Low Tier Potential!

[Hunybear]

What low tier characters do you think has the most untapped potential and why? Who's meta do you think is grossly under developed? What are some little known tech for these characters.
*Young Link
*Link
*Donkey Kong
*Zelda
*Roy
*Mewtwo
*Game & Watch
*Ness
*Bowser
*Pichu
*Kirby

 

[1MachGO]

Mobility is the must-have commodity in the current meta. In that respect, I would argue that Young Link, G&W, Mewtwo, Ness, and Pichu all possess attributes more valuable than Ganon's and I wouldn't be surprised if any of these characters outranked the king of evil given the right player and necessary development.

Link might have some stuff worth researching but I would say everyone else is hopeless even though they are under developed.

 

[Hunybear]

Mobility is the must-have commodity in the current meta. In that respect, I would argue that Young Link, G&W, Mewtwo, Ness, and Pichu all possess attributes more valuable than Ganon's and I wouldn't be surprised if any of these characters outranked the king of evil given the right player and necessary development.

Link might have some stuff worth researching but I would say everyone else is hopeless even though they are under developed.

Ganon is very mobile with platforms. Young Link and Mewtwo I could see passing up Ganon but Pichu is truly worthless. Game and Watch and Pichu are the lightest character in the game and explode if they get hit with anything if there over 100%. Link doesn't really have to move if because he has all the tools to bait and wall people out. His movement despite being really awful is worked around with the applications of the tools he has. (disjointed hit boxes)

 

[mrdoingboing]

I've always thought that Young Link has been the most underdeveloped low tier. His floaty matchups, particularly puff, are all pretty doable, and he definitely has the mobility and projectiles to control a lot of space in the neutral game against even the top 8. He really does struggle actually getting the kill on any stage that isn't YS, but I think he'll be able to do a lot more once people start optimizing his punish game.

 

[Plunder]

A lot of YL's moves can be CC'ed easily or counter punished on hit and his weight plus fall speed makes him easy to combo and KO. If he had Link's range on all his moves and his grab he'd have so much more potential.

Ganon accidentally kills things without trying and controls a lot of space around him rather fast (and he has a lot of disjoint). None of these low tiers would ever pass Ganon, that's silly.

 

[pagedMov]

In my opinion, none of the low tiers have any real potential. The game has been out for over 14 years, if they had some sort of ground breaking technique, it would have been found by now.

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

Definitely G&W, his godlike CC and good combos on fast fallers make him pretty awesome.

 

[Plunder]

Definitely G&W, his godlike CC and good combos on fast fallers make him pretty awesome.

Yea but his CC doesn't last long because of his crap light weight.

He literally has no defense or defensive options. it's really depressing, and I know since I've played him a lot against top tiers.

he can't powershield, he can't punish anything really OoS, he can't really shield grab reliably, he can't CC grab or CC counter attack like I mentioned if he has more than 30% to most moves.....his recovery is actually super easy to ledge guard once you actually know how to. He can't really escape combos and he gets comboed and CG'ed fairly easy. If you Up-B out of pressure you're trajectory is very easy to follow and punish.

He has some amazing offensive range, movement, and options.....but they are not fast enough. So every opening you create has to be a read or preemptive and spaced just right. He has some interesting ledge play, but again once you know what you're doing against him it's all very easy to punish. He's also quite clunky on any stage wth platforms even though he has a great wave dash, his aerials just aren't fast enough or useful enough to use fluidly between plats.

I personally don't think he has much more potential than we've already seen, but I do think he can still easily bop most top tiers that are clueless about the MU.

 

[1MachGO]

A lot of YL's moves can be CC'ed easily or counter punished on hit and his weight plus fall speed makes him easy to combo and KO. If he had Link's range on all his moves and his grab he'd have so much more potential.

Ganon accidentally kills things without trying and controls a lot of space around him rather fast (and he has a lot of disjoint). None of these low tiers would ever pass Ganon, that's silly.

The aspects that made Ganon useful are now relics. He wholly depends on opponent error. Strong moves don't compensate for his lack of a dash dance, laughable out of shield options, camp-susceptible vertical mobility, or absence of extended combos. He relies on consecutive raw hits and the occasional trade to KO. Meanwhile, the opponent needs to somehow not go to town on his extremely combo friendly attributes and **** recovery. I seriously cannot think of a relevant char who doesn't out-punish and utterly out-neutral him in the head to head. His gradual descent in viability proves that winning neutral is more valuable than having strong, individual attacks. Players are just too good, now.

In that sense, being better than Ganon isn't that much of an achievement. However, it does signify that you can realistically play some aspects of neutral like being able to safely maintain advantage vs. shield or do something when stuck in shield. YL is susceptible to CC but he actually has options to combat his weaknesses.

Ganon is very mobile with platforms. Young Link and Mewtwo I could see passing up Ganon but Pichu is truly worthless. Game and Watch and Pichu are the lightest character in the game and explode if they get hit with anything if there over 100%. Link doesn't really have to move if because he has all the tools to bait and wall people out. His movement despite being really awful is worked around with the applications of the tools he has. (disjointed hit boxes)

Pichu has a solid dash dance, 2 frames of landing recovery from up b, a great nair that can create unreactable situations (and is +1 on block), a powerful usmash, and amazing throws. He will always be invalidated by being a much worse version of Pikachu but the aforementioned attributes make him better than Ganon on principle, imo. High weight is easily the most overrated form of defense in the game.

Not having movement is also not compensated for by Link's projectile game because you can just rush him down and prevent him from using it. Boomerang takes like 27 frames to come out and bomb is about 40.

In my opinion, none of the low tiers have any real potential. The game has been out for over 14 years, if they had some sort of ground breaking technique, it would have been found by now.

Yoshi was considered low tier until like a year and a half ago.

Players will dictate who gets developed and how people perceive them. If there is no one playing character x, we can't really understand their potential in application.

 

[Dolla Pills]

At least we knew Yoshi had a parry and armor on his double jump. There aren't really characters with obscure but difficult tech (aside from maybe Ness) so it's much more unlikely that a character such as Donkey Kong will rise in the rankings.

In general I expect the lower characters to stay where they are currently. Sure if someone is inexperienced in the match up they might lose to a low tier, or if the low tier player is god like and knows everything the opponent will do then they will win too, but really they just don't have as many good options as the better characters. It's hard to optimize something that isn't there.

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

At least we knew Yoshi had a parry and armor on his double jump. There aren't really characters with obscure but difficult tech (aside from maybe Ness) so it's much more unlikely that a character such as Donkey Kong will rise in the rankings.

In general I expect the lower characters to stay where they are currently. Sure if someone is inexperienced in the match up they might lose to a low tier, or if the low tier player is god like and knows everything the opponent will do then they will win too, but really they just don't have as many good options as the better characters. It's hard to optimize something that isn't there.

Tbh, I think pichu and the like are better than DK and Bowser.

 

[Dolla Pills]

Tbh, I think pichu and the like are better than DK and Bowser.

I'm not certain DK is quite on Bowser's level, he feels like he has somewhat decent ways to space a few moves and has good punishes off of grab whereas Bowser just hopes for bad DI or bad pressure to up B out of.

EDIT:
But to be clear I gave DK for a reason because sure he has a few options but he is altogether slow and bad and won't be seeing any improvement any time soon.

 

[Hunybear]

Honestly i think that low tier players can shrug things off a lot easier than high tier players. They'll always have that charecter john and say oh well it was just fox. That's why almost all the low tier "heroes" I've met are scrubby and honestly i beat them in a lot of ditto's.

Pichu has a solid dash dance, 2 frames of landing recovery from up b, a great nair that can create unreactable situations (and is +1 on block), a powerful usmash, and amazing throws. He will always be invalidated by being a much worse version of Pikachu but the aforementioned attributes make him better than Ganon on principle, imo. High weight is easily the most overrated form of defense in the game.

Not having movement is also not compensated for by Link's projectile game because you can just rush him down and prevent him from using it. Boomerang takes like 27 frames to come out and bomb is about 40.

I'm not saying that Link has the tools to completely make up for his glaring weakness (getting run down) because its very VERY obvious, but we can minimize the ease in which players exploit that weakness. admittedly pichu is faster than link... faster than a lot of the cast with better movement than even peach in many aspects. Pichu might move like a mid or high tier character and so does Game and Watch but those don't make up for there glaring handicaps. Movement is a huge part don't get me wrong.

 

[Hunybear]

I'm not certain DK is quite on Bowser's level, he feels like he has somewhat decent ways to space a few moves and has good punishes off of grab whereas Bowser just hopes for bad DI or bad pressure to up B out of.

EDIT:
But to be clear I gave DK for a reason because sure he has a few options but he is altogether slow and bad and won't be seeing any improvement any time soon.

i'd say DK is better than BowBow and pichu. DK has ok movement and some kill set ups. Even ok matchups against mid tiers.
ALSOOO fun facts! link has a completely invincible ledge stall just by ledge hoping and Mewtwo has a completely invincible ledge stall with his up-B. Just wanna drop something for you all to add on too.

 

[Scootch]

There are a lot of characters in Melee that i think have high potential but are not good on the tier list like Kirby, Mew2, and Pichu. I also think that Yoshi should be higher than he is now, even if the is mid tier.

 

[Plunder]

A ton of characters have fully invincible ledge stalls....*note* that Pichu's causes him to take damage each time.


Fox
Falco
Shiek
Falcon
Pika
Ganon


Yoshi - kind of is invincible, not many can get through egg stall barrage....
Link - only because he has a special cliff hang animation length
Roy
Pichu
M2
Zelda
Bowser - very easy to do

Most others can hax dash it, but that's tough to maintain :' |

 

[Dolla Pills]

i'd say DK is better than BowBow and pichu. DK has ok movement and some kill set ups. Even ok matchups against mid tiers.
ALSOOO fun facts! link has a completely invincible ledge stall just by ledge hoping and Mewtwo has a completely invincible ledge stall with his up-B. Just wanna drop something for you all to add on too.

Mewtwo even has leniency on his ledge stall, most characters have to be frame perfect (I think Sheik might be the only other one that has leniency). In general he has a good recovery but I feel like his slow DJ might be exploitable at the ledge.

 

[Flippy Flippersen]

So we learned from this thread low tier characters would be better if people played them but still not on the level of the top tiers.


Revolutionary...

From the list you made all characters basically get run over super hard by the toptiers. With exceptions of young link vs peach/puff and link vs marth/peach and only those matchups all of these characters have very costly flaws which pretty much guarantees they won't beat the toptiers. These characters unlike yoshi also don't have character exclusive mechanics that will make them as viable as amsa makes yoshi. (you can argue djc for ness/mewtwo but yoshi/peach will always do djc better.)

Young Link/Link/Donkey Kong/Mewtwo get run over cause they have no fast attack options with only average or worse movement speed.

Zelda/Bowser get run over cause they're insanely slow don't have a dashdance/combo game and have only 1 usable move (zelda's bair/fair which is basically the same move but in a different direction and bowsers up b (alternatively zelda's down b but that would beat the point of arguing zeldas utilities))

Roy/Kirby get run over cause their moves simply don't function. They lack knockback and hitstun.

Game & Watch gets run over cause he has no shield no real oos gets hit offstage super early and is easy to edgeguard/kill in general with only an average neutral.

Ness/Pichu get run over cause they don't have range (pichu kinda makes up for this with speed but once you learn to cc his aerials he doesn't really have other things to really be fast with(not to mention most toptiers are actually faster)

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

I think DK has the most potential out of a lot of characters, actually. Although, there is this: Qerb Stomped.

 

[Dolla Pills]

I think DK has the most potential out of a lot of characters, actually.

Why

 

[Delta Chae]

Game & Watch gets run over cause he has no shield no real oos gets hit offstage super early and is easy to edgeguard/kill in general with only an average neutral.

Don't forget that he can't even L-cancel most of his aerials which severely limits the situations that said aerials are safe in.

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

There are a lot of characters in Melee that i think have high potential but are not good on the tier list like Kirby, Mew2, and Pichu. I also think that Yoshi should be higher than he is now, even if the is mid tier.

Kirby literally has no options, he's just ****ing terrible, lmao. Pichu i believe can get better on the tier list. M2 has potential, but nothing higher than mid tier.

 

[Danny of AD 1]

Of these characters I think none of them except maybe yoshi will reach the tier rank of 13 I could be wrong but gnw has no defensive recovery or aerial abilities Ness has only 1 flaw his terrible recovery but roy pichu Ness Zelda m2 link young link and mario all have untapped potential gnw is definitely not as viable because the game was released before he was finished

 

[CAUP]

Soooo much ignorance in this thread by people who think they know what they're talking about XD

 

[gmBottles]

Soooo much ignorance in this thread by people who think they know what they're talking about XD

I was just about to say the same thing. Specifically, this:

The aspects that made Ganon useful are now relics. He wholly depends on opponent error. Strong moves don't compensate for his lack of a dash dance, laughable out of shield options, camp-susceptible vertical mobility, or absence of extended combos. He relies on consecutive raw hits and the occasional trade to KO. Meanwhile, the opponent needs to somehow not go to town on his extremely combo friendly attributes and **** recovery. I seriously cannot think of a relevant char who doesn't out-punish and utterly out-neutral him in the head to head. His gradual descent in viability proves that winning neutral is more valuable than having strong, individual attacks. Players are just too good, now.

In that sense, being better than Ganon isn't that much of an achievement. However, it does signify that you can realistically play some aspects of neutral like being able to safely maintain advantage vs. shield or do something when stuck in shield. YL is susceptible to CC but he actually has options to combat his weaknesses.

Lol
Ganon is definitely better than all of the lower tiered characters. Just because he doesn't have combos as long as other characters doesn't make him worse. (obviously he is worse than the top tiers, but that isn't the reason) You aren't taking into account his edge guarding capabilities, his movement options with wavelands (something I figured players like Bizzaro Flame had made pretty obvious) and his reads. Not to mention his big hitboxes and big damage, though his long landing lag is an issue for sure.

 

[Yogi Backair]

I feel like a lot of the people touting the amazing qualities of these low tiers play them against bots, I promise your pichu won't make it out of pools in a tournament lol

 

[gmBottles]

I feel like a lot of the people touting the amazing qualities of these low tiers play them against bots, I promise your pichu won't make it out of pools in a tournament lol

This seems super common amongst these low tier heroes. Anyone who has played a low tier seriously in a tournament knows the struggle, and that they simply don't stand a chance against most top tiers, assuming the person they're playing against knows what they're doing.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I've always thought that Young Link has been the most underdeveloped low tier. His floaty matchups, particularly puff, are all pretty doable, and he definitely has the mobility and projectiles to control a lot of space in the neutral game against even the top 8. He really does struggle actually getting the kill on any stage that isn't YS, but I think he'll be able to do a lot more once people start optimizing his punish game.

I've been saying this a lot this year. I picked up YL as a secondary in the winter/spring, and he has become one of my favorites.

He has surprisingly good natural properties: decent jumpsquat, amazing spotdodge, low lag on aerials, and a fairly solid recovery (A+ safety/mixups, B- distance). His weaknesses are being light and having a sucky roll.

The thing that makes YL potentially OP are his bombs. For one, attacking through them is impossible for most characters. Once the bomb hits, it is a guaranteed second hit. If they shield the bomb, YL can actually shield pressure extremely safely. YL can do bomb throw -> fair their shield -> sh backward -> regrab bomb -> repeat and it is completely safe in my experience. Oh yeah, and he has a 1 frame OoS option with z-drop bomb, and if it hits a spacie shine it causes a lot of reflector lag >=)

A lot of YL's moves can be CC'ed easily or counter punished on hit and his weight plus fall speed makes him easy to combo and KO. If he had Link's range on all his moves and his grab he'd have so much more potential.

Ganon accidentally kills things without trying and controls a lot of space around him rather fast (and he has a lot of disjoint). None of these low tiers would ever pass Ganon, that's silly.

What of YL's is CCable? If I approach you with his fair, you cannot CC it; even at 0% I can link fair->dsmash if you try to punish the fair with CC (you can shield before the dsmash tho - but thats why I space my moves). If I throw a bomb at you, CC is not effective.

My belief is that YL beats Ganon on every stage except YS. Ganon is simply too slow to stop YL from pulling a bomb, and he has very few options to navigate through YL's projectiles and approach. Ganon mostly has to wait for YL to come close and run into his moves, but that isn't a plan that works consistently.

 

[Hunybear]

Oh yeah, and he has a 1 frame OoS option with z-drop bomb, and if it hits a spacie shine it causes a lot of reflector lag >=)

What of YL's is CCable? If I approach you with his fair, you cannot CC it; even at 0% I can link fair->dsmash if you try to punish the fair with CC (you can shield before the dsmash tho - but thats why I space my moves). If I throw a bomb at you, CC is not effective..

First off Bomb drop is 1 frame? That's ****ing awesome! I use it but maybe I need to tighten up my timing. Also you cant CC YL's fair but you got some balls if you approach with it lol. Honestly I don't think CCing is that great against YL cuz most of his approaches are after you get hit with a projectile. Still WD OOS messes YL and Link up. I mean what can they do but run away. Your shield pressure is solid tho and I really like it.

So we learned from this thread low tier characters would be better if people played them but still not on the level of the top tiers.


Revolutionary...

From the list you made all characters basically get run over super hard by the toptiers. With exceptions of young link vs peach/puff and link vs marth/peach and only those matchups all of these characters have very costly flaws which pretty much guarantees they won't beat the toptiers. These characters unlike yoshi also don't have character exclusive mechanics that will make them as viable as amsa makes yoshi. (you can argue djc for ness/mewtwo but yoshi/peach will always do djc better.)

Young Link/Link/Donkey Kong/Mewtwo get run over cause they have no fast attack options with only average or worse movement speed.

Zelda/Bowser get run over cause they're insanely slow don't have a dashdance/combo game and have only 1 usable move (zelda's bair/fair which is basically the same move but in a different direction and bowsers up b (alternatively zelda's down b but that would beat the point of arguing zeldas utilities))

Roy/Kirby get run over cause their moves simply don't function. They lack knockback and hitstun.

Game & Watch gets run over cause he has no shield no real oos gets hit offstage super early and is easy to edgeguard/kill in general with only an average neutral.

Ness/Pichu get run over cause they don't have range (pichu kinda makes up for this with speed but once you learn to cc his aerials he doesn't really have other things to really be fast with(not to mention most toptiers are actually faster)

Im saddened by your post... but *clap *clap *clap for helping every one understand why these characters suck in a condescending way. If you really want people to think your smart you would think of ways to minimalize the HUGE weaknesses of these characters so playing them at higher levels becomes more manageable and prominent in the community.

!!! IMPORTANT !!!
Lol is this the "my low tier is better than Ganon Thread"? Cuz honestly I think Ganon is on Doc's Level

 

[gmBottles]

Im saddened by your post... but *clap *clap *clap for helping every one understand why these characters suck in a condescending way. If you really want people to think your smart you would think of ways to minimalize the HUGE weaknesses of these characters so playing them at higher levels becomes more manageable and prominent in the community.

You should not be trying to minimize their weaknesses. That doesn't make them go away. To play a low tier you need to be aware of these weaknesses, otherwise you will get bodied.

 

[Hunybear]

You should not be trying to minimize their weaknesses. That doesn't make them go away. To play a low tier you need to be aware of these weaknesses, otherwise you will get bodied.

I didn't say ignore. I mean minimize you opponents opportunities to abuse the weaknesses present in your character. Of course you should always be aware of them.

 

[gmBottles]

I didn't say ignore. I mean minimize you opponents opportunities to abuse the weaknesses present in your character. Of course you should always be aware of them.

But that's the thing, you can't. At a high level you can not avoid them. That's why you don't see Kage getting as far in nationals as players of the same skill that use better characters.

 

[Hunybear]

Dropping a fun fact I heard somewhere.
Donkey Kong's Fair can't be auto-canceled. Idk if this is true but I tried and I can't. Does anyone else have this?

 

[Hunybear]

But that's the thing, you can't. At a high level you can not avoid them. That's why you don't see Kage getting as far in nationals as players of the same skill that use better characters.

You can't completely get rid of these problems no. Your right. That is why I said minimalize and was very carful to word it that way. So yes you can minimalize the opportunity's for someone to exploit your weaknesses. That's not to say it'll make that weakness disappear (or in most cased cant even make up for them).

 

[Plunder]

I
What of YL's is CCable? If I approach you with his fair, you cannot CC it; even at 0% I can link fair->dsmash if you try to punish the fair with CC (you can shield before the dsmash tho - but thats why I space my moves). If I throw a bomb at you, CC is not effective.

My belief is that YL beats Ganon on every stage except YS. Ganon is simply too slow to stop YL from pulling a bomb, and he has very few options to navigate through YL's projectiles and approach. Ganon mostly has to wait for YL to come close and run into his moves, but that isn't a plan that works consistently.

That's nice and all but I don't care about the Ganon YL MU and that's not even relevant to what I said.

Now if you want to compare YL's MUs on the top/high tiers vs Ganon's MUs on the top tiers/high then that is worth discussing.

I think Ganon has a much easier time against most of the top/high tiers than YL. YL excels in a couple, but we still haven't really seen overwhelming evidence at a high level for that even with Axe and Armada using him as a specific CP.

Dropping a fun fact I heard somewhere.
Donkey Kong's Fair can't be auto-canceled. Idk if this is true but I tried and I can't. Does anyone else have this?

No it can't this is in the frame data spreadsheet and the wiki I think. I believe it's unique in this aspect.

 

[Hunybear]

That's nice and all but I don't care about the Ganon YL MU and that's not even relevant to what I said.

Now if you want to compare YL's MUs on the top/high tiers vs Ganon's MUs on the top tiers/high then that is worth discussing.

I think Ganon has a much easier time against most of the top/high tiers than YL. YL excels in a couple, but we still haven't really seen overwhelming evidence at a high level for that even with Axe and Armada using him as a specific CP.

No it can't this is in the frame data spreadsheet and the wiki I think. It's the only one that can't (I believe).

IDK YL dose get bodied by Fox, Falco, Sheik, but I think the other top 8 characters are doable for YL. As far as YL matchups against Ganon's on high tiers... Ganon MU are better I think. YL handles a lot of situations better than Ganon but the kill potential isn't there for YL.

 

[Plunder]

Ah okay, you cannot discuss the character so now you insult my person. Thanks for this enlightening discussion.

So should you also take your own advice?

So you're saying you're completely ignorant of the character, but you nonetheless want to make assumptions and assertions. Gotcha.

I can discuss the character, but it's sort of hard to do that with an ignorant doof blurting out the above right off the bat....based on basically nothing, and you yourself have brought almost no concrete counter-points or discussion to the table. So basically the same thing you are accusing me of, you're committing right now.

So why do you think Link is used FAR more as a main than Young Link? Do you think there is some conspiracy and that Young Link is not in the right spot on the tier list? Is he secretly able to be mained against all the higher tiers?

I'm guessing from your arrogance and confidence in the character that you've beaten some high level top tier players from many regions with your Young Link.

Do you know something secret about Young Link that none of us don't already know?

If so feel free to share....or you can continue not being productive at all and making dumb assumptions about others. Your choice.

 

[Diabolical PIe]

Well. This all got rather hostile pretty quickly. I'm just gonna ignore all that goofiness and try to bring the discussion back on track. I think that pretty much any character below Luigi doesn't really have any chance of winning any serious tournaments, and Luigi is pushing it (oh, and I'd put Yoshi above Luigi, just to mention that). There's a lot of flexibility in the low/mid tier realm, and definitely room for improvement, but aside from MAYBE Young Link, I don't think any of the characters have the potential to break out into what could begin to be considered "viable." At best, He could move up into that upper mid tier category with Ganon, Doc, Mario, DK, etc. So basically, where he is now, only as an accepted mid tier, not a low tier.

As a former Young Link main, I may be a little biased in my assertions, but I do believe that he's the only character out of all the low tiers to get to that point. I think he will excell as an obscure counterpick character for other characters that struggle in floaty matchups, and that's about it.

 

[Comet7]

Damn J$, the most two face there ever was. Now you're just straight up lying. The same condescending elitist attitude, you both are like peas in a pod.

Well it's sad to see supposed veterans be the most hypocritical and conniving. So pile on keep up the circlejerk of likes if it makes you feel good, starting to expect this type of behavior on this site.

Both times I actually tried to bring it back to a relevant discussion. The only thing both of you have attempted in the past 8 posts is bullying and trying to throw around join dates as your only argument. Sort of sad really to see adults act this way.

stuff that answers initial questions asked in this post: underlined
useless crap: strikethrough

i think mewtwo and pichu could develop a bit more. they have crucial tech floors that if not reached, severely limit them (more than they are already). i've seen people saying pivot down tilts help mewtwo's neutral a lot (which i find easy to believe), and pichu needs to not mess anything up because if he gets hit it's gg. that's how the metagame is evolving anyway; most people are getting more technical and are learning how to enlarge their punishes, so characters with linear neutrals like zelda and ganon are getting worse. theoretically, i don't think ganon has any dominating advantage over most low tiers (I'm not going to act like i know a reasonable amount about ALL of them to say something like "all low tier characters have 50/50 MUs against ganon"). maybe kirby as well, but I can't see what hasn't been figured out about him. he has an okay ground game, but his punishes are lackluster and he's easily gimped. the lack luster punishes part is a bit from my personal experience, but i fail to see how kirby can have sizable punishes against people that aren't falcon / marth / spacies off stage. if anybody knows more than me about this, then please tell me, since i actually like messing around with kirby.

 

[CAUP]

Plunder :3

@ Diabolical PIe
I've played your young link and it was solid. I'm sad to hear it's a secondary now.

I think young link is the last viable (baaaarrreeely) character also. And I think his learning curve is extremely steep. To be a proficient young link, I believe z drop waved dashes are just essential.

Gannon is overrated, just going to be honest. I play a Gannon all the time, my brother, and I have played other solid Gannons, Yort. The character survives off the opponent messing up. That is truly it.