Lucina Can Ken Combo! Chars. She Can Do It To! Percents! Etc.

[MLSword]

Another thing I might add to this (and others probably know it by now):

This isn't air tight, but I was experimenting with the dodge cancel tech found recently, and I've found that SH Air dodge sets up the falling uair timing perfectly, and it's a safe(?) approach. So I guess that's another way to start the Ken string. Bait out a move, SH Dodge through it, and punish with the string.

I will test this when I get back from school.

 

[Toonfish]

EDIT: Disregard what I said earlier, I'm blind.

Nice find OP

 

[Random4811]

Do you know if there is a incredible difference between Lucinas Dair and Marths tipper Dair? I seem to be able to get a mock Ken Combo earlier as Marth (for example, on Bowser, I've managed to do it around 40% as Marth.) As a Marth main, I'm just curious because I like Lucina as a character (though personally I think Marth beats her out, thats a debate for another thread) and would like to try to atleast make her a teritary character for me.

 

[The21stSmasher]

Wow, really!? That's awesome! Good thing I use her.

 

[MLSword]

Do you know if there is a incredible difference between Lucinas Dair and Marths tipper Dair? I seem to be able to get a mock Ken Combo earlier as Marth (for example, on Bowser, I've managed to do it around 40% as Marth.) As a Marth main, I'm just curious because I like Lucina as a character (though personally I think Marth beats her out, thats a debate for another thread) and would like to try to atleast make her a teritary character for me.

There is no difference between the dair, both spike at the tip at the bottom of the dair.

 

[Random4811]

There is no difference between the dair, both spike at the tip at the bottom of the dair.

I meant damage/knock back at lower percentages wise, do you know if there is any notable difference. If not, thats pretty cool for Lucina.

 

[Sol0ke]

Her dair meteor smashes for the entire duration of the move, unlike Marth's.

 

[CommanderRin]

Vini, vidi, vici

I was so excited that I pulled out my 3DS in class and started doing this.

Feels so good to be able to do this hahaha

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

I don't get why so many Lucina players seem to hate Marth. Did you Ken Combo using any tippers with Marth? I highly doubt using tippers in the Ken Combo will KO at a higher % than Lucina.

 

[MLSword]

I don't get why so many Lucina players seem to hate Marth. Did you Ken Combo using any tippers with Marth? I highly doubt using tippers in the Ken Combo will KO at a higher % than Lucina.

Tippers send the character too far away, though Marth CAN do it, it is much easier for Lucina to do it. Also we don't hate Marth (I am a Marth main in every other game XD ) I think it is just more of us being tired of some Marth players talking about Lucina like she is complete trash. Which she is not

 

[Icyie]

I actually find it much easier to do this with marth, sourspotting the fair gets you in position for the dair more easily.

 

[MLSword]

I actually find it much easier to do this with marth, sourspotting the fair gets you in position for the dair more easily.

What I mean is since Lucina doesn't have tippers or sour spots like Marth her spacing doesn't have to be as on point to get the Ken Combo, thus making it easier to do with her in a match against an actual opponent.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Tippers send the character too far away, though Marth CAN do it, it is much easier for Lucina to do it. Also we don't hate Marth (I am a Marth main in every other game XD ) I think it is just more of us being tired of some Marth players talking about Lucina like she is complete trash. Which she is not

Alright thanks for clearing things up on this "Marth vs Lucina war" I don't think she is complete trash,but I just think if your spacing is good enough Marth is a much better option, though Lucina is much easier to use and be aggressive with (which I guess makes her the better character).

 

[MLSword]

Alright thanks for clearing things up on this "Marth vs Lucina war" I don't think she is complete trash,but I just think if your spacing is good enough Marth is a much better option, though Lucina is much easier to use and be aggressive with (which I guess makes her the better character).

Truly I don't think that one is any better than the other, and it is really a preference of what style you want to play: More of a keep away spacing game or more of a risky aggressive hyper game.

 

[MLSword]

Well guys its been forever XD Right now I am gonna do a BIG update to the thread. So yeah

 

[Elegant]

"I feel bad for this. But it keeps happening and people aren't bothering to research/search for five and a half frikken seconds to get the answer said to them plain as day. I think I need to end up making a "The Unfortunate Truth of Lucina: Please Stop Asking" thread, but it would ultimately be very patronising to her players.

Marth is almost universally a better character in every scenario. I would not feel confident in saying he is superior in 100% of cases, I already know this is not true, but 90%+? Very likely. Is there reason to use Lucina in tournament over Marth? The answer is unfortunately no. Is she viable though? Of course she is, she has a winning character design and while her deficiencies separate them, their differences don't change how match ups are played at all and anything Marth can win, Lucina can in practise do so too.

The most crippling and objective difference is how their swords work, but it's a lot more drastic than just "oh tippers do more damage and kill earlier".
This is not necessarily obvious to people, but there's a property in this game called Hit Lag, that applies whenever an attack hits somebody or something, the length of hit lag is based on the % Damage of the attack and a scaling modifier. Marth's tipper attacks produce extra hit lag, just like Captain Falcon's knee, to exemplify hitting with their sweetspots, their modifier is above 1 (or above 100%). On the contrary, Marth's untippered attacks produce less hit lag, their modifier is below 1. In Brawl this was 130% on Tippers and 70% on non-tippers IIRC.
Now onto how hitting shields work. When an attack hits a shield, the hit lag the person in shield experiences does not consider the modifier, whilst the initiator still does. This means that Marth's untippered hits on shield are safer than they normally would be by several frames, whilst his tipper hits are less safe.
Lucina does not have this effect anywhere on her sword (I've tested tilts/jabs conclusively, I'd assume it's standard); her attacks have no hit lag modifiers whatsoever.
This means that Marth spacing poorly is safer on shield than Lucina spacing well on every single attack. The frame disadvantage received by tippers by Marth through hitlag are compensated by the still higher damage scaling with shield stun and shield knockback and ultimately still end up giving Marth higher frame advantages on shield with tippers than Lucina does as well.
So what does Lucina get for poorly spacing that Marth doesn't? 1% extra damage on average per hit and killing 10% or so earlier on Smash attacks. A rough estimate would be that Lucina's sword is 12.5% more potent on damage and knockback, while Marth's tippers are up to 25% more damage and knockback or BETTER, the kill differences between them when it comes to tipper forward smash is pretty disgusting.

While I cannot be [near] objective on the next point, I say it with confidence.
Combo ability difference is a load of crap. I've been playing Marth for close to a decade, I don't think about combos, I think about hit confirms into more hit confirms and acting as fast as possible out of my actions. Marth and Lucina are not combo heavy characters in this game, and this will not change. I hit people with forward air and through the hitconfirm know exactly where they're going to travel towards. When I hit people with tippers on Marth in combo strings it gives me even more breathing space/time to be in a position to reduce enemy options/guarantee successive hits, while weaker attacks can be punished on hit; this applies to Lucina as well. I really cannot begin to even understand any Smasher having a mindset on Marth or Lucina that involves knowing what percent things combo into each other perfectly, because that's just not how Smash Bros works at all, there are so many variables that exist already (enemy percent, move staling, rage, DI/Vectoring, Smash DI/Shuffling; good players have to react to these things) that something as minor as 10% more or less knockback requires no adjustments. If you think it does, you're not comfortable with Marth or Lucina in the first place at the skill required to succeed at high level.

So,
Is there any scenario Lucina is safer on shield than Marth? Literally never. I'm not sure about what people mean by being able to play more aggressively on Lucina, but I posit you this every time you hit a shield as Lucina and get punished, the same may not have happened on Marth.
Is there any scenario Lucina is safer on hit than Marth? Yes; but the window this matters is very small (mostly eradicated by the time any enemy is above 30%). Some moves very poorly spaced on hit may also be punishable for Marth in scenarios it wouldn't be for Lucina. Marth's jab is a low knockback move unless tippered, and for a wide array of percent isn't safe on hit (it eventually becomes something you can combo out of and is likely to trip), this is not as pronounced on Lucina, who can use her jab more liberally.
Is comboing with Lucina easier/more consistent? I would say no. Another technical point is that hitstun scales with knockback, and hence Marth's tippered attacks are producing more hit stun and hence more comboability than Lucina would, but as I mentioned in that big paragraph, it really doesn't and shouldn't matter."

Taken from a locked thread that I don't know what happened to, but I saved the text. Posted by Shaya I believe.

Its very cool that Lucina has a Ken Combo portion, but will that make up for all of the above?

 

[Elegant]

P.S. I really wanted to main Lucina but because of the above I don't know if I should =/

 

[MLSword]

P.S. I really wanted to main Lucina but because of the above I don't know if I should =/

Sigh, well I really don't won't to get into this argument ( inb4 thread becomes flame war ) but I have argued with Shaya on this exact post before. Lucina is safer on shield at certain points. For instance, if an enemy is at a very low shield, remember, that Lucina's mid and bottom part of the blade is stronger than Marths. Yes, I know that if a Marth spaces himself that he can get tippers which allows for more hitstun and shield stun and is positionally better and etc. However, if both had to hit with the bottom of the blade, Lucina's would do more damage and hitstun. A Marth, no matter how good they are, will not get a tipper every time they attack with Marth's sword. Yes, I agree with Shaya that Marth's tippers do give him a questionable advantage on Lucina, HOWEVER, there are situations where Lucina would be more preferable, and Lucina can take more use of the advantage she has after shield breaker hits a shield as she won't have to worry about only getting a tipper on shield to pressure it more. If a Marth could always get a tipper, Marth would probably be better. HOWEVER, no Marth no matter how good they are will always get a tipper. Now please, don't continue this topic further on this thread. I mean, its okay with what you posted and I got some more of my thoughts out, but I really don't want this thread to become spammed with arguments over the two. I rest my case here, and I don't want anyone else posting on that hot topic if you would please

 

[Folt]

I don't think the issue with Marth and Lucina regarding shield issues have to do with how many times you tip with the blade, but that Marth can act out of a shielded attack sooner because of his hitlag modifiers on both tipped and untipped attacks. It makes Marth unquestionably safer when the opponent shields his attacks and allows Marth to afford a bit of aggression.

Also, whoever said Lucina has the meteor hitbox for the entire duration of her dair: I've tested it and it's not true.

 

[Elegant]

Sigh, well I really don't won't to get into this argument ( inb4 thread becomes flame war ) but I have argued with Shaya on this exact post before. Lucina is safer on shield at certain points. For instance, if an enemy is at a very low shield, remember, that Lucina's mid and bottom part of the blade is stronger than Marths. Yes, I know that if a Marth spaces himself that he can get tippers which allows for more hitstun and shield stun and is positionally better and etc. However, if both had to hit with the bottom of the blade, Lucina's would do more damage and hitstun. A Marth, no matter how good they are, will not get a tipper every time they attack with Marth's sword. Yes, I agree with Shaya that Marth's tippers do give him a questionable advantage on Lucina, HOWEVER, there are situations where Lucina would be more preferable, and Lucina can take more use of the advantage she has after shield breaker hits a shield as she won't have to worry about only getting a tipper on shield to pressure it more. If a Marth could always get a tipper, Marth would probably be better. HOWEVER, no Marth no matter how good they are will always get a tipper. Now please, don't continue this topic further on this thread. I mean, its okay with what you posted and I got some more of my thoughts out, but I really don't want this thread to become spammed with arguments over the two. I rest my case here, and I don't want anyone else posting on that hot topic if you would please

So you say that you're completely done, and don't want me posting back because you don't want to deal with it? Coolio here we go anyways

"Lucina is safer on shield at certain points"
-This is true, but at a competitive standpoint where a pro player plays both Marth and Lucina and knows the ins and outs, this could be used. But on the otherhand, Marths spacing at a competitive standpoint is better than Lucina is a whole, as Lucina would have been punished due to OOS options by the opponent not letting their shield go so low.

"If both had to hit with the bottom of the blade"
-They never HAVE to hit with the bottom of the blade. Retreating Fair with Marth can cause the tipper to happen. Your scenario of this is if everyone is going fully forward.

"There are situations where Lucina would be more preferable"
-Yes and no. Matchupwise? I'm pretty sure that all matchups that are good for Marth COULD BE good for Lucina, and all matchups that are bad for Marth will be just as bad OR WORSE. Marth at a competitive level vs Opponent X, and Lucina at a competitive level vs Opponent X, Marth will always outperform.

 

[MLSword]

So you say that you're completely done, and don't want me posting back because you don't want to deal with it? Coolio here we go anyways

"Lucina is safer on shield at certain points"
-This is true, but at a competitive standpoint where a pro player plays both Marth and Lucina and knows the ins and outs, this could be used. But on the otherhand, Marths spacing at a competitive standpoint is better than Lucina is a whole, as Lucina would have been punished due to OOS options by the opponent not letting their shield go so low.

"If both had to hit with the bottom of the blade"
-They never HAVE to hit with the bottom of the blade. Retreating Fair with Marth can cause the tipper to happen. Your scenario of this is if everyone is going fully forward.

"There are situations where Lucina would be more preferable"
-Yes and no. Matchupwise? I'm pretty sure that all matchups that are good for Marth COULD BE good for Lucina, and all matchups that are bad for Marth will be just as bad OR WORSE. Marth at a competitive level vs Opponent X, and Lucina at a competitive level vs Opponent X, Marth will always outperform.

I would argue those points but like I stated, I will not argue it further.

 

[Elegant]

I would argue those points but like I stated, I will not argue it further.

Whatever makes you sleep better at night.

 

[CodeMasterHackerYear30XX]

Lucina has a shorter blade it seems like to me when comparing her to Marth. I figured out why level nines are non competitive. They are easy to throw off stage and kill. As oppose to actual players online. Some still easy to kill. I came to you seeking advice about going against Little Mack .

 

[Locuan]

Lucina has a shorter blade it seems like to me when comparing her to Marth. I figured out why level nines are non competitive. They are easy to throw off stage and kill. As oppose to actual players online. Some still easy to kill. I came to you seeking advice about going against Little Mack .

Hey there @ CodeMasterHackerYear30XX . First of all welcome to Smashboards and the Lucina boards. If you are interested in knowing the differences between Marth and Lucina please read the following thread. If you need help regarding certain match-ups, like your Little Mac question, please ask in the Lucina: Match-up Discussion Thread. If you have more general questions regarding Lucina's game play ask your questions on the Lucina General Thread. There is also the Lucina Boards Table of Contents that can point you in the right direction regarding any resources you may need.

On a general note, I'm taking the liberty of locking this thread. Lucina is not able to Ken Combo. It is something that is avoidable by either good DI, air dodges and the like. This will avoid misinformation in the future. If you have any questions regarding this decision please feel free to contact me via private conversation.