Low Level Ylink Tech Skills: the Changeup

[ianisthewalrus]

I posted this to reddit, so if the occasionally thing does not make sense....


As you may have noticed by now by the flood of gfycats ( see reddit ), I am not a very technically sound player of the game. I lack speed, and frankly I ignore most of the basic tech skill many players take for granted (hell, I almost never even short hop). That said, maybe I have some insights for the new and uninitiated, or old farts like myself.

It may seem obvious on some level, but varying the speed of your attacks can land you hits when they otherwise would not. The two most obvious, low tech skill cases of this with Ylink are fsmash and the boomerang. By varying the speed of execution, you can condition your opponent to expect one situation and give them another. The analogy I draw in my mind is like a pitcher in baseball throwing a changeup (and something so simple in smash can be literally just as effective as it is in baseball!).

Fsmash's second hit is actually quite a powerful KOer, though difficult to land. You can actually vary the speed of the second hit after the first by up to a half second. You can use this to your advantage by conditioning your opponent to either shield drop early, or shield later, much in the same way a pitcher will use off speed pitches with fastballs to sneak in strikes (and to take the baseball analogy even further, you can even pitch intentional "balls" by using it in a situation where you do not intend to hit your opponent, but show them the timing, and keep safe from a punish, for example if they are landing and you throw out an fsmash and they escape to a platform above you instead of challenging the string hitbox of your attack). If you can get your opponent in a situation where they need to shield your first hit of fsmash, you may be able to trick them into shield dropping before the second after a few attempts, by giving them a few fastballs, executing the 2nd hit as fast as possible, before letting one loose where you wait a beat before the 2nd hit. There are some "gotchas" to be careful of though. First and foremost, you need to space well. If you go too deep, it is trivial for the opponent to shield grab between your hits. Also, if you delay too long, and are in range, they may even be able to attack you with a normal strike. Another issue is the initial strike of your fsmash may be parried, in which case, you will be unable to execute your 2nd strike, and likely will not be in favorable range for anything but a whooping (maybe a quick triple jab to keep them at bay?). Keep in mind, that you will inch forward while executing this attack! This timing mixup can really be used in any situation, even missing the first hit and coming quickly with the 2nd can catch an opponent off guard, and that is the key here, catching them off guard.

The 2nd obvious "changeup" in Young links arsenal is the boomerang. You can smash throw, or do a normal (but for me harder to execute?) throw, that greatly varies the speed and distance of the rang. The slower toss will result in a boomerang that lingers near the point it turns around. You can use this to your advantage by placing it over an opponent grabbing ledge or grounded to dissuade them from recovering, or to control mid range space near you, particularly while evading around platforms on smaller stages (sorry, no KO potential here!). Due to its slow speed, you can also cause and opponent to turtle in shield for a beat longer while it passes.

BONUS: A third and slightly less useful changeup for me personally (but likely more useful for others) is you can also vary the power of your bomb throws with smash or normal throws. The c stick makes for very automatic smash throws. This can help you place your bombs on target, but I dont find it really mixes anything up, its more of an accuracy improvement (though I think smash throw does have a higher velocity? correct me if I am wrong).

This is probably old hat for a lot of you, but timing mixups work everywhere with all kinds of moves, these just happen to be built into our character, and (especially in the case of fsmash) underutilized from what I see. None of this is going to win you a match by itself, but one unexpected mixup of an fsmash can very easily take a stock, or at least put your opponent offstage at a relatively low %. Just look at how well utilized the changeup is in baseball. Do not underestimate this!

Also, Ylink board is dead... is smash over?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Fsmash is terrible. Every character can jump or CC and punish you before the 2nd hit comes out. The only times it works is when the opponent messes up. Sometimes I use it like a marth sideb, first hit to catch an immediate action and the 2nd hit to catch the delayed action, but still its not a reliable choice.


YL boards are dead because there isn't much reason to play this character. You probably won't even get top 8 at a local. I just play him for fun against people who can't beat my higher secondaries like falcon and peach.

 

[ianisthewalrus]

then smash indeed is over. everyone give up and play another game. *la la la lala laa*

the whole point of using it is because no one else uses it. gonna have to think outside of the box sometimes ;-)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Picking a low tier doesn't make you special or cool. Winning games and being good at the game are what make people respect you. I'm probably one of the top5 young link players, and I have taken him to tournaments numerous times, but you won't catch me playing him in any serious game. Theres not a single matchup that my sheik or fox wouldn't do better in.

If you love a low tier character, get good with marth/sheik/fox/falco/falcon first. Beat your PR players, get good at the game. Then go back and learn the low tier character and play him. You will be able to apply the fundamentals of the game to your character and better understand what tools are useful, when. If you just play your low tier, you will never get good at the game and any success you see will be because your opponents don't know what they should be doing.

 

[ianisthewalrus]

I fear you have misunderstood me. I meant the whole point of using fsmash, not ylink.

Thanks for the advice, but frankly, if I did not play ylink, I would just stop playing this game. Smash would indeed be over. Beating PR players or garnering respect, or being special or cool is not why I play smash. I just like to play ylink, and I'll be here posting dumb stuff until someone who actually knows what their talking about revives the board. Ive got many more ideas too ;-)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Well, timing mixups like your OP are pretty basic to the game. As you get better at the game, you'll find things that work. You shouldn't want to have someone knowledgeable come correct you; you should want to be able to determine good and bad for yourself.

 

[ianisthewalrus]

alrighty, then you will just have to put up with me :-).

I agree they are basic to the game, but my argument is they can add some utility to the otherwise nearly useless fsmash.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

If you're using fsmash, don't even try to hit the first hit. Plan ahead for them to come in, and time the 2nd hit to match their approach. Still not great, but it works if you know they are going to commit.

 

[ianisthewalrus]

yeah, its easiest setup is catching dthrow techrolls for me.

 

[Brando550]

I want to post more on this forum, but from my observations it seems like the average YL player who browses these forums doesn't have much of a drive or the tourney experience to find out YL's max potential. People think we've already found it, but I don't believe that.

The discussion's here are almost solely focused on how to fight spacies, which will not help out with any of the other characters. We also don't have a top-player representative that posts here regularly.

Axe is the only top player I can watch to get information that I need for match-ups, but even that is limited since he plays YL similarly to his Pikachu. Because of this, I have to discover the majority if the information I need from my own tournament experience, since I don't have a training partner.

I went to Big House 6 a few weekends ago and got to money match Axe himself in YL dittos, to which I found out I still have some ways to go; but, out of the 3 matches we played, I was able to get Axe to 2 stocks every time. He told me he liked my YL as well, so that was reassuring. There are things that he doesn't do that I think could be utilized more, but that's just me.
________________________________________________________

Rant over, I'll respond to what you actually posted about. Personally I think you are on the right track. With so few YL players out there, the majority of people forget what all of your moves are. You can mix-up your shield pressure or spacing with your second F-smash to catch people off-guard. Same for boomerang.

Throwing my boomerang past my opponent has saved me a multitude of times. If they go to grab me and try to get a few pummels in before they throw, my boomerang will return to hit my opponent in the back which frees me from the grab.

*Edit: Could you post a link to your reddit post? I'd rather not have to dig through the pages to find it if at all possible.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Rant over, I'll respond to what you actually posted about. Personally I think you are on the right track. With so few YL players out there, the majority of people forget what all of your moves are.

I'm not saying don't take advantage of people's lack of knowledge. But do not plan your strategy around that assumption, that will only lead you to walls and plateaus.

The reason we discuss spacies is because that is what you will face most of the time in tournament. If you can't get past simple spacie things, then your character is invalid in the meta. Knowing how to beat sheik and marth isn't as important, but those are definitely more winnable matchups for YL.

There are only two ways to progress the YL meta farther. One, you learn to use bombs better. Bombs are possibly the highest priority attack in the game, and it combos into YL's aerials. Z-drop bomb out of shield is essentially a shine OoS. The only downsides are that it takes time to pull the bomb (60 frames) and it explodes after a few seconds. If you can find a consistent strategy to pull bombs, while also avoiding holding the bomb for too long, you can unlock a very strong neutral game for the character. I haven't found one that works reliably against Fox or Falcon.

The other advance that could be made is with his normals. His nair can be 0 on shield, which means late nair->early nair will stop shield grab attempts. Bair also has some strong properties, but its far from overpowered. Uair is possibly the best anti-air in the game, it will cleanly beat Link's dair in a direct challenge, but it also has a lot of landing lag. Dair is a move most YLs dont use enough in neutral, I think most people don't know how to auto cancel it properly. Eg, if you fullhop on the top platform and land on the ground level (any stage with a top platform) it will auto cancel. It also auto cancels in a fullhop on the ground level, provided you hit once with it. You can also fullhop dair off stage and recover with upb even if you don't hit anything. Fair is probably YL's worst aerial, but it still has uses. It does less damage than nair, so it's worse on shield, but it has a good disjoint and range in front of YL. You can SH fair off stage and upb onto stage, so its potentially a strong edgeguard/gimp tool (but I usually just nair anyways).

Either way, I dont see YL keeping up with higher tiered characters. Especially the characters with quick move speeds and strong punish games, such as fox, falcon, marth and sheik. Once they learn to deal with boomerang, there isn't much to stop them from getting in your face as soon as you try to pull a bomb, and they are going to beat you normals vs normals if you don't pull a bomb. Anytime they hit you, it should be your stock, but YL can hardly do the same in reverse. The longest string YL can do is eg, uair -> fullhop bair -> dj dair but mostly you will get single hits and two-fers.

 

[Brando550]

The reason we discuss spacies is because that is what you will face most of the time in tournament. If you can't get past simple spacie things, then your character is invalid in the meta. Knowing how to beat sheik and marth isn't as important, but those are definitely more winnable matchups for YL.

I get what you're saying. That's true for most people's experiences in the USA and Canada. For me, though, in my own experiences at tournies, I have faced a lot more Sheiks, Peaches, and Marths than spacies. That's probably because I live in Minnesota, which has one of the strangest PR character diversity compared to the majority of America. Our top players have included a kirby (Triple R), a samus, and a ganondorf, among the normal cast of top tiers.

At our state's monthly this month, I got out of pools for the first time since I started competing seriously at the beginning of this year. In my run, I faced a Peach, C. Falcon, Ganondorf, Marth, and a Sheik. Not 1 spacey. At other monthlies I have faced spacies, but I have been able to get wins on plenty of them. I've almost beaten people who play spacies that are on our state's PR as well. So that's the real reason I want knowledge of how to fight against Marths and Sheiks moreso than spacies. But after having studied the matches and doing my own theorycrafting, I have been able to come up with a solution to these characters for the most part.

There are only two ways to progress the YL meta farther. One, you learn to use bombs better. Bombs are possibly the highest priority attack in the game, and it combos into YL's aerials. Z-drop bomb out of shield is essentially a shine OoS. The only downsides are that it takes time to pull the bomb (60 frames) and it explodes after a few seconds. If you can find a consistent strategy to pull bombs, while also avoiding holding the bomb for too long, you can unlock a very strong neutral game for the character. I haven't found one that works reliably against Fox or Falcon.

This is very true. I've started to throw bombs at close range and CC the explosion so I can grab my opponent, since no one I've faced understands that you can CC it. Other ways I've tried to implement bombs is by predicting when my opponent is going to jump. I say this because I've noticed a lot of people retreat into the air and the top platforms to stay safe, where I can just hit them freely with a bomb. There is still lots of work for me to do, but I'm getting there.

The other advance that could be made is with his normals. His nair can be 0 on shield, which means late nair->early nair will stop shield grab attempts. Bair also has some strong properties, but its far from overpowered. Uair is possibly the best anti-air in the game, it will cleanly beat Link's dair in a direct challenge, but it also has a lot of landing lag. Dair is a move most YLs dont use enough in neutral, I think most people don't know how to auto cancel it properly. Eg, if you fullhop on the top platform and land on the ground level (any stage with a top platform) it will auto cancel. It also auto cancels in a fullhop on the ground level, provided you hit once with it. You can also fullhop dair off stage and recover with upb even if you don't hit anything. Fair is probably YL's worst aerial, but it still has uses. It does less damage than nair, so it's worse on shield, but it has a good disjoint and range in front of YL. You can SH fair off stage and upb onto stage, so its potentially a strong edgeguard/gimp tool (but I usually just nair anyways).

This is the area I believe as well needs to be more explored. In my ground game I've been implementing a lot of defensive jabs. Moreso than other fighting games I've noticed people like to grab *a lot*, especially when a player knows they have a chain grab on YL; so because of this, I use defensive jabs to stop people from trying to grab me (however, I throw bombs at Sheiks rather than trying to stop a grab with a jab because 1 [down-throw] + [f-air] can equal death most of the time).

YL's [Up-tilt] is also underrated. It can be used similar to how Foxes and Falcos use their up-tilts, but YL's sword doesn't have a hurtbox on it, making it safer in some situations.

Either way, I dont see YL keeping up with higher tiered characters. Especially the characters with quick move speeds and strong punish games, such as fox, falcon, marth and sheik. Once they learn to deal with boomerang, there isn't much to stop them from getting in your face as soon as you try to pull a bomb, and they are going to beat you normals vs normals if you don't pull a bomb. Anytime they hit you, it should be your stock, but YL can hardly do the same in reverse. The longest string YL can do is eg, uair -> fullhop bair -> dj dair but mostly you will get single hits and two-fers.

IMO YL's movement is actually pretty close, if not better, than most of the top tiers. That's also why I think YL is better than Link, even as a solo-main. Boomerang and Bombs aren't the only tools at your disposal. Fire arrows can be used in the same fashion that Docs use their pills or Marios use their fireballs. YL also can tech-chase and abuse people who try to spot-dodge a grab. Up-tilt is also very good at extending combos (sorta like the spacies up-tilts).

 

[ihasabuket]

Fsmash is terrible. Every character can jump or CC and punish you before the 2nd hit comes out. The only times it works is when the opponent messes up. Sometimes I use it like a marth sideb, first hit to catch an immediate action and the 2nd hit to catch the delayed action, but still its not a reliable choice.


YL boards are dead because there isn't much reason to play this character. You probably won't even get top 8 at a local. I just play him for fun against people who can't beat my higher secondaries like falcon and peach.

This isnt actually true, go into training mode and you'll see fsmash true combos on pretty much every character except Fox(because of his initial falling speed). If youre having trouble getting the second hit in you can hit A then Z as a kind of manual buffer. The first hit can be ASDI'd down or CC'd at any % because it has set KB but people dont do usually do that when theyre at high %s.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

You are correct, if you press A to do the 2nd hit immediately the hit will combo. But that is unless your opponent is holding down, which gives them 10 frames to press shield or jump or dsmash or anything else. If the opponent realizes this, then fsmash is not a viable tool.

Meta is to stay grounded, and fsmash hits low to the ground. Even if you catch them out of the air, I have seen people SDI down to the ground. They can also SDI towards you, which makes the 2nd hit miss due to the forward step he takes. People escape and punish fox for doing first hit uair, you think they have trouble applying the same concept to a laggy fsmash?

 

[ihasabuket]

You are correct, if you press A to do the 2nd hit immediately the hit will combo. But that is unless your opponent is holding down, which gives them 10 frames to press shield or jump or dsmash or anything else. If the opponent realizes this, then fsmash is not a viable tool.

Meta is to stay grounded, and fsmash hits low to the ground. Even if you catch them out of the air, I have seen people SDI down to the ground. They can also SDI towards you, which makes the 2nd hit miss due to the forward step he takes. People escape and punish fox for doing first hit uair, you think they have trouble applying the same concept to a laggy fsmash?

I dont think its practical to SDI that when they can preemptively hold down to ASDI or CC it at any %. Also, it's pretty dangerous to try to SDI downwards at high %s. That said, I still think fsmash is pretty hard to set up and is very situational. I would maybe use it for edgeguarding against a puff or peach. It covers a pretty large space, is really disjointed, and you can mixup the timing for the second hit to maybe bait puffs jumps or peach's float/parasol.

Rant over, I'll respond to what you actually posted about. Personally I think you are on the right track. With so few YL players out there, the majority of people forget what all of your moves are. You can mix-up your shield pressure or spacing with your second F-smash to catch people off-guard. Same for boomerang.

Imo this isnt an effective way to develop a character. I make it a point to explain to my training partners how to counter what im doing. That way I force myself to come up with and incorporate mixups. Obviously you can use what you said to your advantage in a tournament setting and abuse those things until they adapt.

 

[TriNewton]

You are correct, if you press A to do the 2nd hit immediately the hit will combo. But that is unless your opponent is holding down, which gives them 10 frames to press shield or jump or dsmash or anything else. If the opponent realizes this, then fsmash is not a viable tool.

Meta is to stay grounded, and fsmash hits low to the ground. Even if you catch them out of the air, I have seen people SDI down to the ground. They can also SDI towards you, which makes the 2nd hit miss due to the forward step he takes. People escape and punish fox for doing first hit uair, you think they have trouble applying the same concept to a laggy fsmash?

Actually, people do SDI Fox's up-air, but only really after the super obvious cue of an up-throw. I don't think there is anyone who can SDI on reaction. It's all about what people are expecting.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

You would be surprised what players will expect from you if they have seen you do it before. Eg, if fox does sh nair approach, you may choose to do wavedash back fsmash to catch his approach. Fox may still fall for the bait, but recognize after they see you WD back that you are about to fsmash them. So they smash down on their stick which will give them an SDI input if timed properly and otherwise give them ASDI down, which is the counter to your fsmash. If you can catch them above your sword they cant SDI down to the ground, but even ASDI will get them to the ground if they are towards the bottom or middle of the sword.

 

[ianisthewalrus]

Just would like to say, I am not trying to do anything in moving the character forward, nor do I think this is some revolution in how ylink is played, etc. I just wanted to remind people of some of the tools available that they so easily dismiss. The final hit of fsmash is a great hit, its just all about finding ways to land it.

Those tips for autocancels are great. I have been exploring autocancels as well recently, particularly with bair. I actually use the 1 hit pogo autocancel quite alot, but the easiest folow up i have found is grounded upb, as it has large range, comes out fast, and it doesnt matter where they are in relation to you. Sure it kinda sucks they can sdi out on >1.00, but I love when people sdi out near the ledge and get gimped by it. Gives me a chuckle every time.

As far as SDI down in response to fsmash, that can be dangerous for them, as if you can get them to bite on a fsmash read, you can mix up with a dsmash and they will be on a very low trajectory and unlikely to recover.

The reddit is here: https://www.reddit.com/r/YoungLinkMains/ its also quite dead, so I have just been posting gfycats of me doing dumb things on netplay. There is a discord that is a bit more active. They actually just concluded a JMU with the marth discord, but I found it less than helpful as there was little to no participation by the marths. :-(

 

[ianisthewalrus]

for anyone who still cares, here is the fsmash changeup at work in a netplay match

https://gfycat.com/CreepyTartAlbacoretuna

 

[Brando550]

That was neat to see in action. Do you play netplay often? I just installed it this week on my laptop (I use the FasterMelee Dolphin which I found out quickly does not work with everyone)

 

[ianisthewalrus]

yeah, i almost play netplay everyday. :-)

i tried to get FM working, but it kept dropping inputs. i think it was because fm doesnt seem to run at a stable fps, its always pingponging between 58and 63 fps, and my old adapter could only be used on PC mode. i got a new adapter, and wii u mode works, and it runs fine now.