Gea
Smash Master
It doesn't matter. Matchups forever are more important than tiers. Luigi doesn't have a good time with basically any of top tier. Thus...
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Luigi's low tier?
- Thread starter Possum Awsome
- Start date
C 3
Smash Ace
Isn't the potential of a character shown in tournaments?
Luigi is simply low tier because he doesn't place as high as he has the potential to in tournaments. Match-ups with higher tier characters mean little when the skill of the players is tossed into the mix. If one player is better than the other, they'll win regardless of if they're using the sandbag or shine-happy fox. period
Gea
Smash Master
That's not true at all. Some characters have a decidedly easier time with others, that is why counterpicks exist.
That's very true, but counterpicks don't automatically decide the match. They do turn the matches in their favor, that simply means that the fight is gonna be harder to win and will require a little fancy footwork on Luigi's part. After all, everyone has their counterpicks; some more than others (lol pichu).
LaserBust
Smash Journeyman
Lui isin't low tier, wut a useless thread. =p. Yea.. well.. Lui ownz.. I can understand why hes so low on the tier but as with any character, tier does'nt mean anything out there on the battlefield. It just comes down to the better player.
Gea
Smash Master
No, but they can overcome player skill, even if they are "equal." You're putting too much stock in the player. If pure skill could overcome all counterpicks you wouldn't have things like 0-death chainthrows. What then? It doesn't matter how skilled you are, once you're grabbed its over.
And since Luigi has more fights that are harder to win than say Sheik, Luigi is a worse character than Sheik overall. Its pretty simple logic. Not all characters were created equally. To think this is folly. However... you're right, it doesn't decide the outcome. But **** is it a major factor.
nublet06
Smash Lord
Gea
Smash Master
Yeah, you CAN avoid grabs the entire match, but ROFL, you should know that just because you're a better player doesn't mean you'll win against someone else. Other factors come into play. Ultimately yes, being a better player will lead you to have the skills to combat poor matchups (be it a secondary or just knowing the match better) HOWEVER that doesn't mean Luigi will ever consistently win tournies no matter who you are. You might be rockin' but just because you avoided grabs one match doesn't mean you can for multiple sets.
Ignoring the fact that tiers (well, you can kinda ignore that) or that matchups (!) exist is plain stupid. I'm ALL for playing who you want to play and maining who you want to main, but face it, you're at a disadvantage against Sheik. That doesn't mean you can't win... but ROFL, do you really wanna go up against DSF's Sheik with your Luigi? I mean you have to play much better than he does to win the match. And even then, you might be the better player but because of lame stuff he can do to you, you still lose. So wait, does that mean he's the better player? Not nessisarily.
It isn't a black and white issue.
nublet06
Smash Lord
hell yeah i want to play dsf with my luigi. that **** is fun. i pretty much win on all my counterpick stages. i just got to figure something out on yoshis story cause he ***** me on that level. and FoD is ******** against sheik.
I dont lost to DSF because he plays sheik. i lose to DSF because he has been playing smash for like 5 years. he is a better player than i am. He also beat my in luigi dittos in a low tier tournament. so the better question is. do i really wanna play dsf early in a bracket? no....because hes fuggin good.
I dont lost to DSF because he plays sheik. i lose to DSF because he has been playing smash for like 5 years. he is a better player than i am. He also beat my in luigi dittos in a low tier tournament. so the better question is. do i really wanna play dsf early in a bracket? no....because hes fuggin good.
Gea
Smash Master
It was an example ROFL, not to be taken literally...
And not only that, but you do admit to having Sheik issues with Luigi, which was my point.
And not only that, but you do admit to having Sheik issues with Luigi, which was my point.
You're making perfect sense Gea, there are too many variables in the match to make a blanket statement like the better player wins. Ignoring tiers is quite possibly the dumbest thing you could really do while picking and choosing your matchups. That's what I mean by the better player, they take all of this into account. A professional would use a mario against a marth knowing that they have a definite disadvantage, but knows what to avoid and how to attack. Same for any other match up of that sort. So making a blanket statement like that was kinda stupid of me without elaborating.
Winston
Smash Master
I think Luigi is actually overrated. What most people have been saying in this thread is an example. I'm not terribly experienced, but I did take my luigi to Pound 2, and that sorta changed my point of view about how good luigi is. I barely made it out of first round of pools, as it not only contained Chillindude but a smart sheik player and an insanely fast (and smart) fox player. Second round of pools, I lost to a bunch of ganondorfs, and a peach, as well as others.
Playing ganon, his shuffled aerials made it really hard to approach, and shieldgrabbing wasn't even an option because of luigi's low traction. On peach, her approaches and moves are ultimately better, so the only way for luigi to win is to pretty much predict what the opponent will do, without being too predictable yourself.
Name a single favorable matchup with a character ABOVE luigi and maybe then I'll consider him higher...
Even if it were about potential, what makes luigi have more potential than, say, a falcon samus mario doc puff etc.?
Playing ganon, his shuffled aerials made it really hard to approach, and shieldgrabbing wasn't even an option because of luigi's low traction. On peach, her approaches and moves are ultimately better, so the only way for luigi to win is to pretty much predict what the opponent will do, without being too predictable yourself.
Name a single favorable matchup with a character ABOVE luigi and maybe then I'll consider him higher...
Even if it were about potential, what makes luigi have more potential than, say, a falcon samus mario doc puff etc.?
coolhat
Smash Journeyman
Mario and Doc for one. And if u know how to handle it luigi can be favorable against fox's
Winston
Smash Master
Awww man, I totally forgot about mario and doc >__> that is true. But two out of umm, what, ten? isn't that convincing.
Anyway, Fox can be favorable if you know how to handle it AND the fox doesn't know how to handle it. Shines and edgeguards wreck, seriously.
Lixivium
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2006
- Messages
- 2,689
This is generally NOT assumed to be the case while compiling tier lists.
Luigi Ka-master
Smash Lord
Gustav Wind said:
Hmm...it seems like you're overlooking...intelligent methods of playing Luigi...the example you gave of Peach and Ganon made it seem like there's no way for Luigi to take advantage of anything seemingly good that those characters have.
If you're going to play a low-tier character and expect to be good, you really have to think about how to fight characters that have attacks that are easier to land with. That doesn't necessarily mean those characters are better as a whole because of those attacks, it just means that it takes more brain power on Luigi's part to out-wit them.
I'd say as long as you're good at spacing, are plenty patient and don't bum-rush into every approach against Peach, and are particularly careful about recovering, the match-up is pretty even.
Against Ganon, maybe you shouldn't be trying to sheild-grab after he hits you with an aerial. Maybe you should just abuse his speed with quick, retreating approaches. Then maybe, for all you know, being pushed a mile back by shielding his relatively slow, predictable aerials might start to seem like a good thing, seeing as how it gives you plenty of space to plan your next hit-and-run until you can lead into something more damaging.
Definately agree'd. sheiks really gay.nublet06 said:
Winston
Smash Master
I know I'm not a very smart player, ka-master. Something I need to work on... >__> And I wasn't trying to shieldgrab ganon, it was just annoying that it wasn't possible at all.
Just saying, if you need that much more brainpower to outwit your opponent, then doesn't that mean you have to be a better player in order to make the matchup even? That means that the other character should be higher on the tier list, right?
And, @ Livixium, I know that =P I was saying that in general Fox vs Luigi is NOT favorable for luigi.
Just saying, if you need that much more brainpower to outwit your opponent, then doesn't that mean you have to be a better player in order to make the matchup even? That means that the other character should be higher on the tier list, right?
And, @ Livixium, I know that =P I was saying that in general Fox vs Luigi is NOT favorable for luigi.
Luigi Ka-master
Smash Lord
Lol, sorry about that comment about intelligent methods. I should have chose my wording more carefully, such as "very clever methods" or something more along those lines. But yeah, sorry.
Maybe I should reword some more of my post, too. >_<
To play Luigi well, you don't have to have so much just more brain-power, rather you have to be thinking with a style that's different to how one would generally think of approaches and the like with top-tier characters.
That sounds a little better, I think.
I am a Luigi main, and I made it into Brackets at pound 2 and my 2nd pool had Kirbstir, DaShizWiz and a really campy marth. I almost beat Kirbstir too.
slikvik
Smash Master
Tell em Pak. No jonzzz
C 3
Smash Ace
Luigi takes a smart player who knows the match ups and levels well to win. Yes, it is harder to win with Luigi than let's say....... Marth. Is it impossible? no. I've been in doubt with Luigi multiple times, but if you are willing to put enough work into Luigi, you can make it work, Ka Master for example.
Luigi can chain grab, tech chase and edge guard the spacies. Easier said than done, but it's still possible. Spacing and tilt abuse on sheik is crucial. Catch peach's turnips, smart edge guarding and good recovery can even out the peach match up. Falcon is more or less the same strategy as the spacies. Seperate the IC's and whoop them one by one.
All in all, since everyone plays those characters, you won't have too much to worry about after taking these strategies into play. Obviously some players are better than others, but with the right amount of practice and determination, you'll be able to do it to anybody.
Luigi can chain grab, tech chase and edge guard the spacies. Easier said than done, but it's still possible. Spacing and tilt abuse on sheik is crucial. Catch peach's turnips, smart edge guarding and good recovery can even out the peach match up. Falcon is more or less the same strategy as the spacies. Seperate the IC's and whoop them one by one.
All in all, since everyone plays those characters, you won't have too much to worry about after taking these strategies into play. Obviously some players are better than others, but with the right amount of practice and determination, you'll be able to do it to anybody.
coolhat
Smash Journeyman
Well said, and I think every Luigi player one point in their life has said, "if i can get close to winning with luigi, imagine how much i could rip people with FOX! I should switch!" But we're better then that, we just need to think a bit more and have a bit more knowledge of the game and levels. People hate luigi. I love his spot on the tier list, just makes it more enjoyable when u beat a high/top tier character.
Well said. I completely agree.
I enjoy a victory with Mr.L more than a victory with fox or sheik. For me when it comes down to it, it is all about fun. Luigi's is definitely one of the most fun characters in the game. I am proud to be a Luigi main.
Winston
Smash Master
Nobody gets what I'm saying, sure it may sound like a john, but that's not the point. I was only using my suckitude as an example, in which average players vs other average players, and one of them's using luigi.
I'm not that good yet, and of course you can be really good as a luigi main, and if you are, more power to you. Just saying, that his spot on the tier list is accurate...
I'm not that good yet, and of course you can be really good as a luigi main, and if you are, more power to you. Just saying, that his spot on the tier list is accurate...