge mechanics messing with me.
• FLUDD is better in this game mostly because you can cover a wider area with it, even when uncharged. When charged, it covers an insane amount of space and comes out immediately, so using FLUDD offstage might be worth looking into.
• Dash Attack around 50%-80% can set up into Forward Air pretty nicely. It's not guaranteed, but it feels good when you pull it off.
• Yes, Mario is really safe on shield, moreso than Brawl, but only slightly. Back Air to Forward Tilt feels great and we'll probably be using it just as much, if not more. It was hard to test with Down Air mostly because short hopping is harder for me on 3DS, but it seems worse, which is a shame.
• I pretty much agree with all that's been said about Down Throw, Up Tilt, Up Air chains.
• Pivot Forward Tilt is fun.
• I doubt we'll be using Forward Air as a means of pressure.
• I don't see much use in Down Tilt. If I recall correctly, it had longer range than Forward Tilt in Brawl and now it doesn't even have that. I can see it used as a mix up, which is why people keep saying it combos into Forward Smash, but that's it. Can't really say unless I test it on a human.
• Like Brawl, the biggest problem we'll have to overcome is finding a way to land KOs and not rely so much on edgeguarding. It seems like the developers did everything to compliment Mario's strengths, but did nothing to directly address his weaknesses.

If you have questions, or want me to test something, feel free to ask.

 

[Lozjam]

Um. Guys.... You can tilt Mario's side smash

 

[Xinc]

Mario's nair weak spot has a low chance to trip. Wouldn't be surprised if all sex kicks can trip.

 

[IronMario31]

Um. Guys.... You can tilt Mario's side smash

Yes you can tilt mario's F-smash. As a Mario main since the SSB days, I also feel that his fireball approach has been taken away or at least decreased in effectiveness. Probably to take away the floaty feeling of brawl. I am having success in using Utilt combos usually stemming from D-Grab's as well. His Bair to Ftilt is effective, fludd looks like it got buffed, UAir combo's beautifully. I am also noticing that his dash attack got improved as well. Increased knock back. Mario's Fair continues to be an effective spiking tool. Like everyone else's spiking moves, it comes with risk when using, but does feel like it comes out faster. Due to a lack of a C-Stick, I can't preform back to back Dair's so Im sure Mario's moveset will be good. We are just basing this off of the 3DS's control layout.

Also If worse comes to worse I hear Dr. Mario returns along with an Up B similar to luigi's which has a sweet spot. With his Melee moveset he will probably have a better combo game than Mario himself.

 

[Scare_Crow]

Personally Mario is my favorite character to play in the demo. He is good to combo with early (Not just against CPU, I've played other humans as well). I dont know how all the other streamers combo but Dthrow-utilt-utilt-usmash-bair is very easy to pull off in my opinion and also can get people up to 50% which is a good percent for Mario to get some kills. If you can knock the opponent off the stage and manage to fair spike, its an easy kill from maybe 75% on all enemies. Also Mario's usmash has great kill potential and is probably my primary move because it also gets them im the air. This is how i feel about Mario, but i will most likely end up playing Dr. Mario more as i hate Fludd even if some people found a use for it, i still dont like it.