Lucas shield pressure options & ideas?

[Kipcom]

To be honest, out of all the options Lucas has, I think his shield pressure is absolutely superb and one of his greatest options. His forward air, neutral air, and down air are all really good options for pressuring opponents in their shields and shrinking it down for a shield poke, or even a shield break. Most importantly, his PSI Magnet along with those aerials make for deadly pressure.

Just a general ideas on what kind of pressure Lucas can do...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXpc2W510dE (This is a TAS video by 8adge, and this is an older version of PM, so I'm not exactly sure how much of this is even still remotely possible with 3.02).

How does one go about using Lucas with consistent shield pressure? We know it's entirely possible to shield poke/break a shield with Lucas from a single combo, as proven by our very own @NeonApophis with this:
http://gfycat.com/ComplexUnrealisticFallowdeer

Slowing down the image, I could definitely notice that K9 let go of his shield, so I think that if not for that, the shield would have broken
While I'm speaking of magnet and shield pressure from that, when doing a grounded magnet, is it better to jump afterwards with Tap Jump in order to follow up with an aerial/magnet or should I be using a button to jump after a grounded magnet?

For those who don't utilize Lucas shield pressure, here are a few options that I recommend:

• Magnet > Short Hop > Magnet > DJC Fair > repeat
• Short Hop > Nair > Magnet > Jump Cancelled Grab
• Magnet > Short Hop > Magnet > DJC Uair
• Magnet > Short Hop > Footstool > DJC Bair

Of course, any aerial should be L-cancelled so that you have less lag time on them.


I would love to hear more ideas from the rest of you and the best way to pull them off. Finally, how I can go about practicing how to do these consistently, considering doing Magnet to aerials feels different when doing it on an actual character as opposed to doing it in the air.

 

[Jamwa]

its all about the magnet footstall pkt2

 

[NeonApophis]

Multi magnet pressure is the best because there are no obvious gaps in the pressure that they can capitalize on, even if you don't do it perfectly, whereas doing an aerial gives them a clear time to roll or go for a shield grab. You can mix this up by holding the magnet occasionally or doing some aerials if you end up too far from the ground.
I've been doing stuff along the lines of: grounded magnet -> sh magnet -> DJC magnet (hold until you land) -> SH magnet -> DJC magnet (hold) -> SH magnet -> DJC fair. This is pretty safe and can be relatively consistent since you don't have to rely on having perfect multimagnet timing. You can also just do multimagnets once you get good at them.

This isn't exactly what I described above, but it shows the basic idea:
http://www.twitch.tv/azprojectmelee/b/541616673?t=3h26m54s

The timing is also different when hitting an opponent (or their shield), since you experience hitlag.

 

[Kipcom]

Multi magnet pressure is the best because there are no obvious gaps in the pressure that they can capitalize on, even if you don't do it perfectly, whereas doing an aerial gives them a clear time to roll or go for a shield grab. You can mix this up by holding the magnet occasionally or doing some aerials if you end up too far from the ground.
I've been doing stuff along the lines of: grounded magnet -> sh magnet -> DJC magnet (hold until you land) -> SH magnet -> DJC magnet (hold) -> SH magnet -> DJC fair. This is pretty safe and can be relatively consistent since you don't have to rely on having perfect multimagnet timing. You can also just do multimagnets once you get good at them.

This isn't exactly what I described above, but it shows the basic idea:
http://www.twitch.tv/azprojectmelee/b/541616673?t=3h26m54s

The timing is also different when hitting an opponent (or their shield), since you experience hitlag.

Honestly, it's because of you and 8adge that I even learned so much about Lucas's potential on eating shields.
I just have to ask though, do you jump during shield pressure with tap jump or no?
I can do either method off shields, but on a shield, it becomes harder to do both obviously from the hitlag. As I jump with tap jump after a magnet, I'll accidentally Neutral B or even Up B, where if I do a normal SH with Y/X, I flub the timing and can't get the next magnet out quick enough.

I'l definitely keep that new pressure idea in mind!

 

[NeonApophis]

I usually jump with Y if I'm going to do a magnet next and up if I'm going to do an aerial.

 

[Burnsy]

I am fairly sure that all that stuff in 8adges video is still possible. Lucas' offensive capabilities haven't changed much since then. Magnets repeat hitboxes got nerfed but just holding magnet on someone's sheild has always been a weak pressure option compared to more sophisticated alternatives. Repeat hitboxes are still useful for frametraps and mind games, though.

 

[Badge]

There are few changes relevant to the video from 2.5, the biggest being the Magnet nerf, i.e. less shield damage from Magnet (and slower repeating hitbox, but I don't think I used that). Of course DAir is also different, but the DAir usage in the TAS was more flashy than actually useful anyway.

To practice shieldpressure with hitlag you can either throw a starman onto the opponent in practice mode or use the walls in Shacow Moses Island. Both give you the same amount of hitlag as hitting a shield (or an opponent for that matter).

 

[Kipcom]

Well, I practiced my shield pressure a little yesterday (thanks for the Starman and Shadow Moses tip!) and ended up nearly eating an entire shield in an actual match until they dropped the shield and took the hit.

I'm surprised more Lucas mains haven't considered just how good Lucas is at withering down shields. Once I know I've perfected all types of shield pressure, It's going to be riskier for players to be defensive and try to punish approaches to their shield.

As for holding down Magnet on some people, I kind of find that risky as some characters can let go of shield, then crouch cancel with an attack quick enough to beat the constant magnet hitboxes. Ness's down tilt and Yoshi's down special come to mind, specifically. I'm sure there are other characters who can try to escape the hitboxes as well, but I guess it is a good way to scare some players into just staying in shield and not even going for a buffered roll. So I guess you're right about it being a good mind game tactics, Burnsy.

 

[Burnsy]

Well, I didn't really mean just holding it endlessly on someone who doesn't know their options when I mentioned mindgames.

Lets say you're doing standard [magnet>jc magnet> djc fair] x N pressure. An opponent's largest window of opportunity to get safely OoS is after the fair, and if they know this they are going to be trying to anticipate the fair so they can immediately try to OoS without missing the window. If you always go for each move in that pressure pattern as soon as possible, it may be theoretically the safest (very small hole after a extremely low djc fair), but it is also the most transparent to a high level player. Holding magnet for a brief pauses before continuing the pattern makes the timing of your djc fair ambiguous to the opponent and demands that they react, rather than predict when they will be able to OoS.

 

[Eisen]

As for ideas, I love, LOVE to mix up jab1 into my shield pressure lately. It's definitely not his best option, but it has deceptive shield stun it seems like, and throws people off. Depending on who my opponent is, I might do something simple like

sh magnet > djc fair > jab > nair/grab/nair crossup/djc fair again or djc fair to another jab and then grab. Of course, mixing magnet up between these is much better, but I'm having a lot of success with this little bit of pressure, surprisingly.

Also, realize that the ultimate goal isn't necessarily to break the shield (though if you think you've got a good handle on everything and are on point, it definitely helps scare the opponent) since most people would rather drop it before letting it break. You've gotta be neon pretty much to get the shield break against anyone decent. I find that as long as I can rack on percent, set up for a combo, or get a grab, I'm pretty content.

 

[Kipcom]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srbb_Iw7vLo#t=484

Here's a video of me pulling off some decent shield pressure. I wish I could follow up on it better, though. What do you guys think, and how should I improve at it?

 

[Spice]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srbb_Iw7vLo#t=484

Here's a video of me pulling off some decent shield pressure. I wish I could follow up on it better, though. What do you guys think, and how should I improve at it?

Grab them? If you are behind them mix it up occasionally with a grab or footstool.

 

[Kipcom]

I footstool quite often, actually.

Though it's a lot easier for me to get footstools on shield at higher percent since they get a little scared during that time. Footstool to DJC Bair is a really good kill move.

I don't JC grab out of magnet enough sadly. I'll probably start implementing that more into my game.

 

[alexmedkex]

Do you guys actually alternate between pressing B and Y with the thumb? I can't see any other way to do it, but it just seems impossible to be fast that way.

 

[Spice]

Do you guys actually alternate between pressing B and Y with the thumb? I can't see any other way to do it, but it just seems impossible to be fast that way.

For what? If you are talking about multi-magnets, the way I do it (on the ground) is Down+B > Y > Down+B > Tap Up and then repeat if your timing is quick enough. Tap jump is really your friend with Lucas and any other character that has double jump cancels.

 

[alexmedkex]

For what? If you are talking about multi-magnets, the way I do it (on the ground) is Down+B > Y > Down+B > Tap Up and then repeat if your timing is quick enough. Tap jump is really your friend with Lucas and any other character that has double jump cancels.

Yeah exactly, so you are pressing B with your thumb and then Y with your thumb and then B again? What I'm saying is that I find it difficult to move my thumb so fast.

Mainly its the two first psi magnets that are difficult because you have two inputs in a row using your thumb. After that is a tap jump which you of course use your left hand with which lets you rest your thumb for a moment.

 

[Kipcom]

Yeah exactly, so you are pressing B with your thumb and then Y with your thumb and then B again? What I'm saying is that I find it difficult to move my thumb so fast.

Just practice it until you get it. There's really no other answer I can give you. Work those fingers.

 

[alexmedkex]

Just practice it until you get it. There's really no other answer I can give you. Work those fingers.

Well I just wanted to know if that's how you did it so I'm not practicing the wrong way, so I'm happy with that answer. Thanks!

 

[Zimflare]

Lol I have a hard time with multi magnet because I just want to WD out of it haha

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

To practice shieldpressure with hitlag you can either throw a starman onto the opponent in practice mode or use the walls in Shacow Moses Island. Both give you the same amount of hitlag as hitting a shield (or an opponent for that matter).

This is real useful for practice, thanks 8adge <3

 

[Sail]

Does anyone know the frame data for how long the opponent is in sheild stun with perfect sheild pressure by Lucas? I'd like to know if it's possible to buffer a roll out of the best sheild pressure.

 

[Badge]

Does anyone know the frame data for how long the opponent is in sheild stun with perfect sheild pressure by Lucas? I'd like to know if it's possible to buffer a roll out of the best sheild pressure.

Perfect multimagnets - green means opponent is in hitlag or shieldstun:

1 Jump
2 Jump
3 Jump
4 Jump
5
6 Magnet - Startup
7 Magnet - Startup
8 Magnet - Startup
9 Magnet - Startup
10 Magnet - Hold, Hitlag
11 Magnet - Hold
12 Magnet - Hold
13 Magnet - Release, Hitlag
14 Magnet - Release, Hitlag
15 Double Jump
16 Magnet - Startup
17 Magnet - Startup
18 Magnet - Startup
19 Magnet - Startup
20 Magnet - Hold, Hitlag
21 Magnet - Hold
22 Magnet - Hold
23 Magnet - Release, Hitlag
24 Magnet - Release, Hitlag

So only rolls that are intangible on frame 2(/3) work, but the common frame 4-intangible rolls get hit. This should be about the best shield pressure frame data wise that humans can do. (This is unstaled. Stale reduces the release-hitlag by 1 frame, but doesn't seem to affect the advantage. Theoretically it should, though, so I'm a little confused.)

 

[Sail]

Perfect multimagnets - green means opponent is in hitlag or shieldstun:

1 Jump
2 Jump
3 Jump
4 Jump
5
6 Magnet - Startup
7 Magnet - Startup
8 Magnet - Startup
9 Magnet - Startup
10 Magnet - Hold, Hitlag
11 Magnet - Hold
12 Magnet - Hold
13 Magnet - Release, Hitlag
14 Magnet - Release, Hitlag
15 Double Jump
16 Magnet - Startup
17 Magnet - Startup
18 Magnet - Startup
19 Magnet - Startup
20 Magnet - Hold, Hitlag
21 Magnet - Hold
22 Magnet - Hold
23 Magnet - Release, Hitlag
24 Magnet - Release, Hitlag

So only rolls that are intangible on frame 2(/3) work, but the common frame 4-intangible rolls get hit. This should be about the best shield pressure frame data wise that humans can do. (This is unstaled. Stale reduces the release-hitlag by 1 frame, but doesn't seem to affect the advantage. Theoretically it should, though, so I'm a little confused.)

Wow thanks! I had no idea Lucas' sheild pressure was just as good as Wolf's.

 

[Badge]

I had no idea Lucas' sheild pressure was just as good as Wolf's.

I haven't looked too deep into Wolf's shield pressure, but I'd wager Lucas' is better. Multimagnets as above trump even Fox's multishines because they deal more shield damage per shieldstun-block, Lucas can move during them (i.e. no escape via shield-di) and they can be varied in timing without giving up advantage due to the ability to hold magnet.
On top of that you have a guaranteed footstool out of a grounded magnet, which then leads into any aerial. Even shield pressure with DJC-aerials is still pretty good, but admittedly a bit weaker than spacie-pressure.

Really, the biggest hole in Lucas shield pressure is the difficulty of landing a magnet. If somebody was to get good enough with magnet-pressure each low magnet on shield would lead into a direct hit (and then huge amounts of damage/ko).
And spacie-pressure is easy-mode execution wise, so there's that...