ThegreatVaporeon1
Smash Ace
Shiek is a harder matchup than Marth in my opinion, in both melee and PM.
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Luigi MU Chart (Now Discussing: Snake)
- Thread starter Muhti
- Start date
Shiek is a harder matchup than Marth in my opinion, in both melee and PM.
Scaremonger
Smash Apprentice
...due to how much endlag exists on his attacks? Can you tell me which moves you're talking about that have so much endlag? Like are you referring to his fair that's fast enough to use twice in one shorthop? Or maybe you were referring to his dtilt, which has a whopping 11 frames of lag. Really, I'm not sure where you're coming from with him having laggy attacks, unless you think a good Marth will be fsmashing out of neutral (lol).
Could be, I dunno. The really good Luigi mains I've talked to have said Marth, but they could have just been talking about preference. Regardless, Marth is definitely more difficult than spacies.
Broasty
Smash Journeyman
If my Marth opponent doesn't throw out that Fsmash, then I go for the shield slide grab. Marth isn't able to prevent you from grabbing via just attacks. Most Marth players I've played do stupid stuff like Fsmash a lot so I love to capitalize haha, especially if you REALLY make them think they can hit you with it. Heck, if you're able to shield DI during the slide (meaning during the shield hit lag from the assumed attack) towards him, you can pull off an OOS UpB and finish him. If there's any matchup I'd worry about as Luigi...it's Zero Suit due to the only approach being on ground which can freely be covered by a blaster shot.
Scaremonger
Smash Apprentice
I feel like you're basing your entire opinion of the Marth matchup on the idea that the Marth player is going to be really, really stupid/scrubby. A halfway decent Marth will almost never randomly throw out fsmashes like that.
Broasty
Smash Journeyman
You make a valid point in regards to Marth players.
Scaremonger
Smash Apprentice
Not sure what that's supposed to mean, but okay lol.
Broasty
Smash Journeyman
I'm saying you're right...what people can't admit they were wrong haha
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OnFullTilt
Smash Apprentice
So I've found what I feel are some useful tricks against Ness. Though dodging Ness's aerial PK fires isn't too hard with Luigi's mobility I was having a hard time avoiding the grounded ones. I ended up finding out that 1) you can set off the PK Fire with your fireball. His projectile is faster than yours so if you both keep spamming the fire will eventually reach you. This is still useful for dealing with individual PK Fires though. 2) Wavedashing in with your shield up makes it so that you can buffer a roll away if he PK Fires you and 3) if you want to approach him when he's tossing his grounded projectile you can wavedash spotdodge through it and then do whatever while he has to deal with endlag.
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ThegreatVaporeon1
Smash Ace
Marth, Sheik, and Zelda are probably the green blur's hardest matchups. You have to play extremely well and patient in these scenarios
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OnFullTilt
Smash Apprentice
Yeah, aside from some cheeky misfire punishes on Marth FSmash it doesn't seem easy. That does bring up a point though- if a Marth is trying to FSmash edgeguard you it is sometimes possible to psyche him out into wiffing FSmash which then may let you misfire or DJ misfire if you sunk low to avoid it. Against Zelda USmash seems great considering her floatiness. A reverse USmash on either a grounded or aerial Zelda seems like it could be good, especially since the move has some invincibility frames on Luigi's head. Against sheik I don't know of much, but you can Down B to approach through single needles and WD -> Ftilt seems important. For all three though it does seem like you have to be quite careful.
Cubelarooso
Smash Lord
Dsmash is like the best thing against Zelda. Below her is the only safe place and should be your constant goal; when you're not, stay low as a lot of her attacks don't reach the ground (Most importantly Heels. Luigi is like the perfect heel target.). Cyclone also won't clank with DF's on the floor. That's why I think Dsmash is like the best thing against Zelda.
Beware that Din's Fires can stop Green Missile, but she's also a sitting duck for Misfires while casting them. Just don't use it from to far away, or she can Nayru's before you reach her. Nayru's in general can be problematic; its range and duration are deceptive and must be learned (Debug plz), but it is vulnerable vertically (for Luigi, this means from below).
It's good to have a hitbox out when she Farore's, just in case she tries to telefrag. Even better if you actively try to read her destination. Utilt and Cyclone are good if you're not comfortable with the timing, but Usmash/Dsmash/Nair are ideal. Up-B if you're ballsy.
Not sure you should bother trying to SDI stuff. Except DF's, as they can occasionally be used advantageously to recover.
I wouldn't trust aerials against her, so no Fair/Dair to kill. Just try to combo into Nair or Usmash, or catch her endlag with Usmash or Up-B, or surprise Usmash. For floaty characters like her, know you can Dthrow>Nair if she doesn't DI, but you lose that at real high percents so don't waste it.
Beware that Din's Fires can stop Green Missile, but she's also a sitting duck for Misfires while casting them. Just don't use it from to far away, or she can Nayru's before you reach her. Nayru's in general can be problematic; its range and duration are deceptive and must be learned (Debug plz), but it is vulnerable vertically (for Luigi, this means from below).
It's good to have a hitbox out when she Farore's, just in case she tries to telefrag. Even better if you actively try to read her destination. Utilt and Cyclone are good if you're not comfortable with the timing, but Usmash/Dsmash/Nair are ideal. Up-B if you're ballsy.
Not sure you should bother trying to SDI stuff. Except DF's, as they can occasionally be used advantageously to recover.
I wouldn't trust aerials against her, so no Fair/Dair to kill. Just try to combo into Nair or Usmash, or catch her endlag with Usmash or Up-B, or surprise Usmash. For floaty characters like her, know you can Dthrow>Nair if she doesn't DI, but you lose that at real high percents so don't waste it.
Lime Cultivist
Smash Apprentice
I'd say it's relatively even vs GW, maybe a tiny bit in GW's favor. I play both of them - my friends don't, so I haven't actually played the matchup, but that's what I'd say. Also, sword characters generally have a good matchup against Luigi.
ThegreatVaporeon1
Smash Ace
It's in gnw's favor. Pretty heavily too. His tilts and aerials outspace luigi, making him hard to approach and gnw edgeguards luigi for free. We also can't do much against bacon. Fireball camping will just make him bucket. It's actually akin to the marth matchup when it comes to spacing, but not as bad imo.
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ThegreatVaporeon1
Smash Ace
Does anyone else think Bowser Luigi is even? I really don't think it's in Luigi's favor, and if it is, its very slight.
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OnFullTilt
Smash Apprentice
I haven't faced a good Bowser to be honest. I have played AS bowser for a while so I can say that Bowser does have some tools to keep Luigi out. His forward air, forward tilt, and flame cancel can theoretically keep Luigi away, while his grounded up B and armor could punish Luigi for getting close. That being said Bowser is combo food and Luigi is great at combos. Due to his size Bowser is also susceptible to whatever jank Luigi throws his way, including combos into misfire, or even an Up B punish. Finally some of Bowser's moves are pretty laggy and Luigi can get in and punish him for that. I remember a set of a high level Luigi Vs. a high level Bowser in which the Luigi excelled- here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDbOAEKS270
Since I haven't faced a good Bowser all I could judge about who wins would be based on theorycrafting unfortunately.
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Cubelarooso
Smash Lord
Mr. Game & Watch is pretty even. His attacks have enough lag both before and after to get in easy. Bacon isn't really a problem as it mostly covered the air, and while you certainly can't camp with Fireballs, throwing just one to break G&W's flow is no problem. Everyone edgeguards Luigi for free, G&W's isn't anything special.
On the other hand, his techs and stuff are huge targets for Misfire/Up-B, he's at the perfect Dthrow followup gravity, and he doesn't have much besides Fire - which leaves him in a poor position - to escape combos. Besides all that, he's a character with reasonable strengths and weaknesses and isn't that hard to deal with.
I don't think Marth is that bad either, but I haven't as extensive experience with any.
On the other hand, his techs and stuff are huge targets for Misfire/Up-B, he's at the perfect Dthrow followup gravity, and he doesn't have much besides Fire - which leaves him in a poor position - to escape combos. Besides all that, he's a character with reasonable strengths and weaknesses and isn't that hard to deal with.
I don't think Marth is that bad either, but I haven't as extensive experience with any.
Broasty
Smash Journeyman
In progress of making a chain grab excel sheet, so far I can tell you that with the help of JC Grabs, you can chain grab the living crap outta Bowser. I've yet to start data collection on G&W, so I don't have any to add on that lol(yet). Also, based on Brawl Box, the only attack Luigi is invincible on is the first couple frames of UpB.
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OnFullTilt
Smash Apprentice
Wow, that end bit may make it even more viable to up b oos than I thought, thanks for the information. I thought though that during the up smash Luigi's head was invincible on certain frames? Also thanks for the excel sheet idea- chain grabs are an area of my game that I should step up.
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ThegreatVaporeon1
Smash Ace
I've played Jorge's bowser, and the best Bowser in my state and I struggle with that matchup..mainly because I don't really know how to deal with him when I'm on the ledge or offstage (Bowser's mainly go for a down b from ledge to stop you from sweetspotting with side b or up b...but yeah luigi combos bowser hard. It's just that he's light and gets killed easily with bowser's strong attacks. I still think this matchup is 55:45 luigi. But that's it.
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OnFullTilt
Smash Apprentice
Seems like the key here is faking him out by stalling and recovering low. You can do this with the down b, but the better solution seems to be saving the double jump which would then give you the option to either up b immediately or DJ and then up b. I don't think Bowser has any quick aerials that could deal with both options that wouldn't simply kill him. By the way, I feel that Up B'ing Bowser himself is something that should be done occasionally as he is more susceptible to that than any other character I believe. I could imagine the matchup being close though due to Bowser snuffing a lot of Luigi's WD options and possibly armoring even when Luigi gets in.
If you're on the ledge and can't get on the stage just Ledgedash with invincibility.
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Broasty
Smash Journeyman
One thing is for sure based off what I've found (and used in matches). Chain Grabs are VERY MUCH slept on for Luigi, you really would be surprised what kind of Tech Chase he's capable of.
Something worth noting is that Luigi's hardest parts of the match is getting the opponent past CC'able percent, since it causes the Trade off for damage to not be in Luigi's favor. As such, going for the grab is really your best opponent against a lot of the matchups if you don't have enough space to Fire Ball.
Speaking of which, we're a community, let's work together. Can someone start working on an Excel sheet on what percents range you can get the opponent out of CC? Even if it's with like, one attack, like DSmash, USmash, or even Nair...perhaps all 3 if your really want to go the extra mile. That'd really help the meta development of our dawg.
OnFullTilt
Smash Apprentice
Maybe make it a Google doc? I'll try to contribute some when I have time. FTilt is a very important poke move that often gets cced, so maybe that should be considered too.
Broasty
Smash Journeyman
I strongly agree, I'd just stick to Middle FTilt though, Upper and Lower can be predicted with experience unless someone REALLY wants to take it to a whole new level.
OnFullTilt
Smash Apprentice
Speaking of that google doc, here it is: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QSpmm2quQ7q4bGd_ADklnn3a1iY-tgtEhJrnL99D0n8/edit .
Currently anyone can edit it so feel free to do so. I've entered a few values- please tell me if I'm doing something wrong somehow.
Currently anyone can edit it so feel free to do so. I've entered a few values- please tell me if I'm doing something wrong somehow.
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Cubelarooso
Smash Lord
I did the thing. Should be more convenient then doing it manually. It was a lot of work simply because my PSA didn't read BKB correctly.
Some notes:
Might be a percent off here-and-there due to rounding, but looks good to me.
While staling doesn't affect knockback (hence CC), it does affect damage, and knockback is based on damage after the hit. This table lists damages before the hit, and assumes freshness.
361° refers to the Sakurai angle, for those unfamiliar.
Bowser might be wrong due to magic.
Jabs 1&2 and dtilt discluded since they have fixed knockback.
Utilt discluded since it has like a billion different hitboxes.
Fireball discluded because I don't know how to get that.
Missile and Up-B discluded because don't do that unless it will kill. They'd shield Missile, anyway.
All of the hitboxes on prone- and supine-getup-attacks are the same, except one on each hit of prone that has fixed knockback. Dunno if that's an oversight.
Likewise, trip-getup-attack is identical except does 1 less damage. Dunno if that's standard.
The inner hit of <100% ledge-attack actually only deals 6 damage.
It might be useful to highlight which attacks (Usmash mostly) are liable to whiff whose crouches.
Feel welcome to improve formatting. I think there's a way to have certain rows/columns always-visible.
Some notes:
Might be a percent off here-and-there due to rounding, but looks good to me.
While staling doesn't affect knockback (hence CC), it does affect damage, and knockback is based on damage after the hit. This table lists damages before the hit, and assumes freshness.
361° refers to the Sakurai angle, for those unfamiliar.
Bowser might be wrong due to magic.
Jabs 1&2 and dtilt discluded since they have fixed knockback.
Utilt discluded since it has like a billion different hitboxes.
Fireball discluded because I don't know how to get that.
Missile and Up-B discluded because don't do that unless it will kill. They'd shield Missile, anyway.
All of the hitboxes on prone- and supine-getup-attacks are the same, except one on each hit of prone that has fixed knockback. Dunno if that's an oversight.
Likewise, trip-getup-attack is identical except does 1 less damage. Dunno if that's standard.
The inner hit of <100% ledge-attack actually only deals 6 damage.
It might be useful to highlight which attacks (Usmash mostly) are liable to whiff whose crouches.
Feel welcome to improve formatting. I think there's a way to have certain rows/columns always-visible.
OnFullTilt
Smash Apprentice
Oh geez this pretty much blows what we were trying to do out of the water haha. Thanks for doing this Cubelarooso! When I have time I'll see if I can manually do the fireball data and double check the Bowser data.
Broasty
Smash Journeyman
Wow dude, wow. Dude, great freaking job. This helps SO much, now there's a literally Science to it, I'll see if I can find some easy patterns to put together that may make the really early CC breaks easier to remember.
Almost done with the initial data for Chain Grabs (no DI) btw, I'll release it as soon as I'm done.
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OnFullTilt
Smash Apprentice
From the bit of testing I did it's way more dependent on weight than fall speed. Just compare Samus (who is heavy but falls slowly) to Fox (who is light but falls quickly) to see what I mean.
Broasty
Smash Journeyman
I'm looking to put together a sort of "Class" system to describe the chain grab patterns to group characters of the same pattern (but different thresholds). That'd be pretty cool if it actually describes the CC break points pretty well too.
Cubelarooso
Smash Lord
I believe throw knockback (but not always speed, which includes lag) is independent of weight, and I know CC is independent of fall-speed.
I haven't checked, but since Bowser's crouch-armor threshold is 80 knockbacks, it should break the moment a CC would. On that note, I think I'll put lines in for Bowser/Squirtle's armors. (Just did it and wow! Huge BKB makes getup/ledge attacks murder light armor.)
Also, I'm wondering if it would be better to know the values assuming complete freshness, or complete staleness?
I haven't checked, but since Bowser's crouch-armor threshold is 80 knockbacks, it should break the moment a CC would. On that note, I think I'll put lines in for Bowser/Squirtle's armors. (Just did it and wow! Huge BKB makes getup/ledge attacks murder light armor.)
Also, I'm wondering if it would be better to know the values assuming complete freshness, or complete staleness?
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Broasty
Smash Journeyman
Freshness. A good Luigi never spams since a predictable Luigi is a dead Luigi.
Dunno if any of you noticed this, but something interesting I learned from working on that Chain Grab data is that the size of the character determines the speed of the throw animation and the best way to determine the timing for frame perfect follow ups is feeling the rumble pulse and stop.
OnFullTilt
Smash Apprentice
I've heard it was the weight of a character that determined throw speed and not the size. Coincidentally most of the heavy characters are also large. Since Bowser is so heavy and it takes Fox so long to regain control after throwing him, Bowser is one of the few characters that Fox can't up throw up air in Melee. I guess if you want to test the whole size thing I'd try throwing both Zelda and Samus as they are about the same size but weigh fairly differently.
Broasty
Smash Journeyman
Consider how fast Fox falls...now compare the throw animation speed of Fox vs. Bowser, you'll see what I mean.
OnFullTilt
Smash Apprentice
Well as I said it's mostly based on weight- size and fall speed don't really get factored in. Fox is one of the lightest characters in the entire game, whereas Bowser is one of the heaviest. As a result the throw animation speed is way slower for Bowser.
Broasty
Smash Journeyman
Makes sense to me.
shapular
Smash Ace
More like Luigi gets back to the stage from literally anywhere for free. You know it's true, Vape.
Broasty
Smash Journeyman
Last night I realized Bowser vs. Luigi is not a fun day for Bowser. Wiff Punish->DThrow CG til 76%->Dthrow->Shoruken. Similar situation with Ganondorf, seems to the key is to either fireball with distance and Grab whenever you can so you can CG/tech chase him til about 60%.
ThegreatVaporeon1
Smash Ace
I think bowser is able to get out of that CG if he DI's properly. Bowser just has the range and edgeguard tools to keep Luigi away. Not to mention that Luigi is light and dies early to bowser's strong hits. Fireballs dont do anything considering he can just armor them/powershield them (with his huge shield). The best option vs bowser is to keep him in the air and combo him, while also going for wavedash grabs. I mean the matchup is in Luigi's favor, but I think its close to even.
Also I find ganon beats Luigi.
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ThegreatVaporeon1
Smash Ace
Except he doesn't. It's very easy to gimp Luigi's recovery. As soon as he rises with tornado, knock him back further, he'll try to come back with a jump, hit him when he jumps away from the stage, and he'll lose it, causing him to have only his up b to rely on, which you can easily edgehog/punish.
ThegreatVaporeon1
Smash Ace
Don't know how to delete my post 
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