Luigi's low tier?

[nublet06]

Luigi is only really hard to edge gaurd when people dont have experience edge gaurding him.

fox, sheik, marth, and anybody that Emerican is playing at the moment can gimp luigi so stupidly.....that its stupid.

 

[RAM]

I agree. Though I might even go as far as to say that it's not that bad even against characters like peach. And everything you said about DIing well and being able to do the down-B good completely applies and helps out immensely when trying to recover against a character with good recovery themselves.

The fact is, it's very difficult to ledge-gaurd a smart Luigi that knows how to use Luigi's recovery to it's fullest, and is able to do so, so long as the Luigi has everything there is to have when recovering. (That is; second jump, charged down-B, and some room to do Green missile and still be able to space things afterwards)

We all obviously know that Luigi's almost at the opponent's complete mercy if he doesn't have a second jump and down-B.

You understood everything that I mentioned. and that is the only point I was trying to get across and what you have added is true as well about having a jump, the correct spacing and your Down B. they all have to work in unison to have a successful recovery.

 

[Luigi Ka-master]

Luigi is only really hard to edge gaurd when people dont have experience edge gaurding him.

fox, sheik, marth, and anybody that Emerican is playing at the moment can gimp luigi so stupidly.....that its stupid.

That's noooot truuuue. It might be almost true for Sheik and Marth (wow they're both really realy gay), but otherwise there's almost always ways to get around gimps as long as you don't use any recovery technique of Luigi's in a not-so-smart way, that gets you gimped.

I mean, for Fox, I'm pretty sure I could say Silent Wolf has every Fox-Luigi gimp in the book down to near perfection. But as long as you space and DI attacks so that you're far away as possible when Fox gets done doing whatever he's trying to do to gimp you, you can make it back to the stage. (Keep in mind that making it back onto the stage very well could mean making it back onto the stage with punishable lag, but nonetheless you make it back onto the stage)

I wanna play Emerican. He sounds good. >_<

 

[luigismash294]

I agree. Though I might even go as far as to say that it's not that bad even against characters like peach. And everything you said about DIing well and being able to do the down-B good completely applies and helps out immensely when trying to recover against a character with good recovery themselves.

The fact is, it's very difficult to ledge-gaurd a smart Luigi that knows how to use Luigi's recovery to it's fullest, and is able to do so, so long as the Luigi has everything there is to have when recovering. (That is; second jump, charged down-B, and some room to do Green missile and still be able to space things afterwards)

We all obviously know that Luigi's almost at the opponent's complete mercy if he doesn't have a second jump and down-B.

PLUS, there is always the chance of getting a misfire.

 

[chlor0form]

PLUS, there is always the chance of getting a misfire.

You gotta love his misfire >.< I'm not a luigi player myself, but I believe, as well as any other low tier characters, that he's a character that needs more development than the common terms of technical skill and the like. To do well with him, you can't just scratch the surface./?

 

[nublet06]

i think all fox really has to do is keep jumping up and down on the ledge and time his invinciblity frames.

if you missile too close you get back aired or possibly shined. hopefully you get back aired cause that could save you with proper DI. but it might just set you up for another back air.

if you dont missile close to him so that you dont get hit....then you are going to have to tornado or else you are dead. you do your tornado and if you get close enough he will drop and shine you. you are dead.

now lets say you DONT get close and you tornado perfectly so that you can jump and hit him with an aerial or air dodge on.

fox times his ledge hops so that when you jump at him with a chop he is invincible because he has just landed. you get shined and you are dead. OR he can just back up a little bit on the level, wait for you to miss you aerial and fall off and shine you.

or lets say you jump and air dodge. fox can pretty much mess up on anything.....and still recover in time to punish you because he is so fast. lets say he drops down and shines....but misses. he will jump out of the shine and land on your head with a back air that knocks you back off the level.....or an upair that knocks you out of the top.

if you tornado low to avoid the shine...then its time for you to use your jump. fox jump up and lands back on the ledge just in time for you to use you jump and try to chop or up air him. but since he just landed he is invincible and will not get hurt....and drop down and shine you.

now lets say even your jump wasnt enough and you have to up b. you are obviously dead and i dont have to tell you why.

Fox is labeled as the best character in the game because if he is played flawlessly he will win. every time. i think fox edge gaurding luigi is really only up to the fox to let him back on. a lot of characters can royally screw luigi just by knowing what to do while on the edge. its something that my friend Emerican got pretty annoyingly good at. once you know what luigis recovery looks like.....and you realise when you are safe and whne you are in trouble, its only up to you to let the luigi back on. hes pretty much already dead. just time ledge hops so that you are invincible when he does jumps up to hit you and you get a free shine. just see him try to hit you with the tornado and hes dead. just watch him missile too close and hes dead.

 

[Luigi Ka-master]

Whoa whoa whoa, let's go over these examples one more time.

Wait, no, let's even go further back and look at some of the possibilites of how Luigi went OFF the ledge in the first place.

Let's see here...maybe Luigi just opened his shield right as a shine was coming out of drill, and he happened to be semi-close to the edge when it happened. Now, if you have experience with this certain situation, you know that Luigi will slide off the edge, Fox will run up and off of the ledge, and probably shine you again, because your fat slow Luigi butt doesn't fall fast enough to grab the ledge in time. This usually results in you being dead.

NOW, here's the catch: MAYBE, just maybe, there's a way to not be slow in everything you do and have the option of fast falling the ledgegrab before Fox gets to you. It works. You grab the ledge before Fox can shine you.

And speaking of ledges, let's quickly go over a few idiotic ways to get yourself killed when trying to get back on the stage from the ledge. Let's see here, you could try to do a mindless ledgehopped aerial, and maybe get CC countered with a shine/jump shine. Or maybe a ledgehopped aerial that's simply shielded and b-aired/n-aired out of shield.

Let's look at another even more common gimp of Fox': Back-throw shine ledgegaurd yadayada. You get b-thrown, now there's a whole list of things you could do right now. About one to two of them won't get you killed.

You could try retardedly chopping at the Fox, and hey, maybe if the Fox is a complete idiot, or doesn't space anything at all, he'll get hit by the chop. You'll find though that most good Foxes will do something much smarter, such as dash dance or simply wavedash back after you chop, and then shine you.

Then of course you could always be REALLY dumb, and happily 2nd jump your way after the b-throw straight into a shine.

You could maybe freak out and try to air-dodge back onto the stage immediately, maybe even using your second jump some point between the b-throw and the air-dodge. This will usually either result in Fox shining you before you hit the ground with your air-dodge, or maybe another b-throw, which leads to you air-dodging again, which eventually leads to getting KOed with an up-smash because you've been b-thrown so many times that you're now at 150%. This is assuming you're repeatedly trying to air-dodge back onto the stage every time, of course.


Now, maybe you're just a little smarter, and decide to just go straight for the ledge after the b-throw. While this tactic actually does work pretty nicely, the Fox can adapt and just wait for you to get near the ledge, then shine accordingly.


Then, maybe there's even a smarter way to try and get back onto the ledge. MAYBE, you can do something that seems slightly unorthodox, and tornado with DI away from Fox as soon as you get b-thrown. Maybe you'll get b-aired out of it, but now (assuming you DIed up when you got b-aired) you are out of range of Fox and his shines and aerials, and have another charged tornado you can use to get even higher, maybe even higher than Fox can jump when you use your second jump. Even if Fox shines you after or during your tornado, (which most Foxes won't do because it's not even that effective) as long as you don't DI the shine downwards or some other idiotic direction, you'll have enough space and heigth to avoid most anything Fox has. Because you will either have your tornado charged again, or you will have gotten enough heighth with the 1st tornado to get high enough and far enough away from Fox.

The key is to get as high and as decently far away from Fox as you can, so that you can reach the stage. You should almost never be going for the ledge, unless you really have to.

And also, a lot of your examples seem to be explaining situations where you're already at high percentages (or had really really bad DI on something I guess, which wasn't a very good choice on your part), and have already used all of your heighth with Green missiles and second jumps to get near the stage. In these situations there's pretty much a 90% chance you're going to get KOed. Luigi has a decent recovery, not an amazing one. Most characters are going to get ledgegaurded by Fox successfully at around 70-90%.

And I thought Fox is labeled as the best character in the game because Foxes in the current meta-game are doing well, no?

 

[WeedLuigi]

Pretty interesting debate...will nublet06 reply...

 

[SexualHarassmentPanda]

Ignore This Post

 

[SexualHarassmentPanda]

or you could be leet skeet mcsheet sexy pants and b-up when they go after they b-throw and send them to the sky's.

too bad that would never work.

 

[El HP]

IMO luigi recovery is average is not fantastic but is not complete crap like Falco, C. Falcon, Roy, Doc etc. actually few are the characters with great recoveries besides you can edgeguard fox fairly easily one aerial when he is trying to get back and he is dead.

 

[emerican]

I wanna play Emerican. He sounds good. >_<

i hate luigi

edit: there are tons of ways to edge guard or avoid being edge guarded, as both of you listed... the real trick is, "how can i mix those options up so i don't get ***** in 5 seconds by a SMART player". More often then not, you're gonna get caught by someone that has luigi fighting experience... use yo mindgames son

 

[nublet06]

back throw to anything should never kill Luigi. And I never said it would. so you can pretty much throw away 90% of your response. now getting shined by the ledge? its pretty easy to work your way out of that one, but im not gonna tell someone they sucked for getting shined off th eledge and then edge gaurded or shined again. i think its a 30% chance youl will die if that happens. your options out way his. he can hope that you try to jump up at you and just wait til your done to shine you. or he can drop down and shine you if you get low. pretty easy to escape tho.

im simply talking about recovering against fox....in actual situations. IMO if i die below 70% i got gimped. fox has many ways to do this. its really easy to say....."you shouldnt of gotten hit" but thats just ********. it has nothing to do with the conversation. that is talking about the luigi player being better than the fox player. not....the character fox against the character luigi.

ill sum up my main point. if luigi uses his side b, or down b to recover in the game super smash brothers melee. it is up to the following characters to let him live or die.

Marth, sheik, fox, jiggs, peach. ill even even throw doc and falcon in to it.

i know if I made it back, im pretty lucky and should try to make the best of it. if i didnt make it back. i know its cause luigis recovery is too slow and the person im playing agaisnt has a brain.

if you are living over 100% on fox, its usually the fox players fault. fox gimps luigi form the sides until hes at around 70% and kills him out of the top without needing to combo. thats just how it works. i still think luigi wins the match. im just saying.....fox is gay and edge gaurds luigi very well. i still love playing fox tho.

 

[maelstrom218]

How about this: theory fighting is mostly pointless, because we have no idea if these hypothetical situations involving hypothetical people using these hypothetical strategies will actually pan out to support the hypothetical arguments that we're putting forward.

As far as I can tell, Luigi's recovery--regardless of whoever is edgeguarding him--is average-to-subpar because he can only alternate between completely horizontal and completely vertical vectors, both of which are extremely predictable. Not being able to mix between the two hurts him. It gets even worse when you don't have a charged down-b or a double jump.

That's all there is to it.

 

[Joshu]

He should be bottom tier.

 

[maelstrom218]

He should be bottom tier.

. . .

Ooookaaaayyyy. . .I actually liked the crazy theory-fighting argument better. Nevermind; carry on Ka-master and nublet.

 

[Luigi Ka-master]

Deal Maelstrom.

ill sum up my main point. if luigi uses his side b, or down b to recover in the game super smash brothers melee. it is up to the following characters to let him live or die.

Marth, sheik, fox, jiggs, peach. ill even even throw doc and falcon in to it.

Uhh...I'm pretty sure the same thing could be said about half the cast of characters.

"If you're potentially perfect at ledgegaurding with said characters, you can ledgegaurd untill death half the cast of characters as long as they are forced to use a recovery method that isn't there second jump. (excluding Yoshi)"

Reworded a litte, but still, I'd consider that a true statement.

 

[Eggz]

back throw to anything should never kill Luigi. And I never said it would. so you can pretty much throw away 90% of your response.

What else is there besides the backthrow gimp and following up shines with an off the stage shine? Not much else is gimping. A gimp is a ledgeguard at a low percent that you can do little to prevent. Most everything (including backthrow shine and shine followup shine) can be easily prevented by using your recovery intelligently.

IMO if i die below 70% i got gimped.

That's horrid logic xD. That isn't gimping, thats ledgeguarding. IMO anyway. No offense. =] <3

ill sum up my main point. if luigi uses his side b, or down b to recover in the game super smash brothers melee. it is up to the following characters to let him live or die.

Marth, sheik, fox, jiggs, peach. ill even even throw doc and falcon in to it.

I'm not jockin' ammon here, but I've gotta say wrong on that.

I've seen Ammon get around ledgeguards soooo many times, it's nigh impossible to gimp him now. I've played almost every character vs his Luigi, and I'd like to think I've got some pretty savage ledgeguarding, but the only times I ever kill him are off the top or off the blastline.

Luigi can intelligently recover to the point where it's actually difficult to ledgeguard him. If you keep DIing up against high knockback moves, you'll gradually be recovering from a higher and higher trajectory, and having more of a chance for a misfire. Sure, you'll get percent racked up quickly, but luigi's got a pretty fair recovery. If you have sick recovery hax0rskillz0rs, you'll only be dieing from spikes, or off the blastlines. This is, obviously, impossible, I'm just saying its not that easy for Luigi to get gimped.

Marth, fox, jiggz, and shiek all ledgeguard Luigi very well, but the others are debateable. They don't have enough options to destroy luigi's recovery that bad. And it's not insta-dead when you're off the ledge in any case against the edgeguarding-machines I mentioned earlier in this paragraph.

if you are living over 100% on fox, its usually the fox players fault. fox gimps luigi form the sides until hes at around 70% and kills him out of the top without needing to combo. thats just how it works. i still think luigi wins the match. im just saying.....fox is gay and edge gaurds luigi very well. i still love playing fox tho.

Luigi doesn't win that match. Also, I find it kind of awkward that theres a 30% window between the fox player gimping you (0-70%) and the fox player being dumb for not having killed you (>/=100%) This part isn't neccesary at all, not trying to insult you, just pointing out a few pieces of flawed logic.

 

[Sintenal]

He should be bottom tier.

i agree

this man speaks the truth

 

[Eggz]

No he doesn't. xD

This is the second time I've found a texan to be an idiot today. Leave it to Texas =/

 

[Sintenal]

not wise to get on the bad side of a mod

 

[Eggz]

It was worth clowning Texas, of that I can assure you.

 

[Sintenal]

i like you

if you go to FC we must play, I wonder if all those years playing scav have meant anything

 

[Eggz]

Woah, for sure. Heres my cell number so you can hunt me down when the time comes.

425-923-5796

 

[Sintenal]

sweet Eggz' number

now i can die happy

o yeah we are supposed to be talking about luigi

uh....

 

[Eggz]

Nah, talkin about my phone number is tight.

Until we get ROFL's rebuttle, nothin really can progress with this discussion.

ROFL, are you goin to FC?

 

[nublet06]

Man i wish I could go to FC. its so much money tho. I think i am spoiled out here. too many people to play all the time. i dont get the itch to travel anymore.

anyway back on topic.

i think fox is good at edge gaurding luigi. ill just leave the fox discussion at that. if you guys want to disagree thats fine. agree to disagree.

i also feel like people think i am complaining or something. i rarely ever get gimped. im just observing that a lot of people i play agaisnt dont know how to properly edge gaurd me. so when i play someone who knows a lot about luigi like my friends, or when i play smart players like DSF, Ken.....they tend to kill me no matter how many things i do correctly. tell me i didnt DI smart.....or tornado well enough. say whatever you want. i think luigi is easy to edge gaurd even when he does everything perfectly.

maybe the people who work on this list know a little more than we do? Luigi obviously doesnt belong in low tier, but hes def not high tier. im just supporting my opinion on why he isnt very high on the list.


lol and eggz whats wrong with thinking under 70% is a gimp? i would generally like to live above 100%. if you can have a produvtive offensive stock thats lasts you up to 150% you obviously have better chances of winning than if you die at 70%. where is the bad logic? i think you meant that i have a different opinion on when it is acceptable to die.

 

[Eggz]

Man i wish I could go to FC. its so much money tho. I think i am spoiled out here. too many people to play all the time. i dont get the itch to travel anymore.

Do it anyway. Go to FC instead of OC (like ima doin =])

lol and eggz whats wrong with thinking under 70% is a gimp? i would generally like to live above 100%. if you can have a produvtive offensive stock thats lasts you up to 150% you obviously have better chances of winning than if you die at 70%. where is the bad logic? i think you meant that i have a different opinion on when it is acceptable to die.

I'm horribly offended by the opinion you don't share with me. >=[

>_> <_< jaykay though, yeah, I just meant you have a wierd opinion lol. 70% is pretty high for it to be a gimp imo and its just an edgeguard, but we have our differences. =]

 

[nublet06]

yeah im not going to OC3 either. long story short.

Manacloud banned me from the westminster bi weeklies because he doesnt like me.
My friend Aesis banned manacloud from the UCLA monthlies.
Manacloud banned Aesis from OC3 and hes my good friend....so none of us are going.

if i had a job i would have money and i would go to FC. but i wont be starting my job until summer time...so i wont have enough money in time.

you guys should come to Super Champ combo. it isnt announced yet but its gonna be siiiiick tournament in socal. possibly MLG sponsored, but they might sponsot OC3 and maybe thats too many MLG events in socal.

 

[Eggz]

We'll do super champ combo for sure. =]

You should still try to ninja up enough money for FC though.

 

[mario-man]

Hey!
Is that my seat!?
...Oh, and btw, Luigi has favor vs Mario.

 

[Eggz]

LOL Way to be.

 

[mrb1tch3s]

lol....sintenal is tight...reppin the House =D
but i found out why luigi is low...
its because hes very complicated and a little bit harder to do mind games with
ive been using a lot of Falco, Marth, and Sheik lately and the reason Luigi is low tier is because he is floaty and has low traction... his short hop flies and people see your attacks coming from a mile away... also its hard to to come back with an attack on a shield becuase u slide away...
so YES...luigi is low tier =D

 

[strider43]

Luigi has a lot of very bad disadvantages. Other than that he is a very fun character.

 

[technomancer]

Mario owes pink luigi rent money IMO.

 

[Umpy]

luigi isn't low tier i don't care what anybody says. He is a beast. I beat everyone with him at my base.(I am American but i live over-seas) I dont even main him either. I also personally think his recovery is good and his floatyness throws people off. I love his double aerials. He is a great charcter. I persoanlly think he should be at least middle middle tier.

 

[Gea]

Too many poor matchups and he's kind of tricky to use. He's somewhat underrated, but then again, alot of characters are.

 

[C 3]

Don't the tiers depend on the character's success in tournaments? if so, you have to consider the millions of people that not only main the top 5, but those who gave up on Luigi for the top 5. Hence, Luigi became low tier. I may be wrong, so please comment on this.

Luigi's build in this game wasn't the greatest to say the least, but it all comes down to mastering your match ups, techniques and mind games (depending on the opponent). Because his build wasn't as great as Marth for example, it will take much longer to master Luigi. Many of you have seen that there are players who aren't too great with the top 5, but because they use the top 5 they are successful. Also, take Ka Master vs. Sastopher. Two great players, one top tier, one low tier. Ka Master knows Luigi inside out, and studied his match up very well, hence was successful against Sas. I think it's all about mastering the character overall.

 

[Umpy]

Don't the tiers depend on the character's success in tournaments? if so, you have to consider the millions of people that not only main the top 5, but those who gave up on Luigi for the top 5. Hence, Luigi became low tier. I may be wrong, so please comment on this.

Luigi's build in this game wasn't the greatest to say the least, but it all comes down to mastering your match ups, techniques and mind games (depending on the opponent). Because his build wasn't as great as Marth for example, it will take much longer to master Luigi. Many of you have seen that there are players who aren't too great with the top 5, but because they use the top 5 they are successful. Also, take Ka Master vs. Sastopher. Two great players, one top tier, one low tier. Ka Master knows Luigi inside out, and studied his match up very well, hence was successful against Sas. I think it's all about mastering the character overall.

i thought the teir list was based on potental.

I love luigi.

 

[Pakman]

I think the order of the tier list is right, but the tiers themselves need to be expanded so less then half of the characters are low tier..