Lucario Guide - Help

[Risky]

Hey guys. I'm planning on making an in-depth Lucario guide and was wondering if anybody wants to help! I want to include as much relevant (very subjective) information as possible and if you have any suggestions feel free to post here.

What I know I want to include so far;
Neutral game - Movement! What we're doing passively, how to approach, stuff approaches, stop projectiles.
On shield pressure - What's safe. What to do if the opponent is buffering escapes, or if they're clueless.
Offstage - Most reliable edgeguards, as well as gimps. When, how, and what move to recover with.
Punishes - B&B's that work at every % range. Methods to combo and which moves you should be using when.
Mechanics - Explain the nuances of the Aura system, the OHC system, as well as their possibilities and limitations.
Frame data - Each moves active and laggy frames on whiff. The shieldstun/hitstun of each move to best figure out pressure and combo options. I'll be figuring this one out as I go, been compiling data using debug mode and 2 controllers. So far I'm not happy with the results I've found but that's a topic for another day.
Random tech - My favorite part, showing off!

That's what I'm working towards so far. I'll have recording equipment in a couple days and will probably make a lot of gifs for examples of everything.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

I really wanted to write a guide to Lucario and I had a lot of ideas for it too. Never got around to it, cause college, laziness and stuff, but I'd be glad to help out. I was thinking in addition to frame data, you could include a little blurb about the move and how and when to combo with it. For example,

Down Tilt:

*Insert gif + frame data here*

Lucario's down tilt is his fastest tilt, coming out on frame 5. It has a large horizontal range, and its sweet spot breaks crouch cancel at 0%. It's best to cancel into his down tilt from a dash attack against spacies and fast-fallers in general and against characters who have very strong crouch cancel options such as Link, Luigi (only when he crouch cancels or else the down tilt won't hit him), Mewtwo (only when crouch cancelling) etc. Down tilt's sweet-spot pops the opponent into the air kind of like Peach's and deals a good bit of hitstun, making it an amazing combo starter and extender.

Examples: Down tilt > ASC > Run > Jump-cancel grab (mid to low %s)
Down tilt > ASC > Neutral/Forward/Up Air (higher %s)

Edit: Never mind. I didn't read the part about combo potential after the frame data. Sorry, I'm kind of tired. Anyways, I'd be glad to help.

 

[Zoa]

I'll help as well. Risky, since you're doing the debug stuff should I bother to do any of it or no? Just asking since you already began it, and I have no idea how to calculate shieldstun.

 

[Losho]

Lucario's down tilt is his fastest tilt, coming out on frame 5. It has a large horizontal range, and its sweet spot breaks crouch cancel at 0%.

I have been playing Lucario for quite some time and didn't think to use downtilt to avoid crouch-canceling. Learning is already happening, step one complete.

 

[Risky]

@ Fish&Herbs19 I'll be getting recording equipment soon and I did plan on having a gfy for pretty much every move. Stuff like what happens if the opponent DI's usmash left, right, or no DI, as much info as possible.

@ Zoa There's supposed to be a formula, but I know that certain attacks don't follow it, so I have to test every move. All I do is freeze/advance frame, do whatever attack and have let's say Marth shield it with my other controller, and buffer a spot dodge after it hits shield. Count frames until he drops shield.

 

[Zoa]

Okay. Since you've already started it, I'll try and figure out something else to contribute.

 

[Risky]

Okay. Since you've already started it, I'll try and figure out something else to contribute.

I could see this taking a month or more, I'm sure there's something you could help me with along the way. I appreciate the effort already.

 

[Zoa]

I could see this taking a month or more, I'm sure there's something you could help me with along the way. I appreciate the effort already.

The guide or debug taking more than a month? If the debug will take that long, or at least quite a while, I could do debug mode to help compare my findings with yours.

 

[Zoa]

Okay. I decided to do a short summarization of the OHC and new Aura system. I'll think on it some more tomorrow and submit it here. I can't cover every angle, so I ask that if someone reads over it and can correct/add anything, then it'd be appreciated.

 

[Risky]

Organizing all of my thoughts and making sure to leave nothing out, that's what's going to make this take time. I'm going to be honest... I'm doing this more as a way to improve my own Lucario and Smash game in general, and crystallize some of the thoughts I've had regarding the character and P:M. I do want to improve the Lucario player base as a whole and bring more respect to the character, but that isn't my main goal.

I'll listen and debate with you on anything you'd like to post here, in fact that is the exact reason I posted this to begin with, but I don't guarantee that any of it will make it into the guide. Thought if it does credit will go where it is due.

That being said I'm a theorycrafter at heart and plan on sharing many of my personal theories regarding Lucario. This will be the perfect vehicle for it. I believe Lucario can theoretically touch of death every character in the game, and every combo should be ending in either an ESC Nair or Aura Bomb kill. Do you agree?

 

[Zoa]

Hey. You're going to compile an awesome guide for Luc, and actually go out of your way to research and share it. That's cool in my book. That's part of the reason I'm attempting to help at least anyways. I still don't understand a lot of his moves' functionality because my 2010 Brawl muscle memory hasn't left. I still struggle a lot as a result.

About the idea you brought up, I agree with the first half. The second half I don't completely agree with. Luc has a tremendous number of KO options with above average power to most of them. They just require sweetspots. AB has only one guaranteed set up in my experience: dair first hit. Otherwise I use it to limit options in neutral, limit options from the ledge by throwing it high, or throw out after something like fsmash. It catches them completely by surprise, and gives them limited time to react to it. Since a lot of the charges are already used on burst movement, I save ES cancel nair for when I get in my opponent's head or I can follow up a risky KO.

 

[Risky]

I mentioned those two specifically because they're his most consistently powerful KO moves. You're right that there are other options for sure. You can definitely combo into AB if you know how your opponent is DI'ing, and when to throw it. That's the part that will make you a great player. Doing setups that are strictly guaranteed will only get you so far when you're playing a character like Lucario. Since punishes are the strongest aspect of his game reading DI is an extremely important skill to have. If you recognize early on in a match than an opponent is DI'ing into you it's like... candy.

Lucario should be able to end every combo in a kill, or with the opponent in a severely compromised position offstage. Whether it be a grounded ESC -> dsmash at the edge, Fair -> aFP offstage, usmash -> AB, uair -> ESC -> uair sweetspot off the top, or some aerial DTC -> 1 hit dair -> aFP 20XX ****. There are so many possibilities.

 

[Zoa]

This is exactly why I prefer PM Lucario. Crazy number of options no other character has. He's got 20XX written all over him. Once the final update hits, and the metagame begins to evolve for Luc, I'd wager he'll be an incredible threat.

 

[Zoa]

Okay. Here's a small start to my OHC summarization. This is for beginning players btw.

OHC stands for on hit cancel. By connecting with an opponent's shield or hurtbox you have the ability to instantly (one frame or 1/60 of a second) transition from one move to another. However there is a catch. The move you used decides the next move you have the ability to transition into. Here's the tree:

Dash attack (DA)/jab -> tilt -> smash -> specials
Aerials -> specials

The top corresponds to grounded moves. The process is very linear looking. It would give the impression that despite the ability to transition immediately to another move, it limits Lucario's options of what leads into what. This far from the truth.

Lucario is capable of transitioning into just about anything in his move set. Lucario is quite possibly the most potential combo monster of any character. How so? The secret is ASC. ASC stands for Aura Sphere Cancel.

ASC acts like an aerial L-cancel and grounded L-cancel. Doing this frame perfect only gives a gap of 10 frames in between available inputs. To do this you simply hold the shield button before inputting the AS (Aura Sphere) command. It will cancel perfectly every single time. You can also just press the shield button to ASC as well. Mastering this allows you to "break" the preset command string.

ASC gives you many creative options other characters do not have. It greatly reduces lag for many of Luc's moves as they have tons of ending lag. What other characters do have, like jab -> grab for instance, is what ASC allows Luc to do as well.

However ASC is also the Achilles' heel of the OHC system. In order to do many things outside of the preset string of commands, you must learn to ASC on a functional level. Otherwise you will not be able to do many of Lucario's other combos at an adequate level. Every other character isn't limited to a preset string of commands. You must learn to ASC.

 

[THEDADPOOL]

I really wanted to write a guide to Lucario and I had a lot of ideas for it too. Never got around to it, cause college, laziness and stuff, but I'd be glad to help out. I was thinking in addition to frame data, you could include a little blurb about the move and how and when to combo with it. For example,

Down Tilt:

*Insert gif + frame data here*

Lucario's down tilt is his fastest tilt, coming out on frame 5. It has a large horizontal range, and its sweet spot breaks crouch cancel at 0%. It's best to cancel into his down tilt from a dash attack against spacies and fast-fallers in general and against characters who have very strong crouch cancel options such as Link, Luigi (only when he crouch cancels or else the down tilt won't hit him), Mewtwo (only when crouch cancelling) etc. Down tilt's sweet-spot pops the opponent into the air kind of like Peach's and deals a good bit of hitstun, making it an amazing combo starter and extender.

Examples: Down tilt > ASC > Run > Jump-cancel grab (mid to low %s)
Down tilt > ASC > Neutral/Forward/Up Air (higher %s)

Edit: Never mind. I didn't read the part about combo potential after the frame data. Sorry, I'm kind of tired. Anyways, I'd be glad to help.

if im not mistaken from ive been told by ipk is that the best way to beat out cc is to up smash asc considering you cant get grabbed out of this option where as down tilt you can get grabbed

 

[Risky]

if im not mistaken from ive been told by ipk is that the best way to beat out cc is to up smash asc considering you cant get grabbed out of this option where as down tilt you can get grabbed

Both options blow up crouch canceling. dtilt requires spacing and comes out on frame 5. usmash is easier to space yet not as far reaching, and comes out on frame 10, but has generally better followups. They both have their merits and are among our best options to cancel into. There isn't much reason to choose one over the other. dtilt -> usmash is good

 

[THEDADPOOL]

dash attack dtilt can get you grabbed but dash attack up smash doesn't for whatever reason unless they are tether character

 

[Risky]

When are you getting grabbed? After the da or the dtilt?

 

[Zoa]

Hey, Risky. What start up frames for Luc's moves do you have? I'm starting to get curious about his move speed.

 

[THEDADPOOL]

When are you getting grabbed? After the da or the dtilt?

to be honest i very rarely go into dtilt from a da only time i use dtilt is after a jab or shield pressure

 

[Risky]

to be honest i very rarely go into dtilt from a da only time i use dtilt is after a jab or shield pressure

I actually thought you meant getting shieldgrabbed even though you were talking about crouch canceling. It really depends on the option your opponent is trying to cc you with. You'll never be able to da -> usmash a Mario who's mashing down on the cstick. A spaced dtilt will beat out this option just barely though.

 

[Risky]

Hey, Risky. What start up frames for Luc's moves do you have? I'm starting to get curious about his move speed.

I'm not going to be posting numbers unless relevant to a specific discussion (to make myself look good obv).

 

[Zoa]

I'm not going to be posting numbers unless relevant to a specific discussion (to make myself look good obv).

This reminded me of this. I have the most random thoughts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wRHBLwpASw

 

[Risky]

This reminded me of this. I have the most random thoughts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wRHBLwpASw

Lol, love it. It'd be more like "Blue jeans, T-shirt, hasn't shaved in quite a few daaays"

 

[Zoa]

That fits me so much right now. lol

 

[Darkgun]

If you happen to find any of the old tech skill brief I posted useful, feel free to snag that. I'm honestly really glad you're starting this up, as I never could really build up the drive to make a guide, though I've certainly been tempted on more than one occasion.

As a suggestion (and probably a personal preference, honestly), you might consider a section of the guide dedicated to theorycraft. I'm of the impression that player preference is what currently makes the character so visually diverse from player to player, and as such would personally avoid adding specific uses based upon situation in the explanation portion of the guide, instead putting all of that in the dedicated section.

Oh, and I suppose a reference page for acronyms. There are quite a few of them now. Heck, I might just throw one of those together if I am stricken by spontaneity.

In response to your previous query, I'm with you on the belief that in optimal Lucario play means that every touch is a touch of death. However I am somewhat of the impression that many of these combos will not be full hitstun combos, as in quite a few pre-tumble cases, the better option may be to forfeit your opponent's time in hitstun in favor of crossing them up or repositioning for a more rewarding/safer read.

Also, it has been a while since I've been of the mind to try it, but doesn't a late tipper DA link into a sweetspot dtilt?

 

[Zoa]

Alright. Some acronyms off the top of my head (thanks for the reminder, Darkgun) for beginners:

ASC: Aura Sphere Cancel
DT: Double Team
FCAS: Fully charged Aura Sphere
BAS: Baby Aura Sphere
DTC: Double Team cancel
AS: Aura Sphere
AB: Aura Bomb (giant AS)
aFP: aerial Force Palm
ES: ExtremeSpeed
ESC: ExtremeSpeed cancel
FP: Force Palm
Tatsu/Tatsumaki Senpukyaku: Nair
Shoryuken: Usmash

 

[Darkgun]

FCAS. Never seen that one before.

...is there any other acronyms? I mean, there's modifiers to acronyms at this point, but I can only think of maybe one or two others acronym, which I will go ahead and put here.

JC: Jump Cancel. [Is this considered a global tech? Not everyone has it, but we use it quite a bit in conjunction to usmash.]
AStS: Aura Sphere to Shield
Oh, and I guess I haven't thought of any specific name for Aura Sphere Pivot Cancel, though mainly because I don't suspect there's anywhere that it would, in a very specific sense, be useful (for example, when am I- oh wait I think I have one: deep DA>ftilt>ASPC>grab. But when else?). Perhaps ASP?

So modifiers! Let's list those. Most of these are global, thankfully.
r[special]: Reverse
Br[special]: B-Reverse
RAR[aerial]: Reverse Aerial Rush
WB[special]: Wave Bounce [Technically could be "rBr", but that seems kinda silly.]
a[special]: Aerial
[move](xth): defines specific hit within multi-hit move. Numbered sequentially.
early[move]: connecting early during move's active hitbox.
late[move]: connecting late during move's active hitbox.
strong[move]: connecting with the strong hitbox. (Sweetspot)
weak[move]: connecting with the weak hitbox. (Sourspot)
deep[move]: connecting with a move while practically touching opponent.
tipper[move]: the thing that goes on the end of things.


Oh oh! We need an acronym for footstool. I nominate BOOP.

It stands for BOOP.

 

[Zoa]

I've seen FCAS floating around a couple of times. Thought I'd put it. I second BOOP.

 

[Risky]

Also, it has been a while since I've been of the mind to try it, but doesn't a late tipper DA link into a sweetspot dtilt?

I don't think hitting with the tip of DA matters. I believe the first active frame is a strong hitbox and it becomes a weak hitbox after.

 

[Zoa]

Can we get someone to expand on our offstage edgeguarding and ledge game? I know of several basics, but not much outside of it.

 

[Risky]

Some stuff off(stage) the top of my head;
-Dair is probably our best and safest aerial for edgeguarding, decent disjointed hitbox and we can position it above the edge or chase aggressively with it.
-Fastfall nair off the edge can be effective at edgeguarding characters like Marth since it has 30+ active frames, but it's basically death if you miss.
-Dtilt hits slightly under the stage but is hard to time - very effective at punishing whiffed sweetspots though since it puts you into crouch and has strong followups.
-Aggressive Aura Spheres off the edge while the opponent descends. Good vs Marth, Link, characters with predictable trajectories. Hit them or force their jump. Surprisingly powerful KO move. Also good when opponent hanging from ledge and trying to get on. It can hit below the ledge if thrown on a certain frame as you land (still have not figured this out. sometimes AS will almost ride the ground and will hit people hanging on the ledge when thrown this way. Charge AS covers a lot of options and can be a free edgeguard against some recoveries.
-Tethers. Against tethers the general rule now is to hold ledge until they reel in. Tethers can no longer be dropped early, and reel in after ~2 seconds automatically. You can either jump up and footstool or nair if ZSS/Ivy reel in and DI back to trick you, wait until they go on stage and follow up, or drop off edge and fair/dair if you think they're going to tether and hang until the auto reel in.
-Fsmash is a situational edgeguard similar to dtilt, catching whiffed sweetspots, but being lower risk while harder to time. Good vs characters you need to space your edgeguard against like Ike. I prefer AS in this situation personally.
-ESC. Almost any move you get near the edge can be converted into a kill if you have the guts to ESC into them and nair/dair. This will be what separates great Lucarios imo. He has such potential to gimp literally /anyone/ next to the edge using this move it's disgusting. On Yoshi's Story ESC -> Footstool slightly below the ledge kills before the tumble animation ends.

I still haven't experimented with many ES edgeguards. As in aiming ES at the ledge as someone is recovering to beat their move. I also see a ton of potential in DTC edgeguards either flying at the edge with an invincible aerial, or an invincible dtilt to always win the exchange.

 

[Zoa]

So standard offstage is lacking without factoring in ES, DT, or AB?

 

[Risky]

No, our aerial offstage game is quite potent. Stuff I forgot;
-Bair is great for killing at mid-high% offstage or for edgeguarding sweetspots, as it will hit below the ledge when done properly. Dair shares this property as well.
-Early Fair gimps are pretty easy to do on Spacies. If you get a throw offstage or work them offstage and below the ledge they're in "free edgeguard land". Simply drop down and Fair the **** out of them until they're dead. It's strong for contesting Side-B offstage as well. If they're DI'ing towards the stage, which of course they are if they're recovering with a move aimed at it, you can get another aerial off of Fair ASC'd depending on their %, Nair, whichever followup you want. I usually prefer Dair as it always sends a good distance regardless of their DI or %, and is less risky since you don't fall while you do it.
-Fair into aFP is doable if the opponent is using survival DI at mid-high%. Dair 1hit into aFP is always a combo if you can get into the position to do it.

All in all, I'd say the best way to challenge recoveries onstage is dtilt, a shffl Dair at the ledge to catch sweetspots, or delayed bair which covers basically every option. If you're going offstage, falloff ledge Fair is a quick way to catch people out of jumps. Dair serves this purpose too depending on their position, and will almost always kill if you hit someone that's below the ledge. Dair is a safe way to challenge horizontal recoveries (think DK, Ike).Fair works nearly as well, if not better vs Ike, but doesn't send nearly as far.

 

[yuedi]

Well, my BnB typically consists of Dash Attack-Forward Tilt-Up Smash- Jump (on 4th hit)-Fair- Side B. This works at low percent on most fast-fallers or heavy-weights so I try to sneak one in whenever I start a match. After the meteor throw, you can try to tech chase with a fast-fall dair for a regular tech or down-b cancel-nair for a tech roll.

Exceptions:
- even though I did this on a Lucario, I am not really consistent
- I know this doesn't work on Fox (he just falls too fast for the fair to force palm to connect), hence I just side-b immediately out of up-smash, ( this works on all spacies at any percent).

I also see many people (hylian, iPK, and amsa) do up-b cancel-nair or up-b cancel- dair-side B after fair.

Personally, my biggest problem in 3.5 is the recovery and edge-guarding. In 3.02, it was so easy to sweet spot and ledge snap from any position on or off-stage. Any advice or tech options?

P.S. who else missed the old days when you can immediately up-smash cancel with waveland?

 

[Risky]

If the opponent is not DI'ing away from you then that's a great combo, especially near the edge. Try us4 -> Fair -> ESC Nair. This is an effective way to kill floaties near the side of the stage/finishing the combo offstage on places like Yoshi's and FoD.

 

[Zoa]

Appreciate the info, Risky. Awesome job as always.

 

[yuedi]

Did anyone find a replacement for ledge snapping from on-stage? I mean it's still possible in 3.5 but only at certain distances. Also, how about extremespeed ledge stall? Is there a completely invincible ledge stall tech?

 

[Darkgun]

@ Y yuedi
Extreme Speed hogging is still kind of a thing. As you noted, you can snap from a specific distance, and to my knowledge, you can shorten that distance slightly if you short hop beforehand (though I'm in no position at present to confirm this). Additionally, the invincible ledgestall is not possible, especially since invincibility goes gained from ledge goes away after 5 consecutive ledge grabs without touching the stage. And to my understanding, Lucario's ledge grab box is now smaller, so as a result I can only seem to ledge snap if I release ledge and jump first.

 

[yuedi]

I still find it incredibly hard to believe that lucario's vertical grab box got increased as stated in the official 3.5 change log. Back in 3.02, I could sweet spot from beneath the ledge on FD, never exposing myself to any hitbox from onstage. Now, I just ride the contour of the stage downwards and SD. To sweetspot, you have to curve it so that the path of extreme speed is completely parallel to the stage, making it susceptible to d-tilts and what-not.