Make Your Move 28: Android 16, Franziska von Karma, Pop Thorn

[Arctic Tern]

Since we're having trouble finishing our sets again, I'm extending the end date of the Jamcon to April 9th, 12:00 PM EDT.

 

[BrazilianGuy]

Hi guys

I heard you were all in need of some romance so I set up a date for all of you, hope you enjoy

Part 1 - Its a date

Guide to who’s who in this moveset: Normal: You, the reader, thoughts and sentences Italic: Secret Character Bold Gray: Narration Baby Blue: Character 1 Orange: Character 2 Green: Me, Brazilian Guy, the author I had an idea, a crazy idea, hope this works, happy April Fools to those that celebr...

docs.google.com

(Jamcom 2 Entry)​

 

[UserShadow7989]

"Our next contestant in the "Joke" category is ready! Hailing from far, far away in parts unknown, famous sci-fi novelist Alanbee has arrived in a costume no doubt inspired by their next literary work!"

"...huh? That's not right? Whatever, that's what the cue cards said, so we're rolling with it. Get in there!"

Jamcon 2 entry. Hope you all have fun with this obscure pick!

 

[Kholdstare]

JamCon entry "Joke"​

 

[Arctic Tern]

Jamcon 28-2 is officially over! We’ve got plenty of entries to read, so let’s get going.

• First off, from yours truly, is the master of dimensions and pleaser of crowds himself, Dimentio! He may be a jester, but both the character and the set are no joke!
• Next, we have Hector Salamanca! Not an official entry since there’s only one move, but it may end up becoming something greater with time.
• Following is Galarian Farfetch’d, a character whose entire existence is based on a joke. Despite that, it’s a serious contender in its own right, whose samurai skills should not be underestimated.
• Then we have Jon Arbuckle from Garfield… in the form of a dating sim! I have no idea why anyone would be compelled to do this but it is most certainly the best Smash moveset/date with Jon Arbuckle of all time.
• Afterwards, we have “Alien” Alanbee, a joke character turned viable option from obscure party game Fortune’s Favor. They may not want to fight, but underestimate them at your own peril!
• Finally, Skibidi Toilet.

A very… interesting competition, to be sure, no doubt a result of the contest’s theme. But as stated prior, this contest is very serious, so get ready to read and vote!

 

[Arctic Tern]

Read and commented every Jamcon set!

My vote overall goes to "Alien" Alanbee. They may be an alien, but their playstyle is far from alien to MYM, and it's one that I feel is much stronger than the other sets for this Jamcon.

 

[BrazilianGuy]

Joke Jamcon Comments 1 - The Tio and The Samurai

Spoiler: Hector Salamanca

Arguably the best pick in this entire tournament. It's hard to really talk about art in it's purest form when you find it, but Tio Hector is just that, art in form of a moveset. He masterfully captures ALL the elements that make his character beloved in Breaking Bad, he is in a wheelchair, can't move, and he blows up, Bravo Vince.

Seeing bold decisions being taken is also something inspiring. This moveset has not one but two bold maneuvers. The first is to include Tuco as part of Hector's moveset, it's rather unexpected, as youd think he'd have his own TIGHT moveset, but once you rething it, it makes sense, Tuco would do anything for his Tio, he would be fighting for and alongside him in a time of need such as Smash Bros. And even if Tuco is merely part of of Hector's Set, he is still in the game, Charizard isn't less of a playable character just because he's part of Pokémon Trainer, likewise I find Tuco being here an inspiring, unexpected, but good choice. The second bold decision was not having a Tuco moveset.

anyway uuuh I liked when Hector said "ask Gus, you don't wanna face off against me!" and I liked when his stats where just 0, very funny, if I was judging STRICTLY on how well these movesets deliver the Jamcon theme, ie Joke, Hector would win by a landslide.

I also need to finish Better Call Saul, dang.

Spoiler: Galarian Farfetch'd

Getting it started, love the pick, not only do I love base Kanto Farfetch'd, I also used Galarian Farfetch'd and later a Sirfetch'd in my Pokémon Sword playthrough. I also really like the idea of making him just an outright Samsho character, is a very fun idea to make a Light character that deals so much damage and either prospers or dies fairly easily. I also like the slides, I'm more of a visuals fella, your stuff inspires me as to how far we can push presentation in a moveset.

He trully fits the Joke theming as well, since at times it does feel like he could play like someone from SamSho, a Samurai Movie, or even Nago from Guilty Gear, considering how he plays very differently from other light characters, my man deals big damage and kills good. He also has great range, I mean, the duck has BUSTER SWORD of range, thats crazy.

He also has a ton of fun move concepts, of course, I really love Down Special Swagger + Counter, being the biggest example of his Live or Die playstyle. The samurai way is a difficult path to trail, but I like how it can be used, for example, to counter an opponent that's too ok with using burst movement options or something, as they get the boost and then immediately get countered.

Forward Throw is also a fairly simple throw, but the stealing portion is very fun, I always think Smash should have more moves that mess with items.

Side Special is cool for the armor he gets, and while I get that he unleashes a ton of hits since it's Close Combat, feel like it could describe how he unleashes this close combat. And I have to say, Poison Jab is cool, but a little bit out of nowhere? Feels odd that the Foolish Samurai Warrior wielding a Leek Sword just uses poison on this one move and then nothing like it again, just odd, of course it fits cause he is a Pokémon and that is a Pokémon Move, but ya know, feels out of place.

Also wanna point out that his Down Tilt says "speed" when I think it should be "spear", and Back Throw is also lacking a bit in the second paragraph, I think? I can still see the vision with it but it's important to point out. Also he doesn't have 8 alts, I'm annoying about alts sorry.

Otherwise, I really enjoyed how you characterized him as a lil' birdy samurai that can and will slice and dice you, the win screen where he cuts the grass is very cool. You did a good job for Galarian Farfetch'd Chonk my dude. Still gotta read your other sets, but you are cooking good with this format in my view.

 

[Hyper_Ridley]

Jon Arbuckle by BrazilianGuy
Finally, the 7 deadly sins of MYM28 have a lust rep! "MYM dating sim" was not a space I expected to fill on my 2025 bingo card. It's definitely among the most unique ways of formatting a moveset I've seen, and it got some good laughs out of me.

He reminds me of Dan from Street Fighter 4, where's he's technically an UP joke character but has enough goofy tricks for the mad lads out there to pull it off. The comic panel is a cool special, but my favorite attack was NAir, giving him 2 different hitboxes for playing the accordion was a really fun touch. The one thing I thought was too far was the coffee interaction between FAir and Jab, it just felt a bit too gimmicky for my tastes (and too caffeinated for Jon's tastes).

What are the odds that both of your MYM28 sets have a stove-summoming mechanic? I wonder what recipe Gabby Gator would read for Jon.

That final smash implies Gorefield is somehow involved in MYM28's story mode. God help us.

 

[Katapultar]

Dimentio [Arctic Tern]
Another revamp of an old Warlord set, Dimentio is a more simplistic and combo-orientated take on the duplicate genre, along with some fun in-character writing (not sure if you came up with some of the metaphors, but props to you either way). Rather than use duplicates as Ice Climbers, they effectively function as minions that you can program, giving them a solid amount of mix-ups and conditioning towards how opponents deal with them. That duplicates can potentially be locked out of using grounded or aerial inputs is a fascinating design choice, and it gets mileage here with conditioning opponents to take to the ground or the air. Side Special is front-loaded for a projectile start-up wise, the type of extreme that feels like something I’d implement in a set.

I don’t have too much to say with Dimentio, but there are some moves here that I’m pretty fond of. Down Smash is a highlight for how it works with your clones’ nerfed damage, as the downwards knockback takes advantage of their knockback nerf in a natural way to make the attack surprisingly stronger in their enlarged hands. Forward Smash is unorthodox in a way that appeals to me, and Up Smash has a neat little interaction with Side Special for extending combos. Forward Air is also weirdly a highlight for me - it’s a carbon copy of Luigi’s Forward Air, yet the set has a different application for it thanks to Dimentio’s air speed being different from Luigi. Finally, Down Throw’s clone interaction is neat for what is effectively a clone combo starter if I understand correctly, albeit dependent on the moves you had logged into your clone.


Skibidi Toilet [KholdStare]
This might be the most disturbing character I’ve read a moveset for in a while. It almost feels like the type of character that would come from a joint set between you and GolisoPower.

Skibidi Toilet is missing some details one would normally expect from a set, like damage percents and the corruption rate of Neutral Special, but you know what? I’m actually fine without those details. I’m here for the ideas, and this set actually has some very fun ideas. I also like how the properties on each move are split up.

(I’m also aware that you don’t have much time for movesetting, so I think you getting a Jamcon entry out is a big accomplishment)

Creepy factor aside, MYM rarely has movesets that involve turning your opponent into another character ALA Skibidi’s Neutral Special. I only remember Sarkhan Vol being able to turn opponents into Charizard, and I imagine that you do too. I could see how changing your opponent’s character would be a controversial design choice, but I think a moveset revolving around the concept would be really cool. Like, a moveset that’s designed in a way where the character has some kind of natural advantage in mirror matches.

Up Special is a neat versatile recovery, and Down Special’s adaptations sort of remind me of the Adapter Beast minion from ForwardArrow’s Knight moveset. I have to give you serious props for writing Skibidi animations and visuals for different adaptations. Dash Attack is a neat move past the Specials for its shockwave hitbox, and Forward Tilt’s property of having less end lag on-hit.

The set also has a cool set of Smashes. Forward Smash makes use of Skibidi’s smokescreen mechanic, being a strong hitbox with clanking properties. It’s nice that there are scenarios where opponents are better positioned to take advantage of Skibidi’s smokescreens. Up Smash has a genuinely unique idea via “randomized aiming,” and actually reminds me of Tern’s Oogie Boogie set where you can get rid of the RNG factor via charging. Meanwhile, Down Smash is a classic MYM’ian construct with a lot of uses. The move’s initial hitbox does lack the detail necessary to understand how the spawned barrel works on-hit, but it would be easy to include that information. Also a fan of Forward Air’s unorthodox attack angle.

U-air’s writing is funny. Forward Throw also has a fancy way with words. The entire grab game does, in fact.


Jon Arbuckle [Brazillian Guy]
I just have to say this - Jon is a really good “joke” set in my opinion. Like, this set is genuinely funny, in a way that honestly gives WCF’s Philomena Cunk a run for her money. I am impressed by the amount of effort that went into the “story” and the presentation + writing of this set, especially for a Jamcon and MYM as a whole where the moves and concepts take priority. The pictures also add a lot to the experience: the ever-changing imagery is particularly funny, like Garfield dressing up as Sonic the Hedgehog. The “is this real enough?” gag in particular is an absolute masterpiece, in my opinion. Reminds me of the live-action Garfield movie from when I was a kid (and the Click movie). If MYM sets prioritized humour, this moveset would easily get a Super Vote.

Now, onto the moveset itself! Jon is a funny character pick, especially when his cat is playable in a canonical Smash clone, so I’m glad someone made a set for him. I think it’s in-character for Jon to go out on dates and look for marriage candidates? That’s the impression the online date premise of the set gives, and I’m pretty sure Jon is canonically unmarried. Even if not, I vaguely know that the Garfield fandom has done some really crazy things, so Jon getting this kind of set treatment tracks.

Jon getting an item-spawning Neutral Special has some personal appeal to me, with creative liberties taken to ensure that the food he cooks can be weaponized. I really like the design choice behind giving Jon a command grab that sets up for his item throws, as it gives him a way to bypass shields when holding an item inhibits them. Something I want to do myself in a set.

I don’t actually dislike Jon’s pie being hilariously OP. It seems to be shockingly in-character for Jon to get murderous over a pie, assuming that comic strip isn’t edited, and the chances of actually spawning the pie are really low anyway. Heck, I actually think this is one of the best and most practical/tasteful (no pun intended) implementations of a “lol OP move” that you’d normally see on an old joke set for a broken character with a bunch of insta-kill moves. 500% does feel absurdly high compared to the other numbers and this being a “serious” set - I’d say to bring it down to 50% while keeping its insta-kill properties, and you’re golden. Dealing 500% would allow Jon to cheese bosses if the RNG gods favour him.

Jon’s Up Special admittedly got me to look up Garfield Kart on Youtube. I like the flavour behind his Down Special, where Jon draws a large comic strip, but I think that giving himself an area where he can tank a single hit is overpowered in an unfun way. I get how it’s meant to synergize with Neutral Special set-up, but Jon can draw panels pretty fast, and being able to face-tank anything short of a grab or a multi-hit would massively limit what most fighters can do without being punished. Also not sure how Jon staying inside a panel he drew gives him armour from a flavour perspective, but that’s a minor issue in comparison. Not sure how you’d change the effect, but there’s a lot you could do with the abstract nature of magically creating comic panels.

Moving past the Specials, Jon feels like a “slice of life character done right.” Specifically, his moves have him do casual things that would be in-line with his actions from the comics, rather than going out of your way to make him more violent. Jab involves drinking coffee and Up Tilt is a dance move. These casual animations also help to add character. I also like Jon getting moves for Garfield from the NASB games. D-tilt is funny, as it has a chance of tripping “you” instead of the opponent as a way to balance out its spammability. Good to see N-air acknowledging z-drops via NSpec Items - another move with a neat gimmick that limits its spammability, and makes sense given the attack’s animation. Damage isn’t mentioned on this move, but I didn’t have a problem with that on Skibidi Toilet so neither do I here.

Forward Air has a funny animation, and the comic strip accompanying it is… something else. The move’s speed buff gimmick with Jab is a bit weird input-wise, and probably unintuitive for players despite how much it makes sense animation-wise. Would also be neat if the set went into more detail on how the speed boost benefits Jon, but I won’t complain much when this is a Jamcon set and top-tier joke entry. U-air reminds me of Villager’s turnip attacks, and is just interesting to see someone tackle RNG in such a way.

Man, that’s one powerful Back Throw lol. Also can’t help but imagine Jon getting hearts in his eyes when he uses his Forward Smash on Cunk. I like that his Smashes don’t appear to be intended acts of violence, but still have enough force to distinguish themselves as his stronger moves.

Jon was a blast to read, a great experience. I can’t rank him too highly compared to other movesets, as I don’t think his concepts are as strong or synergize as well as other sets of yours like Scarecrow, but I do have some positive bias in how some of Jon’s Specials and moves were designed. Kind of surprised that he was intentionally supposed to be a bad character, but he still feels very playable, and I’m glad you didn’t make him so weak that he wouldn’t feel satisfying to play with.


"Alien" Alanbee [Usershadow7989]
Wasn’t expecting a third FF character for this Jamcon, but it makes sense here! I was looking forward to reading this set after looking at Tern’s comment, as mind control is something I’ve wanted to do meaningfully for a while. This set handles mind control in a fairly tame manner, and a unique one too - most mind control is handled like “control character for X seconds,” but Alanbee can only give foes a certain number of commands, can’t make them use Specials, and they can only attack if they have an actual target to hit. Mind-controlled foes can even hit Alanbee, and I think it’s a good thing that you resisted the (potential) temptation to give him a counter. Auto-turning as a more “low key” form of mind control also makes sense, and only on a “cartoon” character would mind controlling projectiles to reflect them makes sense. Also have to give this set props for its wild writing.

Alanbee does what I’d hope and expect mind control sets to do: set a bunch of traps that you can walk your mind-controlled opponent into. Part of me wonders if Alanbee’s mine and soldier count are a bit too generous - I could see cases where Alanbee stacks 3 mines in the same area and deals absolutely ridiculous damage (unless I overlooked something that prevents this) - but the fact that both can be removed with one hit really helps to balance things out. The soldiers get particularly interesting when they can be mind controlled and effectively used as programmable duplicates, as minions are another concept that get a lot of fun out of mind control. Between that and Alanbee’s Dash Attack, I swear that you and Tern shared a braincell when writing up your entries for this Jamcon.

Alanbee is reasonably simple after the Specials, aside from the neat pseudo-pocket the grab has on your constructs. Kind of a fifth Special: is neat that you can store mind-controlled constructs for later, more practical uses, though I could see “hold grab button to do this” being a tad unintuitive for new players without a guide. Down Throw off grab game is a different take on the usual “tech scenario” type throws, as foes have the option to tech and Alanbee has the range necessary to get something off of it even if the foe does tech. U-tilt has an elaborate hitbox and animation, while D-tilt has a funky animation and the potential projectile that can be exploited when used by a soldier. U-air is neat in how its hitbox works as well as U-Smash, which has a hilariously elaborate visual description in a good way. Placing the Smashes section at the end of the set was an unusual design choice for you, and created interesting expectations where I thought they were going to be super crazy stuff that played with Alanbee’s mind control (even though U-Smash technically fits this bill). Not that all the Smashes have to be crazy (especially on a Jamcon): F-Smash and D-Smash have their own uses in the set, and restraining yourself can be the smarter choice.


Hector Salamanca [Slavic]
Bold choice to make an actual one-input jokeset. I actually like this approach to jokesetting: what’s here - the intro, stat, mechanic and Neutral Special - has enough quality and effort put into it to keep the reader’s attention, yet it’s a super light read compared to modern MYM sets. Your writing style makes this more entertaining!

I’m not entirely versed with Hector’s backstory and history in Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul, but this set feels like it’s specifically plucking the character from one scene in the show. Not to say that’s a bad thing, but it does make me assume that Hector is never portrayed pre-wheelchair in the show, as a menacing kingpin who could have had an able-bodied set via using his men to beat people up (though that would taken far more ambition).

Hector’s stats section feels like a humorous parody. We’ve had a few sets for characters in wheelchairs - Dr. Strangelove, Armie Buff, Joe Swanson and GanD this contest - but only on a jokeset can you get away with a character who can’t move! What is this, MYM12? Imagining other characters assisting Hector is cute, and kind of makes me think about a potential wheelchair OC.

“On his own, Hector out of his chair is essentially helpless, but if a teammate is nearby they can interact with Hector to place him back in his chair if he’s nearby. If not, they can perform a friendly grab to carry him back to wherever his vehicle of choice is parked. “ So uhhh, does this mean that you can put Hector on Wario’s bike? Or get him to drive Garbage Man’s truck? That would be scary. His weirdly crazy tough guy armour and disruptive bell NSpec make him sound annoying to fight, but that doesn’t matter because he’s not meant to be balanced.

This jokeset kind of leaves me wanting more: both for the concepts, and the promise of Tuco Salamanca and more Breaking Bad representation. Even as-is, I think these kinds of jokesets are good for MYM: just a fun little thing that gets readers thinking and doesn’t have to be taken seriously, just as MYM is meant to be for fun.


Galarian Farfetch'd [TortoiseNotTurtle]
This is a very interesting Pokemon choice for this Jamcon, especially with the fascinating decision to use Samurai Shodown as the inspiration for the moveset. We really could do with an actual SamSho moveset for MYM.

G-Farfetch’d is a very simple glass cannon “sword” based set. I like that G’s leek has its length described, yet you also factor in its shorter height compared to the average human swordie.

• Interesting take on the move Brutal Swing. I could see a tiny bit of room to clarify on what type of follow-ups G can get based on charge. Even something as simple as “quick follow-up with no charge, big attack with full charge.” Leaving grounded opponents crumpled would also open up tech situations. The high damage from a fully-charged hit would definitely help you take stocks.
• Side Special and Down Special have an interesting thing going, where both are powerful in exchange for making G-Farfetch’d more vulnerable to damage afterwards. I’m actually pretty fond of how Swagger works from a gameplay perspective, as both the damage buff and counter aspect incentivize offensive play. Big damage multiplier = big incentive for opponent to throw out a big hit for you to potentially counter. Don’t think we’ve ever had an attack in MYM that combines an enemy buff with a counter. Swagger also functions as a natural “comeback” move when you use it when your damage is really high and the extra damage taken wouldn’t matter.
• I like Jab and Dash Attack having an emphasis on safety, something that G-Farfetch’d would really need. Nice that synergy between certain moves is noted. D-Smash having a strong late back hitbox is also a nice little trick for that type of input.
• Item-stealing via F-throw does feel unnecessarily gimmicky, especially on a Pokemon that isn’t known to steal from others like Liepard. Probably the type of effect that’s better to implement on a Special. Set isn’t being harmed by keeping the effect in, though. (is a bit weird that F-throw’s tech chase properties are only mentioned in the throw interactions slide and not the throw itself)
• D-throw sounds very mean on lightweights. Honestly might be a bit much, as lightweights will already die earlier from their lighter weight, especially from a powerful fighter like G-Farfetch’d.
• Forward Air and Back Air kind of feel like they invoke “Pokemon Syndrome” to a degree. Basically a case where giving a Pokemon certain attacks doesn’t necessarily feel right, even if they can learn those moves in-game. I guess it kind of feels out of place for G-Farfetch’d to use poison or turn its wings to steel for regular attacks when it’s more about swinging its leak around like the Fighting-type Pokemon it is.

Jamcon nomination goes to "Alien" Alanbee, but I have to give a special shout-out to Jon Arbuckle. The latter was a very entertaining read and might have best encompassed the "joke" theme of the Jamcon, but it wouldn't have been fair on the other entries if I deviated from my usual means of rankings sets just for him.

 

[tunz]

I'm in a bit of a downtime period for movesetting, so figured I'd just chuck this out there since I was already planning on announcing it-

For the Long Con, arranged by n88, I'm officially submitting my favorite creation this contest, and maybe in all of my MYM career, King Bob-Omb! (The post where his moveset is linked is the literal first post after the start of the MYM28 thread)

 

[n88]

Dimentio by Arctic Tern
I had a hard time getting into this one - you're a strong designer but Dimentio specifically didn't resonate with me as much as your other recent stuff I've read. Still looking forward to catching up on Shauntal anyway, so I hope a lukewarm comment doesn't come across as a sign of lost faith.

NSpec is one of those moves that would be wild in the context of Smash itself but is kind of an old friend in the context of MYM. And (at least for me), it's a friend I wish would get his act together a little bit. I know other people have more of an appetite for this sort of thing, but for me whenever we're stealthily move programming a clone with no feedback and hitting jump to toggle aerials it just starts to feel really unlike Smash's intuitive control systems.

I think in this case Dimentio also doesn't necessarily get... that much out of them having this crazy range of options? Like, I dunno, if they had a few canned attacks he could pick between more simply, I think it'd be a more digestible and balanced framework. Putting hard limits on their knockback/damage is good but Dimentio has some silly hitboxes in his moveset and giving them access to those feels pretty strong, especially in the context that basically every clone move is a combo-starter. Ultimately the moveset's synergies with NSpec are fairly simple, but NSpec itself achieves that through a pretty intricate mechanism - I'm not sure it's adding the depth to earn its complexity.

(To compare/contrast with a different recent moveset of yours, Killer BOB, I think he also does some duplicate programming stuff but with duplicates of the opponent - to me that one makes a lot of sense. Killer BOB's version is a bit lighter weight to begin with and gets more immediate results anyway, but I think he also has more reason to want it there in the first place. It's a duplicate of the opponent, that could be a My Little Pony or it could be Valozarg. Just use their own kit, interacts more cleanly and saves time - BOB gets to simplify his own workload that way! Dimentio feels like he's giving himself extra homework here.)

That's not to say this sort premise that can't work, but NSpec feels like one of those little MYMisms that gets an "okay but this better be good" reaction out of me. I want my initial doubts to be stomped into the dirt. I want to be looking back at the duplicate programming like "I was wrong and this was the only way to do it. There is a duplicate programming shaped hole in the fabric of this moveset and nothing else would have sufficed. This transgression against god's order has propelled the moveset to new heights".

(Okay, that's hyperbolic - broadly and more plainly it's okay to spin up funky/unorthodox ideas and I don't want to sound like a Big Crazy Move Hater, but big swings do often want more support to feel like natural design choices. Dimentio is making NSpec the star of the show and using it as a platform to build off of mechanically, but without really supporting it on that gamefeel level that I'd really want in order to buy into the idea.)

So anyway Dimentio wasn't the Tern set for me, which I was a bit surprised by because I usually enjoy your jamcon entries. Glad I read it though - there're still some fun moves in there, and I had to sit and think about why I wasn't having a lot of fun with this one. It's tight enough that it's not a huge chore to get through even when not super on board with what it's doing.

One other nagging thought I had while reading was that I wasn't sure how badly he really relied on DSpec/NSpec? The set brings up the idea that he needs to make space so that he can get to those moves here and there, but he's got a pretty generous blend of range and speed on a lot of his normals. I do think he could put up a pretty good fight just leaning on that and then settle for opportunistic NSpecs/DSpecs here and there without fishing too hard for 'em. In general I worry a little bit about stuff like Jab and FSmash (though they're fun inputs) on a puppet character that doesn't really have to commit too much to his puppet once it's out.

The moveset's reference/recontextualization of bits and bobs from Luigi is a fun motif and a highlight on moves where that's present - makes perfect sense and it's always cool to see movesets that highlight stuff in the kits of real fighters.

I kinda hate doing this because I hate assigning numbers to feelings and art but in recognition of the fact that my comments are rambly and rarely make it clear where I land on a moveset (and the community's pretty clear preference for Number)...

Stray thoughts:

• NSpec was slightly hard to follow because the explanation of logging jumps around a bit too much to make for easy reading, like a sign-spinner who just chugged a 4loko.
• SSpec is strong enough that it wins a lot of projectile wars - destroys most fast, casual projectiles and keeps going. Which maybe the move is aware of, but I wasn't quite sure from the description.
• DSpec at the ledge feels a little spooky, especially just using the fact that it's solid to stuff recoveries. IMO if he whiffs the timing people should get to recover, it's strong enough as it is.
• Really enjoy FSmash - hitbox is maybe kinda generous, Bob-Omb explosions are pretty big I think. Up Smash is fun too - in general I'm a fan of the Smashes.
• Did not take a ton of move-by-move notes on this one, I was more turning over the structure and figuring out how to articulate my feelings on that. It feels pretty solid moment-to-moment though, my doubts are more in the architecture.

Hector Salamanca by Slavic
This Shigaraki & Nomu Kronk & Yzma reboot is weird.

Galarian Farfetch'd by T TortoiseNotTurtle
This is a pretty bite-sized moveset that I'm not gonna have as much to say about as Dimentio. It does have some fun ideas - the core vision is strong and I think the idea of a Cloud/Ike type Big Swordie but with a small body is really fun. The set doesn't always do that much to leverage the uniqueness of that dynamic though - there's not a lot of acknowledgement of how the itty bitty hurtbox might influence his play. Like the fact that he's a pipsqueak immediately makes his FTilt pretty different from Ike's (despite the similar animation, Galarian Farfetch'd would presumably hit way lower) but the moveset doesn't really make anything of that.

The two-stage DSpec is really neat but also feels underpowered to me. "Counter that works at range" is nice but it's not game-breaking, especially locked behind another move, and I'm not sure it's really worth the buff you're handing the opponent. It is really funny to hand the opponent buffs and then try to counter them, though, I love the premise. Fits right into the moveset's themes and feels like a natural thing to put on a silly Smash character. The rest is fine-tuning.

Speaking of which, the active frames on some moves are a bit high? It stuck out on FTilt particularly, which is an Ike-esque FTilt (using his animation for reference even) but somehow has 8 frames of activity to Ike's 2 - being active that long wouldn't feel like a quick slash. Even Marth FTilt, which is a big arc, is only active for 4. (NSpec is similarly a slash with high activity but I was more willing to handwave it there since... it's a big tentpole move, maybe there's some energy effects, idk). Not a huge deal but it was something I noticed that could be worth refining.

There's nothing wrong with concision but descriptions can feel a little too tight at times. The set does inject the odd character/animation detail, which is nice, but a lot of moves get compressed down to "simple UTilt/simple DTilt" and there's not always a strong sense of specificity.

He's a breezy read though, can't complain about that even if I'm more apt to gravitate toward something with a little more to dig into.

Stray thoughts:

• For some reason my browser just will not load the whole slideshow, it abruptly stops at 26 and I thought the moveset wasn't finished. Phone loads the whole thing fine though so not like my network can't handle it. Wack.

Jon Arbuckle by BrazilianGuy
Man I remember you posting about Jon Arbuckle before, maybe as a Movetober? So glad to see it pay off with a Jon Arbuckle moveset. He's not the strongest moveset this jamcon mechanically - he doesn't define his playstyle too strongly and feels like he's kinda just winging it in terms of the overall design.

But in terms of just being a generally delightful reading experience this was the peak of the jamcon, and I really appreciate that he does have a full kit even if it's a loose, playful one. Straight-up jokesets are, IMO, really difficult. It's hard to be genuinely funny in a vacuum and I think Jon finds a good balance of having real mechanics to straight man the gags and provide structure while being more focused on the comedy.

Even past the absurdity of the premise (Jon Arbuckle Smash Bros moveset by way of a dating sim, god I love how absurdly niche this community can get), the writing here is just genuinely funny in a way that isn't easy to pull off. The commitment to the bit with alternate VN "endings" and various Garfield visual gags is extremely good as well, I love the image edits throughout and I think the narration skews exactly the right amount of wild to add color without getting off-track.

I'm also gonna take a moment to praise DSpec - I saw Kat had some balance concerns about it and I think that's fair, but leveraging Jon being a cartoonist to have him create panels is a brilliant choice. It's a non-obvious thing to do with the character that actually makes perfect sense, and I think it pulls a trick that is kinda Smash-y (using the character to represent the home genre and series) in a way that dovetails neatly into the character. If you wanted to play with it a little, a thought I had for how to tone it down would be to have panels only provide super armor when one of Jon's bad animations kicks in (burns food, gets scared of mouse, etc.). I think it'd dovetail with the idea that Jon is the butt of a lot of jokes in the comic, making the panels a showcase for his failures, and also encourage him to go for stuff and to heck with the (perhaps RNG) repercussions. (That'd probably require a lot of retuning and reworking to build into the set though, and I think Jon is a fun little piece of art as it is, so no pressure to go build him up into something more serious)

Very fun read! I need to catch up on your more serious stuff this contest though, was a big Ed fan last time around.

"Alien" Alanbee by U UserShadow7989
Insane that I'm getting two-nickeled on duplicate programmers with Luigi Dash Attack this jamcon. Alanbee does tackle some of the same concepts I was a little shaky on in Dimentio, but has more feedback in the UI design and simpler control, plus it feels more discoverable. Like Alanbee can use its brain control on the dupe soldiers but they're kinda just one piece of this whole madcap thing.

The gigabrain set-ups feel like they have pretty sharp rails - commands use resource, soldiers are fragile, grabs have good constraints, opponents break out of mind control easily - the one thing I could maybe see being a little more careful about is extending the cooldown on mind controlling the opponent? 1 second isn't a ton for what I can imagine being a bit of a feel-bad to get hit with repeatedly. Not gonna sweat numbers too much in a jamcon though (I could also see mine damage coming down).

The moveset doesn't unpack the impact of just directly using NSpec all by itself - there's very little discussion of the move on its own, but I think realistically it's a pretty good set-up tool? Hard to say without frame data but if Alanbee gets frame advantage off the base version, forcing the opponent to run a short distance away and then toss out a laggy attack is probably pretty great? The distances involved in the forced movement are pretty sensibly small so forced movement on its own shouldn't be too compromising.

It's hard not to get on board with how much fun the moveset is having with the madcap energy - I think the normals find a good balance between playing it simple and just going for oddball range-y moves that have funky applications and introducing the odd funky interaction like ground chunk golf that works into the zanier side of the kit.

This was clearly fun to write and think about - always love the Fortune's Favor stuff. The energy really comes through in the moveset and makes it hard not to have a good time with.

Skibidi Toilet by Kholdstare
This is the most I have had to learn about Skibidi Toilet - I haven't been avoiding it, but I just don't tend to run across it in my day-to-day or even my year-to-year. Don't quite get what the big deal is after reading this, but what do I know.

There's some interesting conceptual stuff going on here - the way the smokescreens work in this set is genuinely really cool. Really strong horror vibes to have all these big attacks that are kinda easy to challenge but in turn feed back into the neutral game set-up. Big fan of that mechanic and I think it's the central idea that the set gets the most out of at the moment.

Transforming the opponent into a Skibidi Toilet is very funny especially on the meta level for kind of a memetic character. It does admittedly seem potentially annoying but hard to say it's for sure busted without more details - if you go back and build this up more (which like, totally fair if you'd rather focus on other stuff and leave this as a simple jamcon fella) I'd be careful about it. The set doesn't do too much with being able to force a mirror match, I don't think? It's interesting but not a space that's really being used much.

Then the last big centerpiece type thing here is the adaptation stuff - the aesthetics of this are actually really fun and extra in a way I enjoy. I do think mechanically it's a weird thing to care about this much mechanically and the set would probably be better balanced if it didn't invest heavily in Type in terms of the mechanics. I think doing animation stuff based on the Type is really cool and already there though so it'd make sense to keep that even if you did want to rework things and pivot away from the Type being the thing that really mattered mechanically. (I feel like other people have probably pointed this out but 0.6x damage is a really big nerf against any attack, but being able to casually pick that up against big swaths of an opponent's moveset is scary)

The set kinda misses the opportunity to weave the adaptation and corruption together - Skibidi Toilet actively gets to influence his opponent's available options but that doesn't really come up (his attacks don't even make note of their own Types!). In general the whole shebang ends up feeling a bit rushed in places, though it's a fun read. Pretty light stuff, and there are a lot of good gags throughout. I think Adaptation probably needs a rework and Corruption needs some more careful fleshing-out but move-to-move the animations are fun and he's got some solid conceptual basis if you do end up wanting to build it up more.

Stray thoughts:

• I think this moveset is missing a link to the Skibidi Anthem somewhere early, I don't know it.
• Glad I learned that the game actually has internal "butt" and "feet" flags for hitboxes from this moveset and not from an Azur Lane set.
• "frame 5.676e+8" - this is a good bit but I think you forgot to convert from seconds to frames.
• A lot of good gags throughout the moveset.
• I don't know what a Minecraft piston is like, I have a 401k.

Giving my vote this jamcon to "Alien" Alanbee.

 

[n88]

Belphemon by SaltySuicune
The animation style of Belphemon just sleeping by default and only waking up for (some) attacks is a great way of implementing the guy without overcomplicating things - feels very true to the theme of the set. Broadly there are some fun animation choices throughout the set and I think that's probably the best thing it has going for it at the moment.

He does feel a little undercooked in terms of playstyle at the moment. NSpec has a pretty strong pitch - sure, man, go ahead and spam that projectile, play lazy as heck! But beyond that, aside from the odd combo mention, moves don't really push the idea that they're too synergistic or contribute to a central playstyle. I don't think that's an inherent weakness on your end or anything - I've read others of yours that sold me better on the overall vision and that one I previewed the other day also has a stronger core conceit. I think Belphy here is your first set in quite a while though - better part of a year? - so it's natural to be shaking the rust off a little bit, I'm contending with that myself at the moment.

The odd number or potential combo stuck out to me as sounding a little off, but I don't want to get too bogged down in nitpicking - thought I'd key in on a couple things to highlight instead as points where the set could build on what it's doing.

The set points at DTilt as a viable OoS right now - I know he's been through some tweaks so it's possible that was slightly more true at some point in the past. Even a basically instantaneous DTilt wouldn't be that fast an OoS though! Basically, dropping a shield takes 11 frames - so if you're picking any attack as your OoS option that requires dropping your shield, you're adding 11 frames of start-up to that. 11-12 frames is also just about the most start-up you want on an OoS option. More than that and you're leaving yourself pretty open to get interrupted.

I think NAir having armor (an unspecified amount?) definitely makes it his go-to OoS at the moment. Hitting on frame 11 would be a bit slow otherwise - Sephi's NAir is frame 9 and that's probably about as slow as a good OoS aerial can be without something juicy going for it. Armor would definitely be "something juicy" though. Characters like Ike and DK that have armored USpecs will use those a lot OoS.

I'm particularly highlighting this stuff because OoS is a situation that naturally lends weight to certain inputs (grab, USmash, USpec, aerials). If you're savvy to examples of good OoS moves in Ultimate and the kinds of choices the game naturally rewards (the "default" playstyle so to speak), it can help inform a lot of design decisions around those moves. It's a really cool area of the game to learn about and try to design around because it constrains your options so much. It's a sort of universal canned scenario! You don't have to worry too much about what every little piece of the kit is doing, just the key OoS inputs. How easily your fighter can turn things around under shield pressure, and what that looks like, will lend a lot of character and playstyle to a moveset on its own.

Funny to see a 3v1 mode here - is that Hypah's influence? These are nostalgic for me, I need to take a swing at one sometime.

Anyway, this is a lightweight fun read and I learned something about Digimon. Digimon never disappoints, it always sounds significantly more horrifying than I'd assumed. That said I'd want a little more playstyle focus to really get into the design pitch, so he's not doing numbers on the rankings; one star. (That probably sounds bad? I see now why other people's rankings add a bunch of stars at the bottom even if they practically never use those. But anything non-0 is at some level good for me)

 

[BrazilianGuy]

Joke Jamcon Comments 2 - The Jester

Spoiler: Dimentio

I have a very superficial knowledge of Dimentio, as I remember watching a playthrough of his game way back when I was younger, I also remember him from FFC2; he was a main antagonist throughout all of FFC after his introduction in 2. However, what I really recall from that specific Dimentio moveset was how he could make walls, and he went against Revolver Ocelot, whose shots would get stronger the more they bounced on walls, leading to a very one-sided matchup. This has nothing to do with THIS Dimentio moveset but I like to mention these random non-sequitors.

Off the bat one thing I really liked on this moveset was how many comparisons to Luigi there are, which seems kinda random until you realize that yeah no, it makes sense for Dimentio to get a couple of similarities to him, I like that. It helps they are also not 1 to 1 call outs, like he has Loogi Up Air in his Up Tilt, that one I really like as the flip fits Dimoogi on that input. Even his Forward Air, which shows the most Luiginess of the whole set (expect the final smash I guess) it still works differently enough, plus its not like Smash characters can`t share moves.

Obviously I think the highlight of this set are the CLONES, as someone who really likes Jojo Heritage for the Future, I enjoy that you have to code in what your Clone does before he goes out to the world, also fits his schemer ways very well. My favorite use of them, and move in the whole set, is Down Special, with how you banish them to the 2D realm and if a clone is in there it will simply do an anime ambush and completely fry whoever is inside, I honestly find that so cool and awesome. It`s also fair since you are using two important resources to have it work (clone + box). Clones can be tricky to do, but the one in this set does well.

Up Smash is also a highlight in how it lets you juggle Shurikens, my dumb suggestion is to let him juggle items he`s holding, so like he could juggle a bob-omb and have it explode in the air hitting someone, or juggling a Mr Saturn to have it break a shield from someone above him. Its silly but I think it fits the silly.

Yeah, all in all Dimentio is very solid, great stuff for the schemer 2D jester.

 

[UserShadow7989]

Jamcon Comment time! apologies for the lack of organizational pizzazz and short sentences; normally I extrapolate my notes into something more wordy, but time constraints and my brain are restricting me right now; here's the raw notes and nothing but the notes!


Dimentio by Arctic Tern
-I would allow Dimentio to program aerials in his clones just by pressing the jump button in place of A, rather then it being a 'toggle'. Dash attack is mentioned as usable by clone but not given a means of input, would recommend back + a. The ability to program in inputs during a dodge is cool, but as nate mentioned I'm not sure how to convey that to the player (I tried coming up with a good visual cue or the like, but I'm drawing a blank, sadly).

-His moves make good use of clones between different coverage, lingering duration, and the weaker nature of such attacks giving them different utility (clone dsmash leaving foes prone for example)

-I love the interactions between moves such as clone + box and shuriken + juggle. The set does an excellent job of describing how moves can plat into each other with the aid of your clone.

-It's interesting to me how the context of Dimentio's differing stats and other inputs (and of course his clone) makes the handful of moves he's cloned off of Luigi function differently for him. It's something I'd like to see done more often.

-Solid fundamentals as always, paired with some lovely animation ideas. Up throw is a favorite for perfectly fitting a KO throw.

-Love all of the similes in the set. BAir describing the difficulty in landing it 'like a skydiver without a parachute' made me giggle.

-I'm sure having Dimentio in the same hypothetical story mode as a tall, anxious green person with a blue collar job and a mind controlling device on them isn't any cause for concern, especially not one with parallels to Luigi.


Hector Salamanca by Slavic

-Fun little joke concept with a neat couple of mechanics.

-Ideas for sets involving limited normal movement have been made and proposed before, but this mechanic does have an interesting approach to the concept and the Neutral Special self-destruct is fascinating in its own right.

I'd recommend noting that staling the bell lowers hitlag so he can't infinite foes into a self-destruct once he has a stock lead.


Galarian Farfetch'd by T TortoiseNotTurtle

-Love the presentation of this; I've always used Firefox, so when I turned on the Google Chrome mobile app I was surprised to see all this animate. It makes for an easy reading experience.

-Right off the cuff I love the duelist playstyle to properly convey the samurai inspiration through mechanics, making for a unique playstyle feel.

-Jump Heights aren't showing, but it might be my mobile browser.

-The Specials all convey the main gameplan beautifully, from the risky crumpling hit of Neutral Special simulating the single stroke clash of anime samurai (leaving Farfetch'd to finish the job after) at the cost of being a huge commitment, to Side Special's self-debuff after use, but my favorite is Down Special mixing Swagger and Substitute for a positively punishing counter.

-Dash Attack's retreating slash to prod opponents into making a mistake, and () keep the core concept going through the set, though options like Up Special's options and Side Special's armor to mix up recovery, Jab providing a simple safety tool, FTilt controlling space etc prevent it from being so exaggerated as to be suffocating. The set has a nice balance of moves to prod and provoke foes and moves to keep them corralled.

-FThrow a little gimmicky even if the special effect is neat. Back and depending in foes' weight DThrow deal a lot of damage. Aerials bring it back in.


Jon Arbuckle by BrazilianGuy

-Making a whole narrative framing device for the set was a fun approach, feels like the theme got everyone to try and be a little silly with it. Complete with some endings to boot! ...I mean, they exist, so I'm mentioning them.

-Jon is unquestionably a joke character, with some deliberate rng to hamper and help, a down special that sounds highly impressive but crumbles after blocking just one move (or more impressively three projectiles), very precise if spammable hitboxes... but his tools do work together in some regard to help with that, Side Special positioning opponents precisely for a prohectile, Neutral Special giving him one of a few good one-use attacks or a quick top-off (or the one in a hundred surprise ko), forward and (sort of) down tilt being repeatable to keep poking foes back to arm's length and rack damage, etc. He even has some nice impractical but strong hitboxes like Up Tilt's back hitbox or (less extreme) Back Aerials's second hit.

-That said the numbers and effects get a little too silly for a functional joke character- doubling Jon's speed for 2 seconds by using FAir and then Jab is hilarious and the reuse of coffee as a prop could help the hypothetical player make the connection as to why Jon is suddenly outpacing Captain Falcon, but that, Down Special, and his varied projectiles means he could be a very obnoxious camper. It does admittedly combine with his NSpec, DSpec, and NAir's flip-flopping attack options to make him a set-up based fighter who can prep certain options to make himself more formidable in a fascinating way, though!

-Down Tilt repeats lines 4 and 5. There's a couple instances of missing data with X placeholders, Up Aerial frame data coming to mind, but it's understandable given the jamcon time limit and the effort put into presentation.


Skibidi Toilet by Kholdstare

-Last jamcon set, let's go. The intended playstyle is surprisingly straightforward for the character choice, just gum up the stage with harmful things and then exercise your strong neutral tools.

-Stats and mechanic look good, though I was worried that the smokescreens might allow spamming Neutral Special to just handicap the opponent almost out of the gate. Thankfully the smokescreens are limited in how they are made beyond a few smaller incidental ones gained by just using a given attack, and your opponent generally won't lose track enough that NSpec becomes free.

In fact, the smokescreens see some good use in Forward Smash to create an added purpose to the move that makes contesting the otherwise slow and punishable input a little trickier, and Up Smash adds to that fun. The varied nasty little surprises that can be abused from the smokescreen bring to mind why it was as common as it was in days of MYM olde.

-Neutral Special could stand to give us an idea on how long it take to transform the opponent or if the effect can wear off. I assume not, which is unfortunate given he can conceivably hide in smokescreens while spamming the move, then get foes at stage 2 to hamstring their attacks and let damage pile on quickly. It doesn't seem to be too easy, just a balance concern for this totally serious set.

-Ignoring the 'humor' of the series, most of the jokes in the set proper didn't land for me, but I did get a laugh from Side Special noting the parasite and most opponents have comparable self-preservation skills.

-Getting to more meaty specials, Down Special's a delightful concept, adapting their, well, adaptive abilities and the many weird variants of the creature flavorfully and giving them a pretty unique counter of the deal, while Up Special honestly sounds like a ton of fun to use.

-The standards are a good mix of fundamentals and despite the oddity of the character choice are built with practicality in mind; given the character's generally crazy moveset, it's good to see. Aerials get a little nuttier, but the underlying mechanics are simple enough to grasp and give the character a surprisingly effective air presence. The throws are a bit light, with an oddball interaction on back throw but otherwise nothing offensive- just very much a "oh crap the deadline" final section.

Overall, less crazy than I was expecting, and that certainly is a set for Skibidi Toilet.


My nomination goes to Dimentio by Arctic Tern. Nicely done!

 

[Arctic Tern]

Jamcon 2's voting period has ended! And with a total of 3.5 votes, "Alien" Alanbee claims victory!

 

[Arctic Tern]

"Please, drop your restraints. Protect the life I loved. You have the strength. My scanners sensed it. Just let it go."

(Joint with FrozenRoy)​

 

[FrozenRoy]

Glad to finally be on the board this contest even if Tern did most of the work lol, and to have my open joint project do anything!

 

[n88]

Fuhrer King Bradley by Slavic
This is a pretty grounded and pragmatic style of moveset, which surprised me a little bit. Not that you never put this kind of thing out but I think it's been a while. Glad to finally know what this guy's deal is anyway. I definitely think of him as a classic MYM character but one I knew absolutely nothing about (just "that guy that I associate with Smady") and now know absolutely something about.

The kit's biggest mechanical extravagances are in the funky counters (do love me a funky counter) but they're not ultimately that out there. I like that the Smashes play around with exactly where to place his counter frames, it's a fun way to differentiate them despite all sharing the mini-mechanic. The endlag-based-scaling on Brad's DSpec counter is also a novel touch though I do think his payout on landing the counter sounds a bit wimpy in a kit that has a lot of strong options. Kinda feels like he might be a little pushed overall - strong blend of range, speed, and power. Even if his aerials aren't comboing due to the rage mechanics he's still often chucking around a lot of hitbox pretty quickly.

There's a really strong animation/style sense here - stuff like SSpec and USpec could I think pretty easily feel unremarkable in other hands but they stick out as sounding really cool in this moveset. The grab is also kinda wild and striking.

I don't necessarily have a ton to say about this one - he has a few cool little tricks and he reminds me how much an actual Smash Bros game should have someone dual-wielding swords (characters that don't count: Rex, Pit, Dark Pit). Good stuff.

Android 16 by FrozenRoy and Arctic Tern
I'm trusting y'all on the character work because I know jack about this guy, but getting introduced to Android 16 as a nature lover and then his first input being a move called "Last Resort" that pays off big time when he lands it immediately and transforms the stage into a hellscape feels like something I would have read in Old MYM.

Not sure exactly how old the Froy bits of this moveset are but I assume from the general style and the Event Matches they're not shiny and new. (Open Joints thread says maybe MYM20?) In general the set-up with the pits and the hard interaction stuff has an Old MYM feel to it as well. It's a little hokey but that's not all bad. Kinda makes me nostalgic for the old-timey Ginyu Force stuff. Not all of that is just because some of the Froy parts of the set are older, Tern is leaning in with stuff like FTilt's grounded knockback keeping people on the ground.

The set finds a lot of funny messed-up stuff for him to do. The plays sound fun but I'm not sure the balance is always all there, for what that's worth. Up Smash feels kinda gonzo. I suspect USpec has war crime-y frame data to make some of the combos/chases work. Maybe most significantly I think the hellscape buffs are by and large unnecessary/overtuned. The one-way irreversible changes do give the move this crazy huge sense of impact, but... as slow as it is to start up, it doesn't seem like that big of a mistake to me to get tagged by a command grab with 30 frames of activity. Your Doriyahs and Ike FSmashes do connect here and there. Absolutely fair for the opponent to get deleted but I'm a little iffy on the idea that they get ongoing punishment.

(Some of the interactions/buffs are interesting, mind you! Like I think the Up Smash hitbox is an interesting twiddle and it did get my gears turning, but that move already felt pretty darn strong to me)

Android 16 does feel a bit disjointed at times, which I think is a bigger issue than the balancing (numbers! Whatever). He's got that secondary explosion if his NSpec times out, and the "time bomb" factor really doesn't see play at all. USpec drops that he can attack during it (which is huge) and then moves on pretty quickly. No other move in his kit cares about his 3.3k 6-gif FSmash. Some of this is maybe not super surprising given the "one guy starts and another guy finishes don't-tell-me-how-many-years later" development cycle, but there were some missed opportunities here to fold early ideas back into the set later.

I'd also dare to say some inputs could have tightened up the wordcount. The set isn't doing anything egregious here but sometimes the fundamental tech chasey stuff feels like it could be covered with a nod and a wink where the set opts for exhaustive breakdown. I dunno, I don't want to ding him for that, it's something I also need to improve on. This is something I want to bring up in commentary because I think broadly it's something the community would benefit from working on but it's not really make or break on any one set. I dunno, maybe I should do an article on it or something so it's not weighing down a comment (wordiness isn't particularly coloring my take on Android 16 so don't worry about needing to chop him down).

I do at the end of the day really like this type of character though. Feels like he's got a lot of Ganondorf DNA (unsurprising). NSpec is a really satisfying centerpiece and I'm always up for a weird take on Flame Choke. I talked about the ground chunkiness and pseudo-terraforming feeling a little retro but I think Tern's implementation of it here does get away with it. It's all pretty easy to buy and fits neatly into the moveset's big over-the-top anime action sensibility. The set's normal where it really needs to be normal but has the odd sensational input.

Not my favorite Tern set of the contest (and hopefully not my favorite Froy set of the contest) but I'm glad he got finished! Cool to see something come out of ye olde Open Joints thread.

 

[Rychu]

 

[Arctic Tern]

FRANZISKA VON KARMA (Rychu)

Franziska, much like her dear father, is a prosecutor focused on gathering evidence to prove her opponents guilty of murder. She goes about it in a much different manner, though, instead getting a policeman to do the dirty investigating for her. Fran can use the evidence she gathers to either buff certain attacks or use as ammo for her NSpec, which gives a demonstration of her theories on how her opponent committed the crime that actually damages them based on what actions they made in the match. Much like Manfred before her, landing the maximum 5 evidence pieces gives her access to an immensely powerful guilty declaration, but this comes at the cost of giving her less ammo to use for her main attacks that benefit from evidence. My personal ideas for Fran also take inspiration from my own Manfred set (she does set out to be Manfred 2 at the start), and this is a nice way to lean into that while still being its own thing, especially as she wouldn’t actively create fake evidence like Manfred does.

Fran’s evidence based attacks are all very strong for her, but they also come with significant risk if she happens to miss them. Additionally, the more NSpec attacks she lands, the less uses she gets of her USpec, which gives her a potentially absurd recovery that helps alleviate her light weight. I very much like the choice this gives players of saving evidence for Fran’s normals or going for the guilty verdict at the cost of making her overall kill methods more predictable overtime, as well as feeling fairly fitting for how using evidence at the wrong time is very bad in Ace Attorney and Fran’s overall competitive streak. SSpec works fairly well as the obligatory Objection Special, both letting her land her NSpec attacks and giving her a bit of the oppressive status that Ace Attorney prosecutors have with how fast it starts up and how safe it is overall. I also particularly like the way Fran’s tracker was implemented, making it so that officers will shield and baiting the foe into going for a grab to help add a piece of evidence to her pool.

The normals are about what you’d expect from Fran, with lots of whip strikes and basic gestures that through lawyer powers deal damage. These are more straightforward than the evidence moves, but I don’t actually dislike any of the moves, and there’s some fun ones there as well like a BThrow that has cops take the opponent away for spacing and a BAir where she does her dad’s snap as a sweetspot attack. Their use cases also add to Fran’s character, with her desk slam DTilt being mainly a last-ditch option to use in the situations where she would slam her fists in canon and her FThrow being her kill throw, making it so a character who specializes in cornering foolish defense attorneys is great when she has the foe cornered at the ledge. Nevertheless (and please don’t whip me for this Franziska), this set is not perfect; it doesn’t seem aware of a lot of its options (NSpec has good conditioning potential since the foe knows what attack will come out), and is a bit lacking in important details (the RNG behind gathering evidence, a Z-air since she has a tether grab, DSmash can pitfall but the strength isn’t stated, which is important since she can “reduce” the endlag). Additionally, while I like Fran’s ability to use her whip to make investigations faster, using FSmash to give her evidence a proper order is a bit finicky for the input - such a move would be better suited for a Shield Special.

Despite it all, though, Franziska still has a heap of character in it, and while I admittedly may be biased since it’s taking one of my sets as inspiration the mechanics coupled with the actual moves give me an overall positive impression. It would be foolishly foolish to pass up on her because of her shorter length, and if you do you shall almost certainly be whipped.

POP THORN (Salty)

Pop Thorn is a fairly ambitious set for a relative newcomer, being somewhat of a stance switch set where using NSpec changes the character’s stats and size by having him puff up. The overall kit doesn’t change much, but there are some differences in his moves, with SSpec changing from a homing missile launcher to a spammable projectile. My favorite Special of Pop Thorn’s is DSpec, which spawns a bomb that his windboxes can actively manipulate, which is a very MYM concept I’m sure. The other moves are fairly basic, but there’s generally nothing actively wrong with them and I do like the DAir stall-then-fall.

Nevertheless, I do have issues with the set, starting with the fact that the stance change doesn’t really amount to much. Most of the moves that change have the same general purpose, meaning that there isn’t that much of a difference in Pop Thorn’s stances - I understand this is probably accurate to how it works in-game, but I still would have liked some differences. Additionally, the ability to spawn 6 homing projectiles at once is crazy, especially when it can be done in just 10 frames (though I assume this is an error). Finally, there are a lot of moves that are just a weaker version of Pop Thorn’s Specials, like his popped DAir being just his aerial DSpec but not a trap, which overall reduces both the Specials’ and the standard attack’s roles in the set. I do appreciate the dabbling into trickier playstyles like the stance character, but there are enough issues that I can’t appreciate it as much as I otherwise would.

Link to comment archive here!

 

[SaltySuicune]

(Click on the picture to see the moveset)



Puffing along.​

 

[Daehypeels]

Android 16 - by Froy and Tern

Spoiler: Opening

-Double-dipping a bit on Arctic Tern, but haven’t commented on a Froy joint since Nino and this seems a great time to hop back in. I’m an on-and-off Dragon Ball fan, mostly fond of Android 16 for his DBZA and DBFZ appearances, but have some solid background on him already which is a nice plus going in.

-Colour choices for background & text feel fittingly no-nonsense~ Do your joint sets frequently have alternate-coloured text per writer? We did that for Anna but hazy memory’s telling me that it wasn’t a set-in-stone standard.

-1.25 BIGGER than Ganondorf, all three axes, not just wider? Making him substantially bigger than iirc the tallest character in the game is one thing, although I’m a bit irked by how casually it’s brought up and moved on, nothing about the remaining stats imply it’s out of the ordinary.
Most of it is personal taste and wanting to hear some discussion, so it’s not fair to ask you delve into everything. But if he IS taller, then objectively speaking, you’re entering territory where 16’s head and shoulders are prominently above Battlefield’s platforms when standing on the main stage, and that alone is worth discussing how that affects him and his opponents. And if that’s not the case, “bigger” wasn’t the right word imo.

-The other stats sound comfy, though!
Love the floatier jump physics and sharper fastfall, official Ult doesn’t experiment enough with those values and there’s loads of potential available when movesetters do. Great functionally while also being a clever nod to flying in the source -> naturally having great air control.
Missed opportunity to double down on it and mention his air acceleration, how quickly can he reverse his sideways momentum midair? Adding another Jigglypuff/Yoshi/Fat Angry Jigglypuff kind of character to the mix would be fitting, but could alternatively have his air acceleration still be solid, as compensation for his falling speeds being more flexible.

-Half worried that he’s going to have some silly airborne shenanigans if you think the airdodge penalty is worth it (and immediately interested in hearing about them ASAP), half excited.

Spoiler: Neutral Special

-oh we’re IMMEDIATELY doing Last Resort, I see

-Side tangent - for most moves, the way I comment on them is alongside reading the blog for the first time, I’ll read through each paragraph and stop in-between ones when I have something to say. This can lead to writing something that I immediately redact and reconsider, but IMO that’s part of the process, the author(s) gave me information in a deliberate order, as far as I’m concerned that’s a valid way to structure thoughts while reading through them. If they make me consider/believe one thing, only to subvert and counter it shortly afterward, that’s the moveset working as intended.
Wanted to mention this as it’s the way I’m prooooobably going to parse the remainder of 16, but Last Resort is a rare exception. It’s the kind of move where initial impressions are far too polarized, and having the full picture is worth breaking the formula.
Edit: I did not, however, read ahead to check other moves. Which makes one of my paragraphs a little excessive.

-For positives, this sounds like a blast in casual matches and hectic FFAs. The ticking time bomb aspect adds a harsh tension to the match that could create some delightfully hype moments, and I like the potential of the “failure” consequence still being weaponizable as a consolation prize & giving the move an alternate use. Being able to prime the bomb at a moment’s notice is awesome, there’s no reason to make that part committal.
Deleting characters who are caught by the clap even if they bounce off a wall is funny~ although at that point, it’s a bit subjective whether it’d be more appealing to have the clapped victim explode on the spot with Gevo or fly away at Mach 16.

-Unfortunately, it’s hard to stay positive.
I feel this move treads too far into extreme territory, to the point its design is painfully restricted. Because it instant kills, you deemed it necessary to give it horrific downsides, which defeat the purpose entirely.
For SUCCESSFULLY LANDING a move in the same echelon as a heavyweight F-Smash or one of the iconic power moves, you’re dealing 100% damage to yourself. In the absolute best case scenario, your reward for taking this risk isn’t far off from playing normally, taking the first stock, but receiving your fair share of damage in the process.
The price you must pay for this reward includes the classic problems of bad range, bad startup, egregious endlag, no setups, purely for outplaying the opponent… on a surface level. In addition, it is not available at all times, you must prime it for a temporary period, 15 seconds at most. That is not only the sole window you have to even attempt this move, but it is also an active bet made by the player that it will succeed. For if the gods are left unsatiated, if you are unable to claim the prize you so ambitiously strove for, you will take a ridiculous 50% self damage, and similar if not even worse recoil than if you had attempted it. This is irrespective of your current state, there are no take-backsies, you will suffer for your hubris and you will suffer immeasurably.
Your faulty gamble at least comes with a little piece of pity pie, as the detonation deals 20% to nearby opponents and kills around 130%. If it works, the 50-damage swing will merely be a 30-damage swing, and they will be unable to punish you, either returning to neutral or maybe dying at higher%s.
Compare this to Falcon Punch, which comes out slower and has an unclear comparison of endlag (but likely isn’t much different, regardless of being longer or shorter), doesn’t instantly kill, doesn’t have a complimentary pity explosion, and isn’t a grab. But in exchange, Falcon Punch is usable whenever you please, has no repercussions when whiffed unless used stupidly offstage or if the opponent meaningfully capitalized on it, and despite not killing at 0%, is far bigger is easily strong enough to kill in nearly any realistic scenario you’d need it to.
Last Resort’s greatest strength is that it’s in the faster category of big moves, instead hanging with the thicker F-Smashes, leading to more legitimate opportunities to landing it without an omega read. And the command grab aspect certainly helps, surpassing a shieldbreak in sheer lethality as even parries won’t save the target. But every remaining stat shoots 16 in the foot so thoroughly and counterintuitively, the move is left in a state that is difficult to salvage.

-The activation telegraphing the next 15 seconds, and the massive consequences for failing (and even for succeeding) hinders the type of conditioning and panic-exploitation that makes these moves occasionally work.
Falcon Punch works best when you scare the opponent into dodging or otherwise committing to a punishable option to flee something else, such as when they think they’re about to die from a powerful aerial or Smash Attack, or they take an exploitable route while recovering. However, without the threat of visiting the respawn platform in other ways, why would people be scared enough to commit? And obviously, if you overuse Falcon Punch, they’re not going to leave themselves as vulnerable to it - you’ll have to work on conditioning them to fear your other moves again.
I think the fact that it insta-kills ironically undermines the move in a similar vein, because it’s balanced around the value of obliterating somebody as low as 0%, and therefore the most meaningful to go for it would be on the healthiest opponents possible. People are far less incentivized to take the committal escape options when the risk of ignoring them isn’t lethal, and are further incentivized to avoid them when taking them might kill them on the spot.
You can use this at higher%s to increase your overall kit’s threat level, and have a higher chance of the auto-detonation killing them as a last resort (hehe), but it’s all downhill as their damage climbs. At mid%s, you’re losing significant value on the insta-kill over the other beeg moves, and the final detonation is unlikely to kill in most scenarios. Aren’t you a heavyweight, why not just use F-Smash or D-Air or something if you want to kill them around this time? Let alone at high%s, it’s a wastefully lopsided risk for a reward you’ll achieve by using a few moves normally, and while the auto-det is as viable as can be, it’s still not ranking high on the move tier list.
Amusingly, didn’t you say 16 struggles to combo at the beginning? Assuming that stays true, there’s decent odds he falls into the same heavyweight pitfall as the others - higher damage doesn’t mean much if your only combos are two-taps that do 20-30% at most, when someone like Mario has much faster and reliable moves that’ll rack up 40-50+ at lower thresholds. Likewise, again compare someone like Falcon, who MIGHT Falcon Punch an airdodge every now and then, but will much more likely continue his aerial strings into guaranteed (or at least threatened) F-Airs or D-Airs.
Even further, because he takes 50% at minimum for failing the time limit, 16 is forced to take action. At least with other moves, another part of their surprise factor is that they can come at any time, and they’re rarely used otherwise. Against other moves, it’s not reasonable to keep your guard up at all times and play around the random Bowser F-Smash unless you should logically (or emotionally/gut-feeling) expect it. You also have other things to worry about in stressful scenarios like a potentially-deadly combo, close-quarters disadvantage against a heavy, or a do-or-die recovery, which is where your guard slips in other ways.
This isn’t a super state that 16 COULD capitalize on but always has the choice to fake it. 16 willingly enters this state and takes this risk, and for 15 seconds, all you have to do is not get hit by one move. It’s not great to get hit by the other moves, but trust me, it’s okay to get hit by a couple tilts or aerials, as long as you don’t die or lose the next few engagements, anything you take will usually pale in comparison to the automatic recoil he’ll take.
There’s a huge difference between being ready for the random Dedede F-Smash, VS being ready for 16 politely asking you to play carefully for the next 15 seconds. Heck, it’s not as helpful to his other moves in exchange, as you always know when instant death is on the table, you’re always reminded. You might forget you could get Falcon Punched. You’ll never, ever forget you could get Last Resorted.

-Not fond of the counterplay being overly binary and one-dimensional in nature, particularly for the automatic detonation when time runs out. There’s no way for either player to alter it other than 16 landing the clap, and you don’t give any scenarios where the auto-det could be cancelled or negated. Which is fine on paper, the explosion is large but even slow characters can find ways to dodge it with good timing on dodging or knocking 16 away with good timing - offhandedly, would be helpful if there was a clear indicator the timer’s about to run out, doesn’t NEED to be a UI meter but some faster blinking or more intense glow at the very least would be good.
My main question is whether the explosion interrupts 16’s current state, and if so, whether that includes hitstun or other forms of non-actionability. If it paused the timer until the hitstun wore off, I’d have no issue, an opportunistic player could hit him mere frames before the explosion (or do an extended combo beforehand, to make that window easier for them) but place the explosion a safe distance away from them. If it doesn’t, then it could create some boring cases where you’re forced to disengage even if you successfully hit him and maybe even combo him, or are disincentivized from using high hitstop/lengthy multi-hits since you’re keeping him close.
I’d like that there’s potentially a little bit of risk-reward with throws if the detonation doesn’t interrupt them, a ballsy player could time a throw so they’re invincible as the detonation goes off, but they’d have to go for a grab during the critical last seconds, if not shorter based on his % and the player’s mash speed. But that goes unmentioned, and it’s a very risky/predictable gambit compared to spacing him out in safer manners, or instead throwing/hitting him a bit earlier, so he can’t reach you again in time. Other than that, the first 10-12 seconds don’t really matter for the opponent as long as they don’t put yourself in heavy disadvantage or get hit by the clap, and all of the onus is put on GTFOing or preparing a dodge in the last moments. And for many characters, the smartest thing is to just not engage, which isn’t hard for them.
With the comeback mechanics we already have, at least they typically have a way to hit the opponent around and do something about it, you can forcibly deactivate K.O. Uppercut, Limit uselessly vanishes if it’s not used, you can knock Arcene or Rage Drive out of Joker/Kazuya, you get the idea. I get the thematic “I will explode in 15 seconds and there’s nothing you can do about it” unstoppable vibe behind it, but idk if it’s a healthy decision in the long term.

-Addendum to the above, once there’s ~2 seconds left, what’s stopping most opponents from just jumping and Up B-ing into the sky? Unless you gave 16 the DBFZ Super Dash as an Up B or something similarly low-commitment, it’s likely a huge commitment for him to chase them up there and stay within range of his explosion, particularly nimble characters would require a hard read on which direction they’re going in (if he can even keep up with them).
Game & Watch and Inkling both have high and fast Up Bs (G&W is particularly mean), R.O.B. and Snake can stall for a while, the Kirby/Kid Icarus/Animal Crossing characters can leave quite easily, good luck catching Olimar if he ditches his Pikmin, Bayo and Sora are self-explanatory, Wario and Bowser Jr.’s vehicles give extra jumps and add stall, Wolf can mix between a sudden Side B or a traditional Up B, good luck catching a high% Lucario, Paisy need platforms for great height but hella stall with Float and Parasol, Rosa/Yoshi/Jigglypuff abuse their floatiness, a high% BotW Link can simply adios out of there, and others could be argued for.
Remember, helpless fall after an Up B does not matter if 16’s guaranteed to blow up and put himself in heavy endlag, worst case scenario it’s not like failing to punish him is a painful lost opportunity, he’s taking 50% recoil and he’d be lucky to merely reset to neutral. And I’m not saying 16 CAN’T reach the listed characters, but what I’m saying is there’s many ways to take something that’s normally evenly-handled for both sides and put 16 into a massively disadvantageous position for little to no risk. On the rare occasion, I have no doubt a good 16 can read an opponent and delete them. But how many times will the inverse happen, how much easier is it for the opponent?
To a slightly lesser degree, characters with decent recoveries can throw themselves offstage - it’s far riskier since getting nicked by the explosion is much likelier to kill, but in exchange it’s ALSO vastly riskier for 16. Either he can’t go too far ‘lest he burn too many resources to get back, or he can risk the endlag killing him outright like a diet Rest. At a certain point, it’s not worth it, and he’ll just take the 50% fruitlessly.

-Speaking of recovery, there’s nothing telling me you don’t just straight-up die if you’re forced to recover as the auto-detonate activates. Even if you don’t plummet to certain doom, you take a massive altitude cut, and will need every resource you can get to recover. In plenty of cases, whether by your own helpless hand, or by the opponent putting you out of your misery.
Is this a necessary addition to the downside pile? As covered above, there isn’t an equal repercussion for the opponent, it’s simply extra misery.

-Despite seemingly being geared towards a casual setting, it feels unnecessarily hostile towards those in a way the Falcondorf Punches and other big moves aren’t. There’s arguably nothing fundamentally wrong with it being a lethal grab, the first-time knowledge checks are often funny memories people think back upon fondly, and the realization “oh, can’t shield that” usually sticks. But the rest of the design has some quirks.
It’s weird you two didn’t discuss how long the grab lasts for, not only how unusual it is for a grabbox to linger for a full half-second, but also the obvious gameplay implications that come with it; easiest example, it’s impossible for non-Bayo/Mythra characters to spotdodge it, and how possible it is to run/roll into it. Easily fixed point, but knowing Ultimate’s jank, unless the grabbox doesn’t overlap 16’s body too much, wouldn’t be surprised if there were some “WTF was that” clips where somebody rolled through 16 to escape behind him, but still got grabbed because their intangibility wore off while still clipping into him.
The duration can cause a second, even nastier knowledge check than the command grab aspect, as unless you make it clear how long the grab lasts (via exaggerated particle effects or having him glow prominently, perhaps?), it would be hard to tell when you could run in and punish. It’s not an issue for patient players or those who use lengthy disjoints, but imagine a close-range brawler who needs to get close for their finisher, perhaps Fox. It’s basic instinct in this game to see a high-endlag move, run up as soon as the attack is over, and start charging your Smash Attack of choice.
It’s fairly intuitive to see a grabbing motion and quickly learn shielding isn’t an option. But is it intuitive to have to wait a prolonged, arbitrary amount of time before it’s safe to approach? Is that a fair and funny lesson to learn, that you tried to run in just a smidge too early and got clipped on the last couple of frames this lingered, guess you’ll die now? Without your text justifying it, I question why it lingers for so long. Yes, this isn’t something knowledgeable players will be punished by, but is it worth punishing the unaware for not looking this information up?

-This could be annoying to fight in late-game team battles, where you can reliably set up a Smart Bomb-sized explosion that basically deletes anyone trying to recover. You sacrifice your teammate’s stock and take 100% yourself, but in situations like knocking the opponent offstage, you can make it nigh-impossible for them to avoid a GIGANTIC hitbox that will often secure their death, outside of extremely clever resource management or particularly generous recoveries (in which case, don’t go after those, go for the smart plays).
Again not a large issue, but I specified late-game because it could damage the classic tension of a 2v1 where the opponent might just clutch it out with some clever thinking and recovery.
A greater issue might be that a team battle is far, far easier to set up into a Frame 30 move, primarily because it lingers so long. There’s comboing into a Frame 53 Falcon Punch (where it’s so slow and tightly-timed that it’s impressive no matter how you look at it), or holding someone at high%s in place for a similar finishing blow (where at that point, if it’s taking that much mashing to escape, a simple charged Smash Attack would do the trick) - and then there’s a simple back-and-forth team combo that uses multi-hits to burn time, a lengthy Rapid Jab holding them in place, or other tricks. Thankfully though, Last Resort being a command grab is a bane in disguise; otherwise elementary low% throw combos would fail due to the 60-frame mercy window.
Not that it’s easy, but I feel once you get good enough at the game and have a sufficiently synergetic partner, the challenge of pulling this off might become lower than you’d prefer.

-The size has implications in FFAs, although I’m not negative towards that. You don’t specify anything like the explosion’s duration or how long it takes to reach max size, and while the timer is still telegraphed, it’s easier to get distracted or occupied by other things, and harder to keep the sheer danger radius in mind; there’s also implied lack of a sourspot, meaning if somebody gets snagged (I believe each player added to the fray is an exponentially higher increase of success, loosely speaking), all hell will break loose.
I’d love to see how it’d affect the iconic shieldbreak scramble that occurs when one unlucky player grabs everyone’s attention, how 16 can jump in without caring who he grabs, and other players have to make the snap decision whether to commit to their strongest finisher or bail like cowards. The diplomacy would be hilarious, imagine a full group of adults agreeing to a sacrificial ritual for the birds.
Admittedly, I’ve barely played Ultimate with more than 4 players since Joker came out, mostly sticking to online, tournament settings, or smaller hangouts with friends. So I’m not sure how much Hero’s Kamikaze impacts a large FFA, but I assume it’s hard to be upset about it in such a chaotic environment, and Last Resort is far less random/sudden.
This move has many questionable details to discuss in serious gameplay, buuuuuut in FFA matches, this feels far comfier and genuinely funny.

-The uses for this move while edgeguarding are worth considering, the immense risk would discourage it in most cases (especially since it’d be competing against simply smacking them with an aerial), though I worry it might cause some unpleasant checkmate scenarios against vulnerable recoveries. A flawed comparison, but speaking as a Dedede main, there are many reliable ways to land a Frame 26 ground attack that lasts for “just” 16 frames - where Last Resort (assumedly) wouldn’t have the low hitbox, it’d make up for it with airborne capabilities and lingering for almost twice as long.
Side note, you don’t mention how this affects his air momentum at all. That’s not an issue for the other big moves, but this one lunges him forward and presumably halts his fall momentarily, was wondering how quickly he’d start falling, whether he accelerates to his regular fall or fastfall speeds… bonus points whether his acceleration matches his gravity or is altered in any way, that’s not necessary but it’d be helpful and show some thoughtfulness.
A good reason to ask would be how useful it’d be for covering the ledge (and/or surrounding relevant “the opponent will probably have to recover through here” space), as the initial timer activation is non-committal enough that you could knock somebody offstage, and judge whether they were knocked far enough away for you to set up. If 16 doesn’t fall too fast, he could hop offstage and do it in front of the ledge, covering that critical area for a bit - if he falls too fast, imagine a lingering stall-’n-fall with a sweetspot of death, but the entire duration is the sweetspot. There’s a large goldilocks zone in between though, which I assume he meets.
I don’t deem this a prominent issue, as outside of last-stock situations where the recoil doesn’t matter, it’s overkill that hinders yourself even if it works. That, and the easier it is to line up this gambit, the more likely it is they were already dead, or were already easy to gimp in other ways. This concern is mostly nitpicking, as most characters would have ways to dissuade 16, but I dislike dumping on characters with bad recoveries any harder than we need to.

-The mentioned mechanic of certain moves having gameplay implications on the post-explosion stage doesn’t give me good impressions.
Will have to read them to judge how impactful they are, but ironically for a moveset, I hope they’re not much more than small cosmetic changes. Personally, if you have a move as polarized and hard-to-use as this, and put a bunch of fun bonuses for landing it afterwards, it feels like a wasted opportunity: imagine Hero has some secret spells that add even more diversity to his spell list, but you only gain access to them for the rest of the match if you hit somebody with his full-charge Side B or something. That might be cool in casual matches, the novelty would be appreciated on some level… but if they’re impactful, why lock unique, cool mechanics behind something most players will rarely get to play with, let alone the comically exaggerated risk in going for it? On a character entirely designed around taking risks to unlock achievements and gain power, something like that would be part of the appeal, but if it’s tacked onto one extra-gimmicky part of a much-larger unrelated kit, it’s a far trickier argument. Could cause unnecessary frustration for newer players who just want to try the cool lava stage things in a match but keep screwing themselves over with Last Resort (not everyone has consenting friends), and experienced players have to concede that those extra aspects are unfeasible in 99% of balanced/meaningful matches.
I may be speaking way too far ahead. Not to mention the “glass half-full VS half-empty” subjectivity to it, where I may believe a mechanic is unnecessarily limited and niche, another may believe it’s an awesome bonus that’s special because of how rare it is.

-Also, while ignoring shields is an obviously massive upside, command grabs aren’t all sunshine and rainbows.
Another unspecified detail is whether it has armor/priority, which is a factor in two understated benefits of big moves: trades and clanks. If it has armor/priority, then it’s comparable to Alolan Whip, which ignores the classic shield/attack/grab triangle and is an effective tactic against non-disjointed attacks. If it doesn’t, then it gains a large susceptibility to simultaneous attacks, frequently losing outright.
Falcon Punch is usually binary, either it works and they anguish, or it doesn’t and you anguish. But in a synchronized clash, it’s got a winning ace tucked inside that glove; transcendent priority. Even if you hit it with a monster of a move, even if you send him flying, if that punch went off and is still active, odds are you’re taking the full brunt as a trade. No clanking, no interruptions. Unless you punished the startup, directly challenging it is suicide. While a rare scenario, it can happen, and the punch’s legendary power means Falcon often comes out on top.
Last Resort, unless there’s a safeguard left unmentioned, is the opposite, and will effectively lose to countless attacks in the game on same-frame interactions, with the bonus weakness of clanking with grabs as well. While the lengthy duration is still a great upside as mentioned before, and will beat mistimed approaches, a wise opponent with the correct move can still time their attack and slam right through a still-active grab.
This is absolutely a sidegrade, and even if it were a hitbox, these aren’t comparable concerns to some of the above. Yet it’s again another trait that Last Resort’s peers entirely ignore, another weakness to consider.
(sorry for the overexplanation, my habit of over-clarifying kicked in)

-An extra note to the above, I need to research it further and can’t confidently speak on the matter, but remember that the hurtboxes across a character’s body aren’t created equal, with certain areas (typically limbs) working as normal when attacked, yet ignoring universal grabs as if they were intangible.
The parts I’m uncertain about are whether they also work against command grabs, and whether they remain ungrabbable during attacks. If so, that’d mean not only could disjoints easily beat it, but melee brawlers wouldn’t be disadvantageous if their timing is good enough, which typically is in the hands of an experienced player.
Dedede is a hazy comparison, but speaking from experience, good players don’t struggle to ignore Inhale and just hit him through it, even as limb-based fighters like Joker or Falcon. Though I can’t tell for sure how much of that is the moves themselves and how much of that is this potential interaction.

-IMO I’d either put a version of this on a Taunt (could be funny if it was usable in the air, if that would be a dealbreaker for y’all otherwise) to free up Neutral Special but keep the fun casual volatility of it, or perhaps if you want to keep the secondary uses & powerup aspects of it, why not place more focus on it and turn it into a dedicated, more viable tactic? You can keep the funny nuke that goes brrrrr on a held input or something, but there’s lots you could do - maybe the ticking timer gives you a quicker grab that has far less reward but turns that part of the stage into dangerous territory (could be temporary or permanent), maybe it powers up the rest of his grabs/Specials (perhaps making them explosive, perhaps giving them the lava upgrade on success, perhaps giving them variations, etc.), maybe he can manually detonate the time-over effect… Apologies if this is armchair design and you’re happy with what you’ve made, I just feel this move is underbaked, but HAS potential.

-TL;DR, moves like Falcon Punch are already noob traps in the vast majority of situations, and at best are rare hype clips. Which is fine, but Last Resort doubles down and is one of the noob trappiest noob traps I’ve ever seen in my life, in exchange for not thaaaaaaaaaat much reward, relatively? These big moves already kill quite early, I think killing even earlier is just plain greedy.
Best way I can sum it up, it’s baffling to me that both of you played this move entirely straight. You acknowledge it’s slow and hard to land, and that it’s risky, but you give it the same gravitas as far better moves, despite its dysfunctionality in experienced play, potential unhealthy cheesiness scattered about, and reliance on party sizes. Perhaps it’s a commitment to the movesetting tone you wish to uphold, wanting to keep the reader positive and interested in the move, and if that’s the case, I can respect it.

Spoiler: Side, Up, Down Special

Side Special: Acting like you won’t get command grabbed

-Had a feeling this moveset would balance the obvious DBFZ-style interpretations with some unique takes, and an even stronger feeling Side B would lean hard into the former. The opening paragraph and gif sounds like a fun combination between his 236M and Level 3.

-20% and adaptive-reward knockback (seems to be horizontal, given the middle version threatens tech chases, although the vague “can combo into some quicker moves” gives the impression you’ll mention it in future moves) that’s constantly advantageous makes for a powerful move, with some fun flavour against multiple characters via the iconic overflowing lasers.
I’m confused by the holes mechanic, my assumption is that by using the move again, the old holes will also fire more lasers on success, presumably regardless of distance? Although the lack of clear explanation, and the mixture of “aesthetic” and “huge advantage” muddy my own understanding.
It’s on the slower side, but has good reach as expected, and the other upsides are plenty.

-Wonder when the tech chase aspect starts and stops working. It sounds like it’s not an option at the optimal threshold, so having enough advantage to hard read with Last Resort is still arguably far more overkill than it’s worth, especially since F-Smash can be used regardless of the timer with zero risk of dealing massive recoil, and giving similar-enough dopamine on success. This move would be helpful for landing the auto-detonate with lenient timing, but Neutral B remains a purely for-****s-and-giggles meme strategy.
Got me to think about how jablocks might interact with Last Resort though, assuming 16 is capable of them. I forgot how much advantage jablocks typically give, let alone whether it’d be enough to buffer a guaranteed Last Resort if successful. It’d be arguably a bit less excessive, and a hypothetical guarantee would make it at least slightly more considerable?

-A highly unexpected air system, I’ve never seen a move that’s repeatable but puts the user into helpless fall on the second use per airtime. Will have to sit on whether I like that or not, although side note, I’m wondering what happens if you use it twice and the second one hits an opponent, whether he’s still placed into helpless after or if something else happens. Could he use it thrice if so? What happens if he’s hit out of it, if he’s hit after the first does he keep both in store, if he’s hit after the second does he restore both?
The weak spike would be amusing offstage, while the onstage tech chases happening at 0% (you say it forces prone/tech, that sounds like an override to me) and low endlag makes me wonder how helpful they are.
The Hell’s Flash mindgame raises more questions, though - how quickly does Hell’s Flash come out, and likewise how much time does the opponent have to airdodge? You specify that an airdodge has to be timed to fully escape the blast and that an immediate airdodge will still get clipped, which means there’s not only a window of opportunity, it’s at least several frames wide. The obvious next thought would be whether some characters could use their counter, as there’s a few that’re certainly fast enough to match this window (Arcene is Frame 4, Revenge is Frame 3, K. Rool’s is Frame 5, among others), yet this is harmless trivia as the same mindgame works similarly enough.
The real question is instead whether fast Up Bs would be able to completely ignore the mindgame altogether and guarantee a hit on 16; Dolphin Slash hits decently high above Marcina’s starting point on Frame 6 and is nearly full height by Frame 7, and Mario’s Super Jump Punch reaches similar heights a frame or two later, for example. Alternatively, Charizard and Incineroar have armor on their Up Bs as early as Frame 4, which last long enough for a decent amount of height, and could give them a bit of time to jump beforehand for some extra height. There are others I’m probably missing, too.
This is avoidable depending on the timing between actionability and laser, although completely avoiding this would require turning this into an extremely tight couple of frames, in the same vein as an EWGF input.

-The above only applies if you snag somebody offstage or high off the ground, which you can completely avoid by doing the classic trick of jumping -> immediately using Side B, giving you ground coverage while letting you pick between the two versions, and the failsafe of forced tech scenarios makes it quite reliable.
I wonder how weak it is, how far they’d have to fly before the airdodge kicks in.


Down Special: oh right that one 213S/236S move only really good players used

-I remember this move sucked originally and casual players had no reason to use it, and then they gigabuffed it and it became the “do everything” button, it was stupidly advantageous on block, great for combos, hit people off the ground for extensions, silly move.
Oh hey, transcendent priority, funny to see that pop up.

-The lack of in-between charging is clever, was a little concerned you could Snake F-Smash-style charge it by the ledge for pretty easy 2-frames or other recovery denial, but keeping it to two binary/static timings works well.
Would like to hear more about using the laser at range, whether it’s dissuading people from staying around the holes (how reactable is the laser, do they have to treat the holes like they could suddenly be hit at a moment’s notice, or is it a gentler advantage?), how it might affect combos, how the two charges might affect ranged tech chases (and how being able to effectively tech chase from a far distance allows for far more tech chases in general, such as launching somebody onto a far-away platform normally being a return to neutral)... something more in-depth could be how 16 might play around his holes, whether it’d be worth it to play more stationary for easier/quicker access to premade holes - maybe how it encourages him to be more aggressive, planting holes not just in scary positions for the opponent but positions he doesn’t lose much by holding?
Standing by a hole means the laser can be fired quickly out the offensive one, not worrying about charges, after all.

-Can you halt yourself multiple times midair with this move?
It’s tricky picturing how far the laser reaches when used midair, “solid but not spectacular range” is up to interpretation.
Does the laser have travel time, particularly when fired into a hole? Seems like a neat and sudden poking tool, but wondering whether the point-blank speed translates to ranged speed.
I’m also wondering if you have to aim the laser specifically into the hole, since you mention a valid strategy is to stand over a hole and angle the laser as it comes out the other end - but wouldn’t that cause input overlap and create scenarios where you aim backwards to angle the laser back towards you, but in the process aim the laser behind you and miss the hole entirely? Maybe either the laser auto-targets the hole within a nebulous radius (but it’d be pretty close to the hole and presumably quite small, so it’d be easy to intuit “don’t use the move near the hole if you want the explosion”), or the laser takes a bit to fire out of the hole, so you can first aim into the hole and then have a decent window to re-aim the laser coming back out.

-Apologies if this is a personal thing, but this kind of move writeup is tough for me to get invested in, if the move itself isn’t loaded with details to chew on. My subjective distaste towards spreading the details thin across several paragraphs aside (though I can hardly complain about the preferred writing style of nearly an entire community, one they’ve used for decades no less), so much of this move is spent merely explaining how it works, with mere side-notes on how these traits would be applied in a match.
The ways this affects 16’s playstyle/gameplan are woefully underdiscussed, the most you say about ranged capabilities is roughly “because it’s fast and the holes allow for ranged strikes, Android 16 has impressive stage control, good for exploiting techs, failed techs, and such-and-such”, and that’s hardly boiling it down.
There’s no playstyle summary at the beginning of the blog, nor do I see any form of wrapup when I check the chapters or take a peek around that area. So where will the meaningful progression of these ideas take place, if not during the move’s description? Maybe you’ll bring them up later when it’s relevant to other moves and form a more palpable whole to savor, but at least to me, having hopes for better material later on is always an unpleasant substitute.

-Essentially, it’s a decent move concept, but it doesn’t feel like it transcends being a concept. It also feels impersonal, unattached to you two despite your authorship, like anyone could’ve come up with it and written it here. As-is, what’s the difference between you writing it VS anyone else writing it?


Up Special:

-funny clarification of Quick Attack’s singular dash, sometimes it’s worth rewriting the description to avoid it entirely, sometimes the correction is human enough to be worth leaving in

-oh, this definitely answers one of my questions for Last Resort
It’s probably healthier that you overkill-solved the “just leave” answer, although as nigh-impossible as it’d be, kinda wish some sort of middle ground could be found. As-is, either you give him so much space that he doesn’t bother chasing you (but in exchange you have far less time to punish his exploitability), or you’re forced to play his game of chicken the classic way.
The whole “dodge at the right time or stay solidly away from him as it reaches 15 seconds” scenario still feels overall unhealthy, but that’s a discussion for a past move.

-Are there any visual indicators for the dashes, stored/charging/recharged? UI elements showing how many he has banked, 16’s model flashing or some other sign when one’s replenished, etc. etc.

-The easiest concern to juggle is how the charge-up affects his momentum, whether he keeps falling as normal or stalls (either slower or outright halted vertical speed, let alone horizontal), and if so, whether each charge stalls him in the same way. Have him fall too fast and charging isn’t worth it, have him fall too slow and 16 can waste an entire 2.5 seconds on charging each Up B alone, let alone other airstalls like Down B / Side B, plus his naturally slowish fallspeed. Might be treading into R.O.B. territory, even if he has to recharge - it’s not a strat to use all the time, but might be obnoxious when it’s most needed.

-The order of information given is odd to me. First paragraph giving a rough description of speed, i.e. quick startup and respectably short endlag, as you say it’s good for combos but not unpunishable; second paragraph mentions you can cancel the move’s endlag into itself. A non-universal detail that means a lot, but given the cut to discussing purely that & the aforementioned informative speed description, gives the impression that’s the sole way to cancel the move. Does that make sense, or is my train of thought wonky?
The middle of the fourth/last paragraph brings up the capability to cancel into attacks, not long before you wrap up and move on entirely. None of the above discussion incorporates it despite being a radical change, and the stats given beforehand don’t contradict the idea that it works well in combos even if you wait out the endlag - I believe it’d be much better mentioned at the same time as the self-cancel.
Side note, wonder how early you can do so, given how you can only perform another Up B once the endlag kicks in, but attack canceling lacks specification and therefore could probably be done nigh-instantly.
Again a thoroughly personal thing, and y’all have been doing this forever so who am I to judge, but I often feel borderline punished for taking the information I have and mulling over it / imagining it in the game proper. This kind of trickling information leads to either reading the move one step at a time and always staying ready to flip my understanding of it on a dime, or having to pause thinking about it and assess the entire move in bulk to avoid that.

-A tricky move to imagine, given its exaggerated nature - there’s nothing quite like it, as the closest comparison is R.O.B.’s Up B, yet the details differ too much for a clean side-by-side. This move’s strengths are unprecedented, officially.
16’s being a sudden omnidirectional dash, instantly cancelable into an attack no less, provides truly wild and unpredictable opportunities for him. A single advantage of this, for example: one of Fox’s signature tricks is how far they cranked his gravity, letting him jump and quickly plummet back down for an offensive landing aerial, keeping opponents on their toes and giving him blistering rushdown potential… but he’s limited to the arcs of his jumps, which he only has a couple to choose from. 16 usually burns a resource to do so, but to compensate, he can skip reaching the peak of his jump and suddenly lunge at you in any direction; Quick Attack is more than enough distance for whatever he needs. The existence of Up B also makes his airborne horizontal momentum ambiguous, as the opponent isn’t safe even if he strafes backwards, so neutral becomes vastly more complicated.
Advantage and disadvantage would be disgusting, given how large his burst-range radius would be (example, catching directional airdodges would often be purely reaction-based, rather than relying on smart positioning via reads or intuition), and how slippery he’d be

-I don’t like 16 always having 1 stored regardless of charge time, despite feeling this move is polarized enough. The downside is significant enough to restrain 16, but at Up B’s worst he still has an average recovery at the very least (good airspeed, low fallspeed when he needs it, multiple airstalls, not just one but two-per-airtime dashing command grab Side Bs, and a single Quick Attack dash is a decent distance - he may not rule the sky and can be edgeguarded, but relative to the cast, he’s got a pretty good grip)... and these Up Bs are REALLY good on their own, at least R.O.B.’s is purely amazing for recovery and stalling, full-storage Hasty Assault is insane for every purpose in the book.
Letting him always have one for recovery isn’t a bad idea, but as-is, he has this move loaded every time he jumps off the ground. Go back to that Fox example, that’s maybe okay if he has to be smart about them, but couldn’t he just do that any time he pleases with minimal repercussions? I don’t think saving charges for your recovery is a worthier decision here. By the same token, I think a crappy airdodge is a meaningful downside as he has lackluster/slow intangibility, yet he always has an even bigger momentum shift than a directional airdodge on the table, with far less commitment (can literally attack out of it on a dime), omnidirectionally (compared to 8 cardinal directions only), and further-reaching in less time.
You also say they charge separately, with no indication that using the minimum 1 alters the charge time for the 2nd; could you use the 1st to your heart’s content, and every 5 seconds spent on the ground, you still get a second one loaded to play with in tandem?

-dumb side thought, but one of Last Resort’s advantages is that it’s on Neutral Special and easy to wavebounce, 16’s solid air movement and the lunging nature of it meaning he can fake going in one direction and then hop in with the funny clap delete button. Frame 30 and ignoring shields would help a lot.
Inadvertently, this move thoroughly conditions opponents into being used to 16 suddenly changing directions for a powerful hit mid-air, because this is an extremely powerful tool available to him at all times, and he’s gonna milk it for all its worth - while wavebouncing a killing command grab isn’t directly nerfed, that miniscule afterthought of an x-factor is completely drowned out by just playing against him normally, the counterplay is already there and the surprise factor is heavily downplayed. Let alone the ticking time bomb screaming “I’M PROBABLY GOING TO DO THIS REALLY COOL THING” at them, so you only have to worry he might do it during those 15 seconds.

-Can you cancel the move into non-Up B Specials, or just aerials? Feel like there’s probably a niche way you could start a combo, fling yourself in the opponent’s direction, and go through Last Resort’s startup, grabbing them by the time you reach them. Also, what happens if you use the move along the ground and cancel, do you start an aerial and instantly land?
How much momentum is preserved when cancelling Up B?

-sorry for the abrupt end, unsure what else to tack on without repeating myself

Spoiler: Smashes & Stuff

Forward Smash:

-14 frames to travel 2.5 units didn’t sound right, but officially, an averageish run speed takes ~7 frames to travel a unit, so that does check out.
Comes out a frame faster than Mega Man’s, and has a charge hold that’s over twice as brief as his, although the obviously reduced travel speed and distance bring it back down. Damage is pretty good, yet the knockback isn’t great.
Glancing ahead, doesn’t look like charging the move makes the fist fly any further. Funnily enough, I think this move is mostly worse off by being a projectile rather than a traditional hit, as while it becomes a bit safer (a shielding opponent enters hitstop while he doesn’t, giving him a few more frames to work with), it gains a notable travel speed for its recovery, is much worse in clanking/priority-based situations (he’ll always suffer his poor endlag while the opponent will likely act quicker), and gains a weakness to reflectors. The range is so stubby that it’s hardly using a projectile’s traditional upsides, anyways, and the angling capabilities are nothing special. Belmont’s comes out on Frame 24, and instantly covers that massive area in front of him, so 16’s is only faster at close range and quickly becomes outclassed if used more than a unit away.
Doesn’t make this a bad move though, far from it.

-What do you mean by “15 frame window of the endlag”? I was going to make a joke that it’s a projectile -> he’ll begin endlag the moment it’s fired, but even discounting that, the projectile only lasts for 14 frames. What kind of window, start/end of the endlag, inside or surrounding the endlag?

-Jumping bypasses the “oh no, is 16 going to punch again????” mixup assuming he fires, since you specify the second travels at the same angle as the first. I kinda like the idea of being able to re-angle the second punch, since the 45-degrees upward angle would be a nasty anti-air that could shut down jumps, and make it an actually meaningful mixup for both opponents. But as-is, just jump at him, he’s left wide open regardless.
The 45-degree shot is quite fun on its own though, that’s a rare angle for characters to cover, let alone with a chargeable F-Smash at that speed. And the blisteringly-fast charge release makes it so jumping over the first shot needs to be precise if you’re raw-reacting to his attack, going for the deadzone between upward and straight… puts power back into 16’s hand, at the cost of giving opponents time to just sit 3 units away from him and run-up U-Smashing his jaw into scrap metal.
While we’re here, does this move hit ledgehangs if spaced/angled right? It’s not great for that purpose, given how close you have to be to line it up. Probably makes you either vulnerable to getup attacks or allows for players to roll right behind him, Mario’s getup roll goes about 3.5 units from what I can tell. Wouldn’t be great for 2-frames given the fist doesn’t stay in one place for long, and you’d have to space it which lessens the advantageous charge release.
It’d be funny to guess a ledge jump and nail somebody with the upward angle.

-How far away can the opponent be from 16 and still get true-blockstring’d by both punches? And is it the kind of true blockstring that the opponent is forced to hold, or can they try to parry the second hit?
Going back to the projectile thing, there’s again a double-edged sword, amusingly. The lack of hitstop on 16 gives him more time to fire both punches while still keeping the opponent inactionable, but likewise, that hitstop could’ve been a precious buffer for reaction time, and might make the move healthier overall since 16 going for both punches ASAP would often be a read on his part.
Depends on when that second-punch window is, though…

-Okay, I get it, F-Smash does a buttload of shield damage (maybe too much, 2/3rds shield damage off of a Frame 18 move, although the above note about reaction time makes it a bit reasonable), you haven’t discussed 16’s shieldbreak capabilities.
I don’t know why you feel the need to not only discuss something you should’ve brought up back in Neutral Special (as the only relevance to F-Smash is that it’s good for breaking shields, but once you get going F-Smash is entirely out of the spotlight), but also treat it with the gravitas of revealing a new detail to the reader. You spend the bulk of the paragraph just repeating the obvious and re-explaining Neutral Special (and backpedaling a ton because letting yourself take 100% after shieldbreaking the opponent is a dumb idea 4 times out of 5), whereas a reader likely already thought of this a while ago. All you need to do is say that 16’s F-Smash shieldbreaks a lot, and something like “we all know what happens when 16 gets that kind of chance” - gets the point across, is enjoyably ominous, lets the reader think for themselves, and saves everyone’s time, including yours.
If anything, your continued explanation just reminds the reader how bad Last Resort is, even in its optimal environment. Isn’t it ass-backwards that an opponent with multiple stocks would be LESS afraid of 16 if he got a shieldbreak on them between 0-30%, compared to other characters? It’s not like he has any other method of killing them earlier than that, and if they get shieldbroken at >=mid%s they’re dead like they are against any other opponents. Either they take whatever fully-charged attack he chooses and easily survive, or they die at 0% but 16 is kind enough to deal 100% to himself as an apology. Except on last-stock (a mere fraction of shieldbreaks, which aren’t frequent in the first place), I’d happily die at 0% if it means the opponent takes a massive loss for hardly more benefit than usual.
Ignoring high-level setups, there’s a few characters that instantly take your 0% stock off of a shieldbreak with absolutely zero downside, that’s never been a problem. Roy (full-charge Flare Blade), Bowser (the tip of Flame Breath doesn’t flinch/break stun, you have enough time to rack up some damage and full-charge F-Smash), Dedede (classic Gordo -> Up B spike, he can easily cancel and grab the ledge too), Sephiroth (Gigaflare + F-Smash), IIRC Dr. Mario (dummy strong F-Smash + non-flinching Side B), wouldn’t be surprised by others I’m forgetting.
I’ll dial this kind of, this is ruder than it needs to be and I apologize for such, but seriously, I’m BEYOND baffled both of you agreed on this. If it was just mentioned and done with, or have occasional niche little uses for it peppered throughout the moveset, no worries, it’s genuinely fun to hear places where you can put the pressure on a vulnerable opponent and have a higher success rate for an otherwise comically-risky move. But treating it like a big-deal serious threat multiple times throughout a moveset, continuously hyping it up in self-unaware ways, that’s just ridiculous.

-Anyways, F-Smash.
Actually wait, regarding Forward + B… making a hole isn’t hard and doesn’t take much time. Even if you don’t charge F-Smash, if you shieldbreak an opponent around 0% you probably have enough time to push them to a good spot, leap over them and use Down B to make a hole, leap back over and at least uncharged F-Smash -> dunk them, especially since you say yourself that low-%s this combo is probably true. That’s a solid 26.45% right there, more in a 1v1, even more if you have time to charge.
How good is the bury, would it be useful at such a low%? I bet you see where I’m going with this.
Regardless, when would you say this kills off of a shieldbreak, where you can perfectly space it and often push an opponent towards the ledge?

-love the tail-grabbing detail on Down + B
Wonder how lenient the “start” of the knockback is, how close you’d have to be to the ground for it to count. Theoretically, if the exaggerated splat hitstun is separate from regular hitstun (like a second hit), a higher still-splatting throw would give you more frames to work with.
Something we take for granted in Smash is that you can still be grabbed during blockstun, which is unheard of in any other major fighting game series; the way you mention spacing it to hit shielding opponents brings that to mind, given F-Smash is so small I think distance matters a whole lot less than their %. I’d be curious about how much time the opponent has to evade from a shielded F-Smash into immediate command grab.
Since these followups home in on the opponent, there’s a nasty possibility of hitting an opponent shielding on a platform with up-angled F-Smash, only to command grab them from below. That’d be evil~

-Take this with a grain of hypocritical salt, I overexplain a lot of things and bloat my movesets & comments, but Back + B’s first (and relatively chunky) paragraph is mostly explaining the obvious “hey buddy, this launches backwards, don’t forget that the backwards followup launches backwards, don’t do this in the wrong direction! :D”... ‘twas a bit silly. Can’t blame you since there’s not much else to say, but it’s fully respectable to just admit you’ve got nothing.

-Mildly dislike Up + B, I like it in a void and can see the vision, but it feels so excessive. F-Smash is already loaded to the brim with mechanics and extra possibilities, he’s already got at least 3 different mixups loaded every time that punch starts charging, I’d argue it’d be a lot better for the character if he had to commit to this move - everything else here forces him to commit to something (even inaction is unsafe due to endlag, it’s reliant on the opponent getting paralyzed by fear, which is good design), yet you also add on a fast followup that’s safe on shield. Glad it doesn’t follow up into anything, and extra glad he PROBABLY can’t react to a shield and pop this, but still, giving him an option to disregard the opponent and very likely be safe even on whiff (the backwards momentum and reaction time on the opponent’s part, recognizing which followup he went for), it makes the rest of the move lamer for it, and encourages more frequent F-Smashes because he can chuck them out in neutral more freely. Isn’t it cool to force opponents to take the risks for high reward, knowing he could juke them but every option is unsafe, he’s just as scared as they are and it’s overall a nuanced interaction, he’s taking an equally high risk? This sort of soft-reset feels out of place on a move otherwise befitting an F-Smash.

-Forgive me if I missed something, there’s dozens of details to absorb at once, and sometimes you explain some crucial info at seemingly-random points in the move, but Up + B mentions spacing the followup for something. Can you control how 16 flies, or when the followup precisely comes out? All I know is that pressing the input has him home in on the opponent and do the thing, do you press the button to initiate and then again (or hold -> release) to actually do the followup?

-You could probably swap this move with Down B, putting Rocket Punch there and vice-versa. This move is far more loaded with features, and wouldn’t feel unnatural when used in the air, whereas shifting Hell Heat to F-Smash doesn’t lose much, or at least, not much that Rocket Punch wouldn’t make up for - both would probably airstall, 16’s mini-laser is a bit weird and stubby-looking in the air & the main purpose for it is primarily grounded anyways (making holes and firing from them), plus it’d make 16’s ledgeguarding a bit less degenerate. Rocket Punch also adds more variety to his Specials since Side B also fires the same laser.


Up Smash:

-idk why you use a gif of his 5H / Standing Heavy, when 2H / Crouching Heavy is right there and matches what you’re going for better.

-He gets 16% (haha) armor while CHARGING? From Frame 5 onwards, and for as long as he holds the button + while he’s attacking? That’d be EXCELLENT in the official game, that’s how quickly DK’s Up B armor comes out. 16% is really hard for the roster’s majority to break, particularly with landing aerials.
This move isn’t much weaker than K. Rool’s U-Smash, which kills a bit earlier, but in exchange has diet Rest amounts of endlag and utilizes vastly worse armor (I mean the placement/timing, Belly Armor is good otherwise). This comes out 2 frames slower, but is far safer, strong throughout, has greater range, and hits hard enough to compare. Not sure how I feel about heavyweights treading on each other’s territories with arguably-better versions.
The lack of horizontal range is more than made up for by being such a potent anti-air, surpassing the advantages of a beeg sword by just letting you tank aerials head-on, especially so early into the move. I feel like that’d justify some heavier downsides. And we’re not just talking about OOS, this makes his burst range in neutral quite gross, via his respectable dash speed.

-shorthop -> sudden Up B towards the grounded opponent -> U-Smash would simultaneously be a galaxy-brain read yet decently feasible due to U-Smash’s speed, the burst range of Up B, and especially the armor… a dumb commitment but one of many nasty layers available to this character, might not be too dissimilar to wavedashing in Melee
Actually, how much landing lag does Up B have, loosely? If he flings himself into the ground, is he committing to some landing lag?

-Last time I’ll bring it up, I greatly wish you guys had made the hellscape more feasible for 16 to access, the creativity you’re exploring with how this install state affects 16 isn’t something I’ve seen before for him, and the knowledge that you made these aspects unavailable in 99% of matches is painful. These are all, by proxy, just as polarized as Last Resort - strong and crowd-pleasing spices to pre-existing formulas, yet they’re allowed to be because the unlock conditions for them are absurd.
I’m happy for you two having fun with 16, and dearly hope other readers can look at it as a glass-half-full, but it feels like because hellscapes are so rare, you went overboard and feature-bloated U-Smash further; the lava comes out on Frame 5 irrespective of the actual attack, lava is both comparable to Corrin’s infamous chainsaw (flinching hits to stagger them) while also uniquely dropping off ledges for spikes, it shieldpokes, it 2-frames, none of these come with nerfs to the already-excellent move at the core. We’ve had almost 7 years of Ultimate to know these mechanics aren’t fun to fight, even if they weren’t a mere part of a beefily-armored killing Smash Attack OOS.
If these were balanced around happening more feasibly in any match, a reliable gameplan 16 can strive for without some silly tomfoolery, these would be pretty cool IMO! Kinda like the highs and lows you feel when fighting Incineroar, where 16 fluctuates between periods of horrifying oppression at his peak, you have to worry not just about getting hit in the first place but also how you’ll handle it, since 16 can have some fun and probably land it at least once a match. You’d have good reason to think of these upsides more thoughtfully, tune them into a healthier direction, since the condition to use them would be normalized.
Hence again why I feel so deflated towards this mechanic, knowing how it could shake up almost every match in more tasteful ways. 16’s basically already won against an opponent if he hits Last Resort, he’s already outplayed them hard enough that his player’s probably better than them in most cases. Plus, these uses are antithetical to the best use-case for Last Resort (i.e. negating the 100% recoil via killing their last stock), since the hellscape is permanent, and you’ll therefore want it up as early as possible - saving LR for late-game is missing out on these bountiful rewards. Does LR need MORE dilemmas to consider while using it, more reasons to make a player hesitate before using it?

-Putting aside my pissiness, I do kinda like what you’re going for, it just feels unrefined.


Down Smash:

-Thinking back, I’d rather fully charge D-Smash if I get a 0% shieldbreak on somebody, it’s dealing 50% in a 1v1 and unless they’re an absolute god at mashing, I can add another 24% (that’s basically 30% when multiplied) via his Frame 8 U-Smash perfectly suited to punish the vertical popup from a bury. That’s just surface-level and assuming the highest level of play, wonder what methods of violation are available to an experienced/wise 16… WAIT, Up B doesn’t flinch, you can just spam it for extra damage, at low%s you can probably rack up at least 15% minimum extra (even with staling) and still have plenty of time for full-charge D-Smash, and while you’ll burn the HA charges in your backlog, minimum charge is always available so you don’t need to worry about running out mid-shieldbreak. Why would I instakill but take 100% recoil, when I can just do this? And that’s assuming the shield’s down around 0-20%, they’re either dead or basically dead if over that threshold.

-Oh, kept reading and you also mentioned jablocks and whatnot, those are helpful. Appreciate that level of thought, on paper I’m quite fond of how mixup-heavy 16 is from start-to-finish, even if I think things crack at the seams when you discuss the details.

-You scared me for a moment, mentioning he can grab out of buries - you don’t say it directly but I’m pretty sure you mean grabbing the pop-out. I mean, if a bury lasts long enough, you can grab them out of the pop even if it was a grab in the first place, pretty sure?
Obligatory “oh my god you can combo into Last Resort… oh wait no it’s really impractical and stupid” mention, although as the moveset goes on, it seems more self-aware each time. True awareness would be not mentioning it every chance you get.

-This move’s cool, definitely nerf the damage, it’s Frame 25 but the armor helps a lot,
Shocked neither platform pressure (16’s so big he’d cover a huge chunk of a platform with this move by standing underneath it, if not all of it in a meaningful situation - if he gets a tech scenario on a platform, it’s burying them since you didn’t specify any sweetspots/sourspots and they’re grounded on that platform) nor shieldbreak potential (it deals so much damage, and the charge armor might catch people who strike him first and then panic shield) are brought up.


Jab:

-I’m a sucker for this kind of animation.
Speaking of, I don’t blame you guys if you didn’t know, in PMEX the Black Shadow moveset has an extremely similar Jab, a one-hit knee strike that pops upwards for combos and whatnot, on a big burly grappler with an extremely quick U-Smash no less. Entirely outside of your control, I already know this move, though it’d be incomprehensible to think negatively of 16’s for that.

-Perhaps bias, perhaps seeing an attack I haven’t seen in the anime or DBFZ, I like this~
Maybe a bit strong, idk if he needs a Chroy-style Jab that indirectly buffs his U-Smash even further, but ignoring Up B and his other perks, a heavyweight kinda justifies this level of potency. The true followups off of it mixed with the unusual animation and juggle potential (super fond of that kind of psychological play), I’d love to try this in-game. And as you say, it avoids degenerate jablocks into Last Resort in a creative way.

-Wonder why you’d use Hasty Assault to punish airdodges, particularly off this move, you’re probably just overshooting the opponent when you’re already in range for a neutral airdodge and can on-reaction chase a directional dodge with universal movement, also saves a charge of Up B. Maybe for jumps, but that’s just part of the mindgame, not the whole story.


Dash Attack:

-A decent pairing with U-Smash, purely vertical and horizontal shoulder bashes with armor that kill at 120%, makes sense.

-Okay, so if you use Hasty Assault on the ground, DO you get grounded moves? I really want to know how the momentum is affected. He’s happy either way, if he keeps his momentum then he can launch himself forward and add the momentum from stuff like Dash Attack for hilarious burst range, if his momentum is cancelled then he can do weird dashdance jukes like Hasty Assault away and then suddenly instant Dash Attack back in.

-Wonder how much the endlag affects combos off of the late hit, I see a lingering shoulder bash Dash Attack and I think of Ganondorf’s being great for multi-purposes.

-Maybe a bit strong for how fast and armored it is, treading into Ganondorf and K. Rool territory more than favorably, I’m a bit worried it’s either outclassing theirs or adding to an overall larger sum for 16. Otherwise nothing really sticks out as complainable, I like this.


Forward Tilt:

-expected this on D-Tilt NGL, happy to see it in a clever anglable move

-Love the sliding knockback, super fond of seeing that kind of knockback; sacrifices high% launch power for a very reliable neutral reset (particularly helpful for most of a stock), and the opponent takes a good chunk of damage while you’re in a position 16 likes. The trip adds some fun around holes, more reasons for 16 to press advantage with & around them.
Hell Hawk? Blood Falcon’s vehicle?

-How much advantage does he have off of a wall bounce? Can he only go for stuff like Jab/Grab/U-Smash, or does he have more extended time? But fair warning 13 frames is the max, 14 and above just gives him a pseudo-infinite without any extra conditions… although I wonder if the forward momentum would self-moderate that sort of interaction, ruining his spacing eventually? Or perhaps the opposite where it just solidifies the opponent’s fate, even if it would’ve been out-of-range otherwise.
A little odd to see that part left barren, when you usually go in-depth into combo options.


Up Tilt:

-Wonder how close it is to Great King Headbutt (Dedede’s U-Tilt, yes that’s its name), a heavyweight headbutt with decent horizontal range due to how he leans, both come out about a frame apart, seem to have similar-ish purposes, although Dedede’s is more reliable at hitting grounded foes and 16’s is more air/platform focused; lightly reminds me of how Dedede’s Brawl U-Tilt was so good, even with Snake’s infamous kick at its best, I’ve heard it was generally considered that Snake’s was the best on flat terrain, but Dedede’s gave it a genuine run for its money with platforms around. But that’s a tangent for another time.

-No, no, no - we’ve been over this, if you multiply Ganondorf’s size by 1.25x he’s already clipping into Battlefield’s platforms, none of this “just reaches high enough to threaten low triplats” nonsense, Gevo’s headbutt absolutely covers most of those platforms. It’s weird you comment it’s so high up that it’ll whiff most characters literally standing in front of him, yet miss this obvious detail.
Heck, I don’t think opponents need to drop down to hit him with a falling aerial, I think many grounded moves could hit him outright if he’s standing underneath them, particularly ones that excel at 2-framing.

-Bias kicking in again, this kind of move tickles me, purely vertical moves that excel in their niche, but you’ll have to be reliant on other ground moves for horizontal interactions. Unsure how you could discuss the move further off the top of my head,


Down Tilt:

-alrighty, combo sweep
Might as well just rip the bandaid off and get to the point about Hasty Assault making it combo, you already mentioned D-Tilt -> Hasty Assault -> It’s Showtime combos earlier in the moveset and make sure to mention Hasty Assault all the time, I get summing up the weaker power in comparison to F-Tilt, yet saying “oh it can’t combo” only to make the obvious subversion, it feels like padding.
In general I dislike how strong Hasty Assault sounds, considering the contained/minimal downside in proportion to how much it buffs his combo game & general play. The more I hear about it and how many ways he sneaks it in to improve his plans, the more I worry about it.

-What happens after the 5 pebbles are milked out of the hole, does the hole despawn or is it visually marked as depleted in some way? What happens during hellscape where holes are permanent, do you have to refresh the holes manually, do they provide infinite pebbles, do they recharge over time, or are you just screwed?
I don’t like them, he’s got plenty of time to set up a hole when a higher% foe’s been launched offstage, and he doesn’t need more ways to throw projectiles off the ledge, IMO it’s unfitting to have the big boi grappler’s gameplan to place a high focus on getting people offstage so he can pressure their recoveries with these kinds of gimmicks, and takes focus away from his core strengths & the reasons a player would likely gravitate towards him in the first place. And from a balance perspective, why is this tied to the spammable D-Tilt with extremely minimal commitment? The move was fine as-is, but playing smart with it around a hole sounds degenerate.
This isn’t saying to oversimplify him, I like some of these details, but he feels diluted with so many of them.

Spoiler: Aerials & Throws

Neutral Air:

-”has fairly good range” -> absolute behemoth of a straight-forward kick on a guy bigger than Ganondorf, practically looks like a F-Air, he’s extending a lot further forward than most N-Airs as well.
Frame 5 sounds a bit healthier for this kind of N-Air, not as silly as the typical sex kick, and the higher landing lag is much appreciated.
“decently strong knockback that kills at 260%”, hmm

-Always bugs me when people discuss OOS options and use non-OOS moves as comparisons, it’s one thing that Jab is slower, it’s another that you’re forced to go through the 10+ frame vulnerability, making your Jab pointless as a “quick” comparison.
The mention of dodging attacks akin to Snake B-Air is interesting, 16’s animation (assuming you’re using the DBFZ pose unchanged) still leaves a lot of him vertical, with his knee sticking out below him and his diagonal backward. It pulls his legs in from under and sliiiiiightly behind him, though they’re already typically bent while falling. He could N-Air over or away from a grounded opponent and probably dodge most things, wonder how much of a difference this would make - maybe during a shorthop towards the opponent, it’s more likely to dodge?
Oh, you mentioned his air acceleration, it’s good like I assumed, but jeezums.
Outlasting AIRDODGES? I’d get spotdodges (those don’t last too long, 16 has slowish falling speeds when he wants to, it adds an interesting “fastfall N-Air for the typical ideal landing VS non-fastfall is worse against shields but beats spotdodge” layer that’s rarely mentioned. But neutral airdodge outlasts this unless pretty stale, I basically never see people airdodge downward, and sideways typically get the opponent out of range anyways - I can see 16’s airspeed catching up with opponents who try airdodging in the same direction as him, a niche scenario.

-Wonder how quickly Up B starts moving, if he can do N-Air -> Up B -> N-Air chains upward so consistently, that’s some Melee/Project M nonsense far away from Ult’s usual structure. I get N-Air -> double jump N-Air, but gosh Hasty Assault is a potent mental image. Does he need Sm4sh platform combos that ignore platforms?
Nice acknowledgement of his autocancel being tricky due to his unusual fallspeeds~

-Enjoying the additional writeup from Froy, little extra things to consider and other synergies.
Although the OOS discussion around Last Resort overfocuses on committal OOSes and neglects how many characters have very safe/tricky options, I get what you guys mean but the wording treats them like OOSes in general, which is unintuitive. If it discussed the safer options more, that’d be interesting.
There’s also a risk management aspect to it, where I feel it’s worth losing a couple of interactions to avoid getting Last Resorted, taking the 50% recoil and stun into consideration.


Forward Air:

-It’d probably be best if 16 pulled his knee inward somewhat after the move ends, or some likewise adjustment to the animation? When a character’s limb remains extended outward without a clear change, Smashers are hard-wired to expect a lingering hit on it, ESPECIALLY when it’s a knee strike on a F-Air, and you specifically note how similar the animations are. More subjectively/negligibly, while it’s for a clear mechanical purpose, such a big guy doing an iconic knee strike only for 2.2% and middling knockback, that sounds so wrong.
The other animations are good though, and having it spike but not reliably kill sounds pleasantly fresh. Although, how do the airborne hits set up prone, is it similar to aerial Side B?

-I guess I like this less because it feels a lot closer to specific/unique tools a couple characters already have without mixing it up that much (has the same bounce and shield mixup as Sora), and the way it does mix it up, it’s primarily yet another tech chase scenario.
This would fit really well as a followup to Rocket Punch, I think, maybe repurposing the rushing dunk (simulating DBFZ where you can jump -> instant airdash -> start falling with a sudden overhead, he kinda already has that via Hasty Assault but this could be cool and fit the idea of saving that resource, at the cost of it being committal) or the tail spin (could be neat to have a hitgrab F-Air?) would be an appropriate substitute. Or alternatively, maybe his Up B let you do this out of it as a different option from the 4% flinchless hit (maybe tap the button for the actionable dash, hold for the attacking rush)?


Back Air:

-”As his only multi-hit aerial”? Oh ok, you mean in the traditional can-dragdown sense, but that’s a curveball.
The potential mixup of crossing up with Hasty Assault to screw with the opponent’s parry timings, that’s EVIL, but kudos, that’s deviously clever.
Wish you mentioned how good it was from a shorthop buffer or OOS, given the speed and particularly the downward kick; feels like this move cuts off before you’ve discussed that, especially since F-Air is flat-out atrocious for that and rising N-Airs have their own problems.
Not bad, can’t make an argument for it treading on Banjo/Ridley territory too much (being a much more basic idea overall, and as you say, it patches up some crucial holes in his air play), undercooked discussion but what’s there was nice.


Up Air:

-badass name btw
The spinning animation reminds me of K. Rool’s D-Air, which comes out on Frame 14 but does a full front-flip over the course of 7-8 frames - thing is, it’s so fast that he just becomes an unreadable blur in-game, not everyone knows he does a flip. Something to consider when imagining this move’s animation, as assuming the entire startup animation consists of him spinning, it might be tricky to convey.
Wonder how his arm swings upward, normally strong uppercuts start with the fist lowered quite far down, yet you note the vertical range being an issue when not directly above him. Same goes with horizontal range.

-Very concerned about giving him consistent ladder combos and then proceeding to let him finish with K. Rool U-Air, that move’s EXTREMELY strong, and over-balanced by both the pathetic endlag and the upward hop (outside of the hitstun glitch letting you prevent the hop, it’s a large “you cannot fastfall this” window that forces you to play close to platforms if you want to land quickly), let alone how hard it is for him to combo into it.
Being delayed to 11 frames and completely lacking utility of any kind does add some vulnerability, but it’s beyond carried by being able to chain into it, you just die if 16 starts a combo from a high platform or otherwise near the blastzone.


Down Air:

-This is lame, I don’t like this kind of design at all, it feels like violating an unspoken (yet justified) rule to have a long-lasting stall-’n-fall that spikes the entire way down, yet is still fully survivable. Only comparable ones I can think of, Shiek’s D-Air kills her if she goes offstage, and Ridley’s Up B questionably tows the line since he can grab the ledge on the way down, but at least he has basically twice the startup as this, has to aim specifically for the ledgegrab if he wants to survive, and the downward angle is more restrictive.
18 frames isn’t that long, it’s effectively faster than Bowser’s since it lacks the upward shift and has a further-down hitbox due to the legs, and having 2 charges of Hasty Assault is nothing - he always has 1, and you get the second one from 5 seconds of staying grounded. And again, high stacks of High Assault isn’t something he relies on, he’s quite capable with just the 1, I consider extra charges to be helpful bonuses at the cost of not abusing constant airdashes.
People only like spikes because they feel earned, because they usually have tight timing/spacing or require some high-effort combo into them, either lasting for a very brief time, often having a counterintuitive upwards launch if you whiff the sweetspot, taking forever to come out, or having a high risk of death for meaningfully deep thrusts. This just has the best of all worlds + more, coming out quite fast, threatening 3 different angles at any time (on a character with already excellent air control), being survivable, burying grounded opponents because why not I guess (admittedly 16 has so many ways to bury/prone the opponent that I feel a bit jaded to it, and this move has enough attributes as-is), and more importantly, being an extremely lenient spike that’s not hard to land.
This move feels unnecessarily loaded with upsides, on top of the aforementioned unspoken rule. It doesn’t sound hype, it sounds stacked in his favor.



Grab + Pummel:

-Dash grab being faster than his regular grab is wild, not just for novelty, but because 1) standing grab is only “slower than average” rather than anything indicating terrible, would wager it’s 8-9 frames? and 2) dash grabs are usually 3-4 frames slower than them, so 16’s is probably faster than any dash grab in the game, and faster than a good chunk of standing grabs on top of that. The endlag probably keeps it in check, although such a nimble grab is spooky.

-classic chokehold + pummel, that works; I like that you have to say “generally” because N-Air -> (jump) N-Air -> (up b) N-Air -> N-Air -> N-Air -> N-Air -> N-Air -> U-Air is proudly advertised, although the 5 Up Bs dilute the Stale Move Negation table a lot.


Forward Throw:

-adore the animation~
The extra damage is a lot, but it makes sense given you need holes around. Kinda wish the hellscape version simply added more damage to holes, the free extra 5% on all F-Throws doesn’t require any thought or decisionmaking on the user’s part, at least the other hellscape buffs tend to accentuate the bonus range/placement rewards.


Back Throw:

-Some redundancy with Rocket Punch Back + B animation-wise. Also, you keep specifying forward knockback on backward moves, I hope I know what you mean and you’re just saying it launches in the expected direction.


Up Throw:

-Part of me feels a discrepancy between a huge android backbreaking you and it only dealing 9%, though the very subdued animation balances it out, I think it’d be smooth to get used to.


Down Throw:

-that animation looks so goofy, I’m charmed
Another prone, thought it fits well on the grappler’s throw, and the hole bury is similarly reasonable… not a fan of hellscape constantly burying, unsure how to buff the prone other than slightly more advantage (not enough for a combo, but a little more time for a slower move to catch their getup?), but maybe dunking somebody into a hole would cause some quick damage over time, as they’re burned by the hole so close to lava - could be a funny layer to mashing mixups, as delayed mashing would lead to them taking even more damage, but in exchange deliberately staying buried would be less expected.
Sorry for not commenting much on the throw’s functions, they’re all alright, have some decent synergy and complimentary design with his kit don, they just don’t break much from the damage/knockback/combos/mixups quartet mold. Not necessarily a problem, just means I lack much to say.


Final Smash:

-I get it’s his signature move, but you use Hell’s Flash so much in the moveset that having him use it again (with nothing else to spice it up other than size/power/screaming) feels limp for a Final Smash - Samus & Mii Gunner’s giant lasers are distinct from their usual arsenals, R.O.B.’s regular-looking red beams are plentiful and homing on top of the main laser being huge and unusual, you get the idea, even if there’s some loose similarities in the kit, there’s usually some sort of X factor to it that really makes it shine.

Spoiler: Wrap-Up

This feels like the kind of collaboration where both writers focused on adding upon each other, the overall moveset gives massive vibes of one person contributing a cool idea and the second person saying “oh wouldn’t it be even more awesome if it also did X?”. It feels unfair to call the moveset style-over-substance since there IS a respectable amount of thought put into why you’d want to use one move over the other, but then there’s numerous questionable decisions peppered throughout the blog, and many extra details that feel tacked on rather than properly considered/balanced. I wager I’d be more sympathetic to this kind of design if it was one person getting carried away in their own echo chamber, but it’s two highly-talented and experienced movesetters working together, and I’m shocked by some of the things you two missed.

My apologies for railing on Last Resort so hard, but I hope you can see why I was so turned off by it, and the fact that the moveset started on such a controversial foot for me (and how frequently it’s brought up to remind me & how it’s discussed/built upon) ended up tainting the kit for me going in. Hasty Assault isn’t quite as extreme, yet as a moveset-wide core part of the kit, those issues I have with it stain everything else, and I’d love to hear an argument for what you guys think about them. The former is a comically min-maxed all-in version of already bad moves, and the latter feels like 16’s balanced around not always being as cracked out of his mind as he could be (but still concerningly cracked at a baseline), rather than a more natural lower-than-average VS better-than-average swing like Ult usually does.

To be fair, I’m unnecessarily focused on the negatives a lot of the time, I’ll usually focus on the piling-up grievances I have with a moveset, and it’ll drown out some of the enjoyment I could’ve gathered. I looked past or didn’t mention a lot of the good stuff in here, there’s a lot to enjoy for a less cynical eye: 16 brings a unique mixture of agile air movement and deadly grounded grabs leading into horrifying vortex pressure as he just keeps putting you into bad situations, the vision on display is remarkable. Side B, most of F-Smash, and F-Tilt were solid highlights. While his tools have many ways to stray from his fundamental gameplan and dilute him a bit, the aspects that do tailor towards it, there’s some solid stuff where it counts.

Yet ultimately, have to admit I’m disappointed. Leaped into this blog with higher standards, assuming for something great from a collab of your combined caliber. Perhaps it was just my overly-raised bar, but couldn’t get behind this one.