Many noob questions (again)

[Zeron]

1. Even if it is frame perfect (shffled dair to shine and back), you can STILL be grabbed out of it? :o

2. Does Fox have a faster pillar? I would think so.

3. Combos vary between characters, right? (Fox = Shine, wavedash, dair, shine, etc. Marth = Shine, double jump, dair, up-tilt, etc.)

4. How useful is the off-the-edge nair? I've seen it used a few times (more priority than Fox illusion and Falco phantasm) and was wondering if it could possibly be used against other characters.

5. I'm used to using X to jump (with the exception of Fox, whom I only flick the control stick up to attempt a SHDL) and the control stick+A to smash and aerial. I've been playing for nearly a year now. Would picking up the c-stick or Y be difficult? I've come to the conclusion that using these buttons properly is imperative for acquiring (can't pillar consistantly, can't do shffled uairs, can't pull off that simple shine, wavedash, dair, shine combo on level 1 CPUs consistantly, etc).

6. I've been recently using Fox against my brother (who now utilizes Sheik, yay). He's incredibly fun to use, but if I switch over to Falco (and vice versa), the feel is very awkward. It takes me awhile to get used to Falco's wavedashes and a few other things. Is that normal? Videos say it's not since I believe players have gone from Fox to Falco and still retain control over them.

7. More on Fox, I'm having trouble deciding. Should I improve my Falco or work on Fox as a secondary? Or replace Falco with Fox as my main overall? I really like playing as Fox, but I've always held some sentimental value for playing as Falco.

8. I've heard that nairs from Fox is a Falco killer or something like that. Why is that?

9. Is there any counter to it?

10. Can't Falco just use his nair?

Whew..noob question from me.

 

[SpeedAcE]

Gzus... That's alot of questions. I can answer a few.

1. Yes, you can be grabbed out of a perfect frame pillar. I believe there are 14 frames in which Falco can be grabbed. A grab comes out in 7 frames. Provided that you fit 7 frames within those 14, then it is possible, albeit difficult. Most people don't try to grab a pillaring Falco, unless you're like Marth or something and it is worth the risk.

5. I can do all of those that you've listed consistently using X to jump. C-stick is hard to transfer if you've been X-ing for a while, but I've been told that it is, in fact, easier once you pick it up.

6. Falco's WD requires a different timing, as well as other things. If you plan to use both of them, then you should become aware and used to these changes.

7. This is subjective. Do you value character potential over sentimental value? I dunno. Lolz @ drama

 

[TheKneeOfJustice]

1. Yes. There is a small window that falco can be grabbed in.

2. I'm not sure, I don't ever pillar with fox.

3. This is a no brainer. Combos will be different on different characters because of things like weight, falling speed, DI, etc.

4. Mango in all his falco noobness uses nair quite well. Watch his videos for ideas. <3 Mango.

5. I use x, and started off using the c-stick. I only ever use y when I am jump canceling shines because the sliding motion from y to b is very speed conducive for JC's. It might be difficult, but retraining your hands for anything is difficult.

6. I can wavedash with everyone pretty well, and after playing with a character like falco for so long, it is pretty natural when I wavedash. It just takes some time, not everything is perfect when you first try.

7. Fox has overall better match-ups, but that has never been enough to convince me to make the switch. It is all personal preference. It is why any of us play our respective mains.

Btw, Falco is a homie from the streets, he's representin' the hood. I'll back my Avian Brotha everytime.

8. Priority.

9. Shield, sidestep, crouch cancel, roll away, etc.

10. No. Priority.

 

[inside]

You can't pillar with fox ...

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

You can't pillar with fox ...

Yes you can. In fact, his pillar can not be shieldgrabbed, as he only has a 5 frame disadvantage after the shine, and shieldgrab comes out in 6 frames. I'll get the frame data in a sec.

Edit 1: Frame Data on Falco's different pillars:

As promised, frame data on Pillaring:

Green = Their Shield is in stun
Red = Their Shield is not in stun

Early Pillar (dair asap out of shine):

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6
7
8 Start Jump
9
10
11
12
13 Airborne (start Dair)
14
15
16
17 Dair Hits, Hitlag
18 Hitlag
19 Hitlag
20 Hitlag
21 Hitlag
22 Hitlag
23 Hitlag
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32 Fast Fall
33
34
35
36 Land, LC lag
37 LC lag
38 LC lag
39 LC lag
40 LC lag
41 LC lag
42 LC lag
43 LC lag
44 LC lag
45 Shine again

Ideal Pillar (Typical Pillar):

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6
7
8 Start Jump
9
10
11
12
13 Airborne
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21 Start Dair
22
23
24
25
26 Dair Hits, HitLag, Fast Fall
27 Hitlag
28 Hitlag
29 Hitlag
30 Hitlag
31 Hitlag
32 Hitlag
33
34
35
36 Land- LC lag
37 LC lag
38 LC lag
39 LC lag
40 LC lag
41 LC lag
42 LC lag
43 LC lag
44 LC lag
45 Shine again

Late Dair (Dair hits right before landing)

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6
7
8 Start Jump
9
10
11
12
13 Airborne
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25 Start Dair
26 Fast Fall
27
28
29 Dair Hits, Hitlag
30 Hitlag
31 Hitlag
32 Hitlag
33 Hitlag
34 Hitlag
35 Hitlag
36 Land, LC lag
37 LC lag
38 LC lag
39 LC lag
40 LC lag
41 LC lag
42 LC lag
43 LC lag
44 LC lag
45 Shine Again


I hope this clarifies everything for everyone, but i have a feeling it's going to generate more questions than answers. This just goes to show, The pillar is not as safe as you think.

Edit: this is the kind of **** you should quote in the first post.

Edit 2: Frame Data for Fox' pillar:

Pillaring (w/ dair):
Shine puts +2 advantage after jump, drill comes out on frame 5, and has a 3 frame disadvantage.
Drill lands w/ 4 frames of shield lag (past the hitstun on the drill), so after l-canceling (9 frames) you have a 5 frame disadvantage.
Escape methods: spot dodge (after shine), spot dodge/ roll/ any one frame attack jc'ed by a 4 frame jumper (after drill)
Shield Damage: 22/ Drill, 5/ shine, 8 for shield decay. 35/ iteration.
Notes: you should position your dair so that it's inside of them (to follow their shield DI/SDI, and to make sure you don't shield poke).