Lucina: Perfect Pivot Mechanic and Applications

[CommanderRin]

New spacing technology for a spacing character!

So what we're seeing in this video seems to be something with almost the exact same functionality of wavedashing!

I want to see us apply this new tech with our beloved Lucina, I'm positive that with a new tool like this one, we can help Lucina rise through the ranks.

Currently, I've bee practicing getting the perfect pivot consistently, and it isn't actually too difficult to do.
Once you start getting the timing down, you can reliably pull it off, though I don't recommend trying it in serious match until you're confident in that you won't mess up and start dashing all over the place

Perfect Pivot -> Shield Breaker is my current favorite, allows me to perfect pivot away from an opponents attack and punish from afar (Shield Breaker has the longest reach of any of her attacks huehue).

 

[Robertman2]

Oooh... Hyped.

 

[CommanderRin]

So I just started messing around with this.

Pretty hard to do a first, what you're trying to do is pivot as soon as the initial dash animation starts.

If you go on training mode and set it to 1/4 speed, you have to pivot as soon as Lucina lurches forward (bends over to start dashing).

Takes a while to get a feel for it, I still mess up quite a bit.

 

[Wintropy]

What, if any, are the practical applications of this tech?

Bear in mind I didn't know that wavedashing was a thing, much less how to do it, until I joined these forums ahaha~

 

[Locuan]

Hey there @ CommanderRin . Normally, I would have thought to move this to the video thread, since you are only linking the video. However, it would be great if you used the thread as a means to discuss Lucina's Perfect Pivot applications. Do you think you can edit the OP in order to indicate this?

 

[Duet]

I was messing around with lucinas perfect pivot yesterday. The only real benefits I see as far as attacking goes is down smash, neutral B, and her tilts. A lot of her attacks halt momentum regardless of what you are doing, can be done out of a dash without the tech, or both. But of course, I am not innovator or expert on this kind of stuff, and I am terrible at even applying the tech in an actual battle to begin with so I am sure that someone more creative than I am may be able to come up with something useful.

 

[Daybreak]

I have this down for the most part, it's easier for me to go left than right for some reason. It's going to take a lot of muscle memory, but will become second nature at some point.

I see the Perfect-Pivot better for moves that keep your momentum, unless you want to bait them in with a forward smash. It has a lot of potential. Just remember you do not need it all the time since Lucina has a beast walking speed. There's a time and a place for it.

 

[Duet]

I have this down for the most part, it's easier for me to go left than right for some reason.

I was having this issue too.

 

[Daybreak]

I was having this issue too.

Right? I'm not sure if it is just my muscle memory or what. I have been looking into it as of recent, and testing different ways of Perfect-Pivot. Hopefully it just comes back to practice

 

[EternalFlame]

Hmm, the perfect pivot has its applications towards more defensive plays than offensive. You can use this to space yourself from your opponent when they go for grabs or aerial attacks, since they probably don't expect you to move other than dodging, which gives them time to recover from their approach choice. If you can master perfect pivoting, you'll be able to punish their attacks with any attack that you can do from neutral position, which includes FSmash/USmash.

Now I'm still learning to do this efficiently myself, but from my understanding, those are it's main applications.

EDIT: Oh, I forgot to mention too, but the video does demonstraight that you can position yourself a little closer and use stuff like your USmash to catch your opponents. The distance you cover with it while entering your neutral position soon would be a bit more benefitial towards doing this over fox trotting into position for certain situations.

 

[Duet]

Thing about it is, there is a buffer on lucinas dash where you can input a forward smash without the tech and move about the same distance without the tech. I can literally run right up to someone, dash dance a bit and immediately go into an Fsmash if I am not playing online with the input lag, so the tech is pretty much useless as far as Fsmash goes. The app for perfect pivoting seems to be way more beneficial towards setting your C stick to do tilts over smash attacks, since the only smash that it is really useful for is Dsmash, and that is going to be fairly hard to land reliably regardless.

 

[EternalFlame]

Thing about it is, there is a buffer on lucinas dash where you can input a forward smash without the tech and move about the same distance without the tech. I can literally run right up to someone, dash dance a bit and immediately go into an Fsmash if I am not playing online with the input lag, so the tech is pretty much useless as far as Fsmash goes. The app for perfect pivoting seems to be way more beneficial towards setting your C stick to do tilts over smash attacks, since the only smash that it is really useful for is Dsmash, and that is going to be fairly hard to land reliably regardless.

That's pretty much the fox trotting method to getting the FSmash/spacing xD Remember that its primary function is defensive over offensive, so you're waiting for them to come to you and you counterattack. And Lucina's USmash is more efficient since it pulls targets from both sides into her blade on the point of activation over DSmash's swing infront then behind method. Though you make a good point that tilts would benefit from this movement too xD

 

[Duet]

You can do a retreating Fsmash within a dash attack in the opposite direction during the first few frames of the dash as well, the example was just an offensive one. It is like this for every character. It might just be the way the fsmashes buffer though.

Edit: The more I mess around with it though, it seems like the perfect pivot gives about 25% more distance than what I was referring to if you get them both frame perfect.

 

[EternalFlame]

You can do a retreating Fsmash within a dash attack in the opposite direction during the first few frames of the dash as well, the example was just an offensive one. It is like this for every character. It might just be the way the fsmashes buffer though, causing it to do an innate perfect pivot, because I am messing around with it in training right now and doing a perfect pivot into smash attack, and a dash immediately into an fmash both with the control stick and c stick accomplish the same thing that perfect pivoting in that direction would have accomplished.

A retreating FSmash is as you said, is like a perfect pivot to it. But since perfect pivot resets you to neutral, like your other point, is that it can be used to go into stuff like tilts and such. The perfect pivoting is just one efficient means of getting out of the way and quickly retaliate with whichever is most ideal for the situation. That reset to neutral + the turn around + the slide is what the really benefits its movement. I cannot elaborate on the C Stick's usage however, though at least the movement option will be great for those who do not use it. Also, how people will use it will be dependent on their playstyle, as I sense your playstyle prefers to agro over waiting for your opponent to act first. However, I can only guess, since even I do not use it as effectively as I have outlined it - its only based on an analysis from the video's application of the movement xD

 

[A user name]

Has anyone tested to make sure that Lucina's perfect pivot actually covers more distance than Marth's? If so, does anyone know what would cause her to have a longer perfect pivot? Seems to me they should be identical.

 

[Locuan]

Has anyone tested to make sure that Lucina's perfect pivot actually covers more distance than Marth's? If so, does anyone know what would cause her to have a longer perfect pivot? Seems to me they should be identical.

If I get the time Ill try and test it out tonight. Ill get back to you guys if I see any differences.

 

[CommanderRin]

Hey there @ CommanderRin . Normally, I would have thought to move this to the video thread, since you are only linking the video. However, it would be great if you used the thread as a means to discuss Lucina's Perfect Pivot applications. Do you think you can edit the OP in order to indicate this?

I could tryyyyyyy

Wish me luck ;3;

 

[Locuan]

Well, I am probably not performing the perfect pivot at the optimal timing to get the most momentum. However, if any of you would like to test with my parameters:

1. 3DS version (Its what I had available at the moment.)
2. Green Hill Zone FD version.
3. Stand at the rightmost area of the stage.
4. Perform perfect pivot from left to right.
5. Count the amount of squares traversed on the floor.

I tested both characters and I could not get either to traverse a bit more than 3.5 squares. For this reason, I want to assume I am wrong until someone else is able to confirm my tests. Im going to test it out on the Wii U version tomorrow to rule out any controller limitations due to the 3DS. On the other hand, if any of you could test with my parameters on the 3DS and confirm or deny my observations that would be great.

 

[Duet]

From what I can tell, they go the same distance.

Here is some amazing video proof filmed after years of painstaking tests using a masterfully crafted custom level specifically for testing purposes. In this test, I even made sure to use the same training buddy in king dedede, because as we all know, 2 objects with mass attract one another, and I wanted to make sure Dededes gravitational pull didn't have an unfair advantage if he had been only used in one test.


http://youtu.be/f9Q06ApSwI4


http://youtu.be/_wBAKugmq1c

 

[LIQUID12A]

Perfect pivoting into a smash attack is interesting. I've only mastered forward smash until now.

 

[Daybreak]

For those off you who are learning and are getting frustrated with going left( or right ) it really all comes down to practice. At first my thumb felt really weird and did not want to go that way, but now it has gotten a lot easier. Muscle memory does the work if you strive for it.

Practice, practice, practice!

Using perfect-pivot with shield-breaker is amazing. Especially when you use it as soon as you start the perfect-pivot; your momentum carries easier and spaces you back nicely. A great punish option

 

[CommanderRin]

I'm wondering if I should change my C-stick to tilts instead of smash.

It's hard to do a tilt out of perfect pivot, much harder than it would be to use a smash attack

 

[Diana's Safe Landing]

It's a really good spacing tool by itself, as in you can use it without an attack. If you are ever standing its a far better way to retreat and punish moves than rolling because its quicker. The biggest flaw of this technique is you can't use it out of a run, but shield releases are very fast in this game and you can shield out of a run. Dash --> Shield --> Shield Release --> Perfect Pivot is a very strong way to manipulate space.

 

[MaximalGFX]

I have this down for the most part, it's easier for me to go left than right for some reason. It's going to take a lot of muscle memory, but will become second nature at some point.

I see the Perfect-Pivot better for moves that keep your momentum, unless you want to bait them in with a forward smash. It has a lot of potential. Just remember you do not need it all the time since Lucina has a beast walking speed. There's a time and a place for it.

Yeah! Going left is super easy, but for some reasons going right is the hardest thing for me.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

So according to Izaw's Perfect Pivoting video (Lucina featured at 16:00), Lucina's PPivot retains momentum on her Utilt better than Marth's does.

Is this just another case of poor testing? Granted if this is true, I don't think it'll mean much but hey, it'd be something.

 

[Gidy]

I find it funny that Lucina wasn't exactly made to be a spacing character but is better at it then the character that was built around it.

Well, RIP Marth. See you in Smash 5

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

I find it funny that Lucina wasn't exactly made to be a spacing character but is better at it then the character that was built around it.

Well, RIP Marth. See you in Smash 5

In anycase, first steps taken to own golden road.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I find it funny that Lucina wasn't exactly made to be a spacing character but is better at it then the character that was built around it.

Well, RIP Marth. See you in Smash 5

You don't know **** about Lucina clearly.

 

[Gidy]

You don't know **** about Lucina clearly.

She wasn't. What makes her and Marth different are the tipper effects. They gave Marth a shorter sword and a smaller tipper hitbox making spacing rewarding but hard as hell when fighting balls off the walls fast characters like Diddy Kong or Sonic. Lucina CAN space and her rewards are indeed there for it, but the better way to play her, in my opinion, is to just go in.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You don't know here data. She is punished even more so for bad spacing then Marth is.

Going in with her will get you mauled.

There is nothing about her that suggest going in is optimal.

If the perfect pivot is better with her than more power to her. She needs all the ammo she can get.

 

[Gidy]

You don't know here data. She is punished even more so for bad spacing then Marth is.

Going in with her will get you mauled.

There is nothing about her that suggest going in is optimal.

If the perfect pivot is better with her than more power to her. She needs all the ammo she can get.

Care for a 1v1?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Is us playing a 1v1 gonna magically change her hitlag modifier from 1.0 to 0.7?

I'm talking straight up numbers.

What does that got to do with us playing?

Please break it down for me.

 

[Gidy]

Is us playing a 1v1 gonna magically change her hitlag modifier from 1.0 to 0.7?

I'm talking straight up numbers.

What does that got to do with us playing?

Please break it down for me.

If you use Lucina I could better understand your point on how to play Lucina.

 

[Locuan]

@ Gidy with all due respect, at the end of the day, Marth has mathematical properties written in the code that give him the advantage. As @ Emblem Lord and a lot of others have said there are many key factors that make Marth the superior character. There is a whole thread pinned to the Lucina boards that highlight their differences and similarities. It also includes their differences in hitlag modifiers, knockback values, damage etc.

I am sorry to say that the math/data is against you Gidy. Both are spacing characters, rushing down opponents means you risk messing up your spacing and you will get punished by it. More so in Lucina's case since her hitlag modifier is x1.0 while Marth's is x0.7. As a Lucina main I would have loved for both characters to have their own mechanics that would make both stand on equal footing. If you for some reason have found that the data that has been posted before, and verified by many, is incorrect feel free to point it out and back up your claims. If this for some reason ends up being the case, we will clearly adapt and modify our views just as any investigator/scientist would if data that trumps their previously established law or theory surfaces. I am sorry if this seems harsh but it has to be said.

As a note to everyone, I normally evade Marth vs. Lucina conversations, but I do not want misinformation. This will give people the wrong idea of both characters and we need the correct information to reach the eyes of everyone if we want to advance the meta-games of both Marth and Lucina. I also want this thread to remain our go to resource when discussing perfect pivoting in Lucina's gameplay and any applications that may arise from it. I will say this, if this derails any further into Marth vs. Lucina discussion I will be forced to lock this thread for the time being in order to evade any future problems that may arise. This is precisely the reason we have the pinned thread that highlights the differences of both characters.

EDIT:

So according to Izaw's Perfect Pivoting video (Lucina featured at 16:00), Lucina's PPivot retains momentum on her Utilt better than Marth's does.

Is this just another case of poor testing? Granted if this is true, I don't think it'll mean much but hey, it'd be something.

I tested it out yesterday and try as I might, Lucina was able to retain momentum on her U-tilt better. So I believe the testing was done correctly by Izaw and others who might have performed the test as well.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Good **** for her then. Was it just u-tilt though? Did you test other moves? I would test it myself but honestly I told myself no Smash for Christmas. Gonna catch up on my other games.

 

[Locuan]

Good **** for her then. Was it just u-tilt though? Did you test other moves? I would test it myself but honestly I told myself no Smash for Christmas. Gonna catch up on my other games.

Jab is worth noting but Im not sure on this one. This requires more testing. The other moves seem to retain the same momentum showed by Marth. The only one with the clear difference is Utilt. I would test a bit more myself but Im caught up on family Christmas matters.

 

[Nobie]

@ Gidy

I tested it out yesterday and try as I might, Lucina was able to retain momentum on her U-tilt better. So I believe the testing was done correctly by Izaw and others who might have performed the test as well.

This is fascinating. There has to be something about Lucina that causes this, and I have to wonder if it subtly affects other aspects of her character.

 

[Locuan]

This is fascinating. There has to be something about Lucina that causes this, and I have to wonder if it subtly affects other aspects of her character.

I have been wondering about that myself. From a programming perspective, there must be something in the code that is making this difference pop up. Now trying to figure out what that difference is has been bothering me so much these past few days. It's pretty much speculation at this point.

Implementing perfect pivot up-tilts with Lucina into your game is actually very good. While in a match, I used it against a Shiek player who was approaching with Fair, and the perfect pivot back into Utilt allowed me to place my opponent into the air and force the juggle. It's a very good tool to have in Lucina's arsenal.

 

[LucinaNab1]

This seems like a good thing to work on to improve my game. My question is, how far do I have to tilt the joystick in the first direction before flicking it in the intended direction I want to move? Is it far enough to perform a tilt? I've tried doing this, but I just end up dash dancing in place, which leads me to believe my first of the two inputs is going too far. I'm not good with things like these, just getting the timing down would be hard enough, let alone adding an attack to it.

 

[CommanderRin]

This seems like a good thing to work on to improve my game. My question is, how far do I have to tilt the joystick in the first direction before flicking it in the intended direction I want to move? Is it far enough to perform a tilt? I've tried doing this, but I just end up dash dancing in place, which leads me to believe my first of the two inputs is going too far. I'm not good with things like these, just getting the timing down would be hard enough, let alone adding an attack to it.

Almost instantly, can't really explain the timing specifically, but you turn as soon as you see your initial dash animation (give or take).

Practice when you've got time, good luck