Lucas being better than Ness doesn't make sense from a marketing standpoint

[Kiki52]

I thought this would make for a different topic than the original Ness vs Lucas thread because this deals with a whole different issue altogether with Nintendo.

It doesn't make any sense that Sakurai or Nintendo should make Lucas better than Ness is from a marketing standpoint, yet that is what they did. I do not know why they chose to do this, but consider this. In all the online commercials they showcase Lucas and Ness is nowhere to be seen and on the dojo Lucas was showcased first making people excited.

But what doesn't make sense to me is that MOTHER 3 will most likely never...ever... come to the United States translated. So why does Nintendo or Sakurai choose to promote MOTHER 3 by having Lucas and New Pork City as a stage when Nintendo has repeatedly denied requests for Atlus to do translations of MOTHER 3 for them to make sales in the US?

Nintendo has said themselves that they'll only consider giving MOTHER 3 a chance to come to America only if MOTHER 2/Earthbound sells well here in the US. This statement was made recently, yet I don't see Earthbound on the VC and considering that Nintendo or Sakurai for some unbelivable reason took out Earthbound/Mother 2's music out of Brawl, it seems like Nintendo just doesn't want to ever ever see Earthbound/MOTHER 2 ever again.

Without Earthbound on the VC, then there is no viable chance Nintendo would want to bring MOTHER 3 to America.

This ties in with making Lucas better than Ness. It is only though Ness/Earthbound that Lucas/MOTHER 3 can come to America, but according to Nintendo they won't even consider bringing MOTHER 3 to the US unless MOTHER 2/Earthbound sells well. So why does Sakurai like to promote a better Lucas over Ness when we'll never even get to see Lucas on the VC ever if Ness doesn't get on the VC first? Better characters are more popular and attract people better than weaker ones, yet Nintendo makes the weaker ones have to be in line first to go to the VC before even considering putting the stronger one (Lucas) on the VC.

If Nintendo wants to promote and bring MOTHER 3 to America, they should at least buff Ness in Brawl to be on par with Lucas so they can manage to make Ness more popular of a character in Brawl. That will increase interest in Earthbound, so they can put it on the VC. They should also put in the lost tracks for Earthbound back into Brawl. Then once Earthbound sells well on the VC, they can put MOTHER 3 on the VC.

If Sakurai and Nintendo just thought about this marketing wise it'd be more profitable for them and better for us.

Ness needs to be stronger (I mean like top tier) in order to increase his popularity among Brawl players who don't know anything about MOTHER to help promote Earthbound, and once that sells well then it'd give Nintendo a good reason to sell a translated MOTHER 3 to America.

 

[Metzger]

I don't think game designers create or balance their games with regards to the success of other developers' work.

 

[Mercury]

lucas is like way cooler anyway. he's blonde.

 

[Ademisk]

Well. Earthbound is on the Masterpieces of Brawl, I figure they'll probably release it on the VC in the upcoming months, if it does well, they'll probably bring Lucas here.

It seems likely, since Lucas in Brawl has....if nothing else, REALLY hyped Mother 3.

 

[Kiki52]

Earthbound is on the master pieces of Brawl? In the US version? I thought that they took it out at the last minute.

 

[Ademisk]

............I may destroy them.

 

[Smashbros_7]

lol at Ademisk realising US got shafted again.

 

[Lib3r4t3]

Even being a Lucas user over a Ness user, I have to admit, it does seem self destructive. Then again, Sakurai is not from Nintendo; he's from Hal.

 

[Smashbros_7]

Ness controls the sky!
Lucas controls the ground!

Ness is Japanese from a U.S game
Lucas is American from a JP game.

Lolwut?

 

[eyestrain92]

Ness controls the sky!
Lucas controls the ground!

Ness is Japanese from a U.S game
Lucas is American from a JP game.

Lolwut?

Oh lawd...

Good point, Ness' game seems more vert based. He's a slower, but stronger character (in terms of knockback, this is fairly obvious.) Lucas not better, I can't stand him in fact. His moves lack the nasty knockback Ness has. I don't care if he puts on damage faster, Ness already had a very little range of KO moves, taking away more moves he can use to KO seems brainless to me if anything.

No offense Lucas players. I play Ness.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Oh lawd...

Good point, Ness' game seems more vert based. He's a slower, but stronger character (in terms of knockback, this is fairly obvious.) Lucas not better, I can't stand him in fact. His moves lack the nasty knockback Ness has. I don't care if he puts on damage faster, Ness already had a very little range of KO moves, taking away more moves he can use to KO seems brainless to me if anything.

No offense Lucas players. I play Ness.

Hyuck hyuck hyuck.

Actually, Lucas has the better knockback. All his smash attacks alone are stronger than anything Ness has outside of PK thunder2 and PK Flash, both of which are kind of difficult to pull off against a skilled opponent (not so much PK Thunder2, but Flash at least.)

Although honestly, I still cannot decide just from watching videos alone who's better. They both have such strong points in different areas.

 

[Ademisk]

Technically, Ness is Eaglish.


Also, Ness's F-smash is stronger than Lucas's. Lucas's other smahes are epic, sure, but if they miss....WOW. Bat to the face. Tipper no less.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Oh, so the bat IS Stronger than the stick? Someone was messing with me and said that the stick had more KO power but did less damage.

 

[Ademisk]

Nope. I tested it thoroughly. The bat tipper kills exactly 4% earlier than the stick tipper. And does 15% more damage.

 

[The_Court_Jester]

Wow... The bat OWNS the stick.

I was thinking of doing a Ness/Lucas comparison because I'm bored. Think I should?

 

[Ademisk]

Yes. Compare every attack in every single way.

 

[The_Court_Jester]

Sorry, my sarcasm meter is broken. I WAS planning on doing that, but match ups. Like Ness' Ftilt vs. Lucas' Ftilt. Except I actually don't know any of Lucas' tilts. I suppose I should do more research.

...<.<;

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Nope. I tested it thoroughly. The bat tipper kills exactly 4% earlier than the stick tipper. And does 15% more damage.

What? 4% earlier? ffff. I was expecting better than that. Oh well, it certainly has the damage advantage, although it's slower.

Also, I think a lot of Ness's KO power comes from his back throw. It's accessable and strong. A lot of Lucas's KO moves are difficult to land and strong.

 

[Ademisk]

Lessee the overall of Bat VS Stick.

Power: Bat > Stick
Damage: Bat > Stick
Speed : Bat < Stick
Range: Bat > Stick

Pretty sure Bat wins overall.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Sorry, my sarcasm meter is broken. I WAS planning on doing that, but match ups. Like Ness' Ftilt vs. Lucas' Ftilt. Except I actually don't know any of Lucas' tilts. I suppose I should do more research.

...<.<;

I'll do it for you then.

FTILT:

Ness: a little roundhouse kick. Short range, high priority for a close range attack.

Lucas: psycic spark. Much more range than Ness with slightly less knockback. Lower priority but a disjointed hitbox. Slightly faster.

Verdict: Lucas wins for the range and speed of this move alone.

U-TILT:

Ness: volly ball push. Fast but weak. Great for juggling. Safe to use.

Lucas: psychic flip kick. Fast but pretty strong for its speed. Can KO. Disjointed hitbox and great priority/range but has some lag time at the end that can be punished.

Verdict: Lucas wins. This attack is just good all around. Ness's could use a bit more power.

Down Tilt: they both are low, fast moves that trip.

Verdict: Ness wins. It's much more rapid than Lucas's and seems to trip easier. Also has more range and seemingly more priority.

=AERIALS=

F-AIR

It's a tie. Ness's Fair isn't really a KO move, but it has excellent combo potential and is so safe. Lucas's is much much better for attacking and has more range, but is less of a defensive attack and doesn't have the same combo potential. If I had to choose one over the other, I'd go with Ness.

D-AIR

Ness wins this one hands down. Lucas's multi-psychic stomp is an awkward and fiddly attack. Ness is just lots of damage and spike + combo ability straight away.

U-AIR

Ness wins this too, I think. Both are headbutts, but Ness seems to have more KO power on his and more priority and range. Lucas jumps up a bit though.

B-AIR

Ness wins here also. Lucas's is disjointed but it's just not that fast. It can spike, but really the super-fast lightning kick of Ness is just too good.

Smashes are too hard to compare. They're used for different things. Two of Ness's smashes are unconventional defensive attacks, so you can't really compare them to Lucas's pure damage and KO attacks. However, Lucas's stick beats Ness's Bat, since it's faster and Kos at about the same %, meaning it's easier to reflect projectiles with it too.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Lessee the overall of Bat VS Stick.

Power: Bat > Stick
Damage: Bat > Stick
Speed : Bat < Stick
Range: Bat > Stick

Pretty sure Bat wins overall.

an extra 4% of KO power is hardly worth anything. And due to the speed of the stick, the projectile reflecting ability is also better. I would consider the stick to be better from speed alone, really.

I've seen LOTS of Lucas players get KOs with the stick. Ness players rarely ever land the bat from what I've seen. Kind of sad, really. I want to see more ace ball play.

 

[Earthbound360]

Stick>Bat
You forgot to mention sweetspot range. Lucaas' sweetspots anywhere while Nes' doesnt.

And like NESSBOUNDER said, the power doesnt matter as much as the MUCh greater speed the stick has.

 

[The_Court_Jester]

Eh. I'll do a quick comparison. Thanks for the tilts! It seems the tilts are a lot better for Lucas.

Mmkay.

B Move: PK Freeze > PK Flash because there's a slight chance you can land Freeze. And you can kind of use it for edgeguarding against novices. But both suck.

B> Move: Tough one. Really. Ness' deals more damage and can lead to a cheap smash with it's stall to people who can't DI. But Lucas' can be used in the air a lot better and helps his spacing game. I'll call a tie, but I'd side with Ness if I had to choose.

PK Thunder 1: Ness has tighter control and can actually juggle people a tad. Lucas can hit a lot of times, so it may do more damage, but the control is lame. Ness.

PK Thunder 2: Lucas has a lot easier time to get to it then Ness does, and it goes a lot farther {I've SD'd on accident with it because I was used to Ness}. Ness might deal more damge, but I'll side with Lucas on this one.

Bv Move: Lucas' doesn't leave him wide open, like Ness'. And it's still easy to catch energy projectiles with it. Ness' isn't as good at all, sorry. Lucas.

Jabs: Who the **** cares? Probably Ness, I don't know.

FTilt: As Nessbounder said, Disjointed hitbox > Sidekick, which is very meh.

FSmash: Generally, Lucas can actually land it. And reflect attacks. Ness' bat deals an incredible higher amount and launches farther, but Lucas can use it easier and with greater effect.

Utilt: I remember Lucas' now! And it's a lot better then Ness'! Really, now that I remember it, it's AWESOME. Ness' isn't bad, but isn't great.

USmash: Lucas' is incredibly awesome, and has an INSANE hitbox. Ness' is a defensive move, which can lead to combos. Lucas' has one of the, if not, THE best USmash in the game. No match, Lucas.

Dtilt: Ness is slightly better and more spammable. Ness wins.

DSmash: Lucas' seems to be fairly powerful, but near impossible to land, takes a while, and doesn't cover both sides of him. Ness' yo-yo isn't fantastic, but it beats out Lucas'.

Nair: Whenever someone uses Lucas' Nair against me, I get hurt. Ness' kinda sucks. Lucas wins by a lot.

Fair: Ness has better combo uses. Lucas has a solid hit, which I like in a Fair. But Ness' has a lot of applications, and can combo well, so Ness.

Uair: Same thing. Ness is a little more powerful. So I got with Ness.

Bair: Ness' is a great kill move, whilst Lucas' is pretty unremarkable. Lucas' can spike, but... Eh. It's not as good as Ness'. Ness wins.

Dair: A pretty unremarkable spike vs. a PK multihit attack. Lucas' can spike, but it's odd and clunky. Ness' is solid and basic, and I like that. Ness wins.

Someone else compare grabs. One last thing, though.

Mr Saturn Shirt >>>>>>>xinfinity>>>>>>> Claus

 

[Ademisk]

Ness's nair is extremely good, Lucas might win out a bit, but Ness's is a bit faster. Lucas's Dsmash beats out Ness's dsmash for sheer power.

And I still say the bat wins due to range.

Jabs are one of the most important attacks in Brawl. Don't underestimate them.

You sure Ness's ftilt isn't faster than Lucas's? At the very least Ness can combo his aerials into it.

Ness's PKT2 is SOOOO much better from an attacking standpoint than Lucas, not even funny.


And if you're going to compare at least pull some %s

 

[heypancho]

Ness' nair IS extremely good. Can get you out of an annoying combo pickle and it can mess up someone's recovery if you don't wanna dair.

And if you were to argue Ness' bat being better.. you'd only be arguing for it to be slightly better because you can see that thing coming and you're going to get hit out of it before anything. Nothing like Lucas' stick, which is stupid. I mean Ness' range hardly makes up for it's buffer time.. and speaking of range.. is it even really that much longer? You still have to stand close to hit a person and they can easily jab you out. You really have to plan a fsmash for Ness while Lucas can KO with his stick straight out of an aerial without risking a lot.

Ness' PKT is better and PKT2 is sometimes better. Lucas' PKT2 would only be better for the first few times because opponents misjudge it's ridiculous range. Lucas' PKT is embarrassingly slow.

 

[Ademisk]

With pivot smashes out of skid mindgames, the ability to predict it becomes slightly...less easy and the range becomes...more important.

 

[kainsword]

I'd actually say Lucas's PK Fire beats Ness's. So far, Lucas can Zap Jump and with B-Sticking, the backwards push helps spacing. Especially since there's considerable lag-time after a PK Fire, if one misses it, the backwards slide will keep you out of attack range.

While Ness's can stall and Smash a KO out of it, I'd give it to Lucas for the range and the techniques found from it. Lucas can stand his own ground in not having to use a stall to KO with.

Also, Lucas's PK Thunder2 I'd argue for being better, because:
1. Jumping on Lucas while recovering won't stop him. Killing Ness when he's recovering is simple by just interrupting his PK Thunder from touching him.
2. The small hits of PK Thunder2 push the opponent into the last frame of PK Thunder2's animation which does indeed have great knockback. Both the first and last frame of the animation have great knockback.
3. Not to mention that Lucas's PK Thunder was created to have tighter control. Whoever said Ness's had tighter control is a complete idiot. It was stated in the Ness character update that Lucas's PK Thunder had tighter control because it could turn around in steeper angles. Ness's PK Thunder beats Lucas in speed, not control.
4. A PK Thunder1 that doesn't dissipate makes getting Smash Balls oh so easy.

Also, Lucas's PSI Magnet does indeed cover his entire body, in a sense. If he gets projectile attacked from the other way, he turns around, facing the attack, and absorbs it. It also has decent knockback and stun at higher percentages.

Both PK Freeze and PK Flash are incredibly tough to pull off 1 vs 1, so either's usefulness is rather moot. PK Flash has the benefit of covering Ness from above with a small explosion, while PK Freeze is more user-friendly and faster; therefore meaning one has more opportunities to attempt to pull it off in battle.

While I love Lucas's Specials, I do like Ness's A attacks a quite a bit better. I'd prefer Ness's standard attacks over almost each of Lucas's. It's also easy to say that Ness's grabs are far superior.

I prefer Lucas over Ness, because I like having use of Lucas's projectile utility and recovery options with Zap Jump. I'd kill to have Ness with either Lucas's special attacks, ro Lucas with Ness's standard attacks and grabs.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Pk Thunder 1 belongs to Lucas! Seriously, you can do up to 30% and KO with the bolt alone! It even spikes if you hit with it right. The speed and control are NOT an issue.

Pkthunder2 bolongs to Ness. Lucas's is garbage for attacking and can be DI'd to escape.

Also, I think Ness's jabs are better.

I personally prefer Ness's PK fire because of how nasty it is. (first hit deals 6%, all other hits after that deal 3%. That's pretty much 12-15% guaranteed on a human opponent.) However, Lucas can rely on his PK Fire to work at any %. Ness's PK Fire becomes less useful as the opponent's damage rises, while Lucas's becomes more useful.

 

[Ademisk]

Ness's still works with stages and against projectiles better. It hits any damageable stage object or any projectile, and it's going to stick around for a while and block your way.

 

[heypancho]

I think PKT belongs to Ness........... if you play Ness for awhile and really use his PKT and then switch over to Lucas, you'll notice the speed difference and it's limited duration and length. Ness' is really long and very fast. Try juggling someone in the air for awhile with PKT and then throw a PKT2 at them. It's fun : ).. even if it misses hehe.

 

[Ademisk]

Lucas's is better. It's a kill move, it juggles better because you don't have to aim the tailwhip, and it allows you to follow people better. Ness's is better for PKT2 mindgames, because you can **** with your opponent's mind before leading it back to yourself. Lucas might have the advantage in the mind****ery, but without the range, you'll never trick someone into coming close.

 

[The_Court_Jester]

Alright, switch PKT's with each other. I forgot how much damage a PK Thunder could do. And I forgot that Ness' can kill at insanely low percentages more often. It's just Lucas' is easier to get to.

I still think that Ness' Dsmash >>>> Lucas'. Wait for it to end and run in for a grab, which you can do. Rolling isn't as cool, because of the hidden hitboxes. Also, you can throw projectiles at Lucas easy. And Lucas' has a lot of lag.

I may have underestimated the Nair's and Jabs, but I stand by my statements. Ness' can get him out of a pickle, but Lucas' is just awesome. Now that I remember Lucas', Ness' is still better. So yeah.

Sidekick can combo into aerials, but it's still sorta meh.

 

[Ademisk]

Noooo, aerials combo into sidekick.

Also, Lucas's dsmash is way better than Ness's. Both are easily punishable, Ness's has mindgames, Lucas's has big freaking damage and knockback. Lucas's wins.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Noooo, aerials combo into sidekick.

Also, Lucas's dsmash is way better than Ness's. Both are easily punishable, Ness's has mindgames, Lucas's has big freaking damage and knockback. Lucas's wins.

Ness's has much more speed and range though. Turn around and use it like a frontal attack or just throw it out to get rid of those pesky Lucario players who like to dodge around you all the time.

 

[Quarter]

Lucas isn't better, they have completely different playstyles and if you do think that he is better thats merely your opinion.

 

[SilverChaos]

Well I liked Ness enough to pick up Earthbound, I think that interest in Lucas will cause interest in Earthbound as being in the same series.
Of course, I tend to check out these old games wether the character is good or not.

 

[Ademisk]

Yay! Someone else who agrees!

 

[WarMachine]

Lessee the overall of Bat VS Stick.

Power: Bat > Stick
Damage: Bat > Stick
Speed : Bat < Stick
Range: Bat > Stick

Pretty sure Bat wins overall.

Well... not to be a killjoy but...

Power: Tipper KO's about 4% earlier than the stick, non tipper KO's more than 30% later than the stick... So yeah, tipper > stick, but stick >>>>>> non-tipper

Damage: It's the truth. The bat does way more damage.

Speed: Yessir. Stick is a ton faster.

Range: Not sure where people are getting this idea. Here's something to try: Do a special metal giant high gravity brawl with the damage ratio set to .5 on final destination, ness vs lucas. (All of this is just so the characters won't move when they get hit.) Edge the characters slowly forward and swing the bat/stick with the c-stick periodically. Pretty soon you'll find the magic spot where Lucas can hit ness, but ness can't hit lucas. Now move them forward and swing with lucas a bit after ness so that the bats hit at the same time and you'll quickly learn that the stick out-prioritizes the bat as well.


Also, on PK fire... I think before B-sticking came into existence, it was in fact just a matter of preference... but now that lucas can get roughly half of final destination's worth of space in one casting... I'm not really convinced this is the case anymore.



Ness still has stuff about him that's way better than anything Lucas has. The bat just isn't one of them. PKT2 comes to mind, and I still miss the hell out of the bair and fair whenever I'm playing lucas rather than ness. Also, Ness has way better throws.


Not to mention the Mr. Saturn shirt is the best costume in the game. =p

 

[Conda]

Lucas has eyebrows.

Ness does not.

Lucas > Ness

 

[PKboy89]

My main was Ness in melee. He was a really good character, despite the super duper nerf he got. When I got Brawl and tried out Lucas, I loved it. He is a lot faster, and it is so not true that Ness has better knockback attacks then Lucas. Lucas has a lot of good ground and aerial attacks then ness does, and his down smash and up smash are a lot stronger then Ness's yo yo. I main Lucas but I still love to play Ness, you can't really say that one is better then the other, they are two completely different characters, even their b moves are different. Ness users always try comparing to Lucas. THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT CHARACTERS, and out of all the other counter parts (Mario and Luigi, Falco and Fox, ect) Ness and Lucas are the most different.

As for the promotion of Mother 3 and putting Lucas in the game. It doesn't matter if Earthbound didn't get amazing sells in the US, Mother is a very popular series in Japan. Lucas was put in cause Japan just loves mother, and Japanese Mother fans were very excited that Lucas was put in