Logical Reason(s) to believe in the bible god?

[Ck-2]

Can someone give me a logical reason(s) to believe in the bible god? Consider the whole biblical storyline before posting, since it will be discussed.

I'm a former Christian, now an Agnostic. I read and studied the bible for years, looking for answers to my deepest questions. Just to name a few:

-Why would a god capable of creating the cosmos need blood sacrifice for anything? How is that the logical mind set of an omnipotent god and not the superstitous, illogical, and brutal bronze age men?

-The omni god of the bible, before the foundations of the earth knew everything down to every detail. He knew Adam & Eve would fall, that disease would arise, he knew many people would die of hunger/thirst, he knew Hilter and Stalin would arise, and he knew that many of his creation would end up in eternal suffering in a lake of fire. Knowing this, he goes on with creation anyways. All is his will or he would not have created us. All that happens, that he knew would happen and he had the power to change it, but didn't, is his will. If it wasn't his will he would of changed it before creation or might as well not created us. How does this picture fit the image of the bible god?

 

[Aorist]

While I am not a Christian myself, I believe that there are two commonly posited reasons for this.

1) Several things are metaphorical and didn't actually happen. You'll have to refer me to the verses in question for me to make any sort of judgment.
2) The Biblical God is pretty big on free will. He's omniscient to the extent that he knows what will happen should you make each choice, but he doesn't know which choice you will take.

 

[Ck-2]

1) If the sacrifice was merely metaphorical then it was no real sacrifice. Based on this, Jesus was not crucified, did not raise from the dead, and did not ascend into heaven physically. This was all spiritual activity. Not much of a sacrifice.

2) Your proposition produces more problems than answers. You must impose upon a supposedly perfect god willful imperfection. It also puts all sin, evil and corruption as his responsibility, which it is any way. It makes his condemnation of man kind not only illogical but downright insane. God being omniscient and omnipotent knew before creation the Adam and Eve would fall. He created them anyway, so it was his will that they fall. They did not know right from wrong till after they ate the fruit (also considering that they did not have any previous experiences). To blame mankind for doing his will when also ignorant of good and evil which was also his doing is sick. He then left them alone with the evil serpent that he created. They were set up and then punished for it.

 

[t3h n00b]

2) Your proposition produces more problems than answers. You must impose upon a supposedly perfect god willful imperfection. It also puts all sin, evil and corruption as his responsibility, which it is any way. It makes his condemnation of man kind not only illogical but downright insane. God being omniscient and omnipotent knew before creation the Adam and Eve would fall. He created them anyway, so it was his will that they fall. They did not know right from wrong till after they ate the fruit (also considering that they did not have any previous experiences). To blame mankind for doing his will when also ignorant of good and evil which was also his doing is sick. He then left them alone with the evil serpent that he created. They were set up and then punished for it.

Adam and Eve were given a choice in the Bible. Is it any different than having a drug dealer down the street from you?

 

[Maniclysane]

...Another religion topic? Does no one get sick of this? All the questions asked are the same ones everyone asked, they're all answered the same way, and they're all unproductive.

I would rather see a debate on something like Prop 8, or maybe the war in Iraq, idk. It's just 20 atheists being douchebags and one christian drying to defend himself.

1) Who are you to judge someone's personality? He created everything in the Bible, the people sacrificed things to show their gratitude.

2) He did not know that. Tell me when, in the bible, he knew that Adam and Eve were going to eat the apple.

You don't even know what you're talking about.

 

[Ck-2]

Adam and Eve were given a choice in the Bible. Is it any different than having a drug dealer down the street from you?

You did not understand the thesis of my comment. The point was that God, being omniscient and omnipotent, knew before creation the Adam and Eve would fall. He created them anyway, so it was his will that they fall. They did not know right from wrong till after they ate the fruit (consider also that they did not have any previous experiences). He wants it just the way it is, just the way he created it, just as he knew it would be down to the smallest detail before he created the first thing. The blame is all his, 100%.

Also, consider this: Creating us knowing that we would be as we are, is really not a big deal in itself. Damming us for the way we are and the way he created us is the failing. If your child or mine act as children do and get in trouble, disappoint us, stress us financially etc, we do not stop loving them, kill them, or dam them to an eternity of torture. We have more love and compassion than does the god of the bible. Since god by his nature must torture any of his creatures, for eternity, who don't kiss his buttom and knowing that billions of his creation would not do this, then TO GO ON with creation was the most immoral and evil act any being could ever undertake.

@ Maniclysane

1) How does this shedding of blood remove sin? Why does a god capable of creating the universe need blood? Forgiveness for sin did not require a blood sacrifice at all. Suicide was the option chosen, but not the course of necessity unless the bible god is not as advertised. This story line brings into question its origin, the mind of an omni god or those of bronze age men.

2) Omniscience is one of the many characteristics of the bible god. There are many verses in the bible where god reveals this aspect of his nature. One such verse is 1 John 3:20: “...God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.” Face it, if he knew they were going to do it, which the omni god did know, then created the earth and life, every thing that happens regarding his creation is his will. If it wasn't his will he would have changed it before the creation.

 

[Vorguen]

If God is omniscient, then we don't have free will. What we will do has been preordained since the beggining of creation by him and essentially we are simply following his "scheme". Thinking about this and trying to change for the better is simply part of the plan that our omniscient God wrote out for us to follow at the start of creation.


I believe in God and the Bible, this is simply something I have speculated much in the past.

 

[RDK]

I would rather see a debate on something like Prop 8, or maybe the war in Iraq, idk. It's just 20 atheists being douchebags and one christian drying to defend himself.

If you want to go make a thread about Prop 8 or the Iraq War, no one's stopping you. Those threads would be the place for talking about Prop 8 or the Iraq War. This thread is for discussion about logical reasons for believing in the Biblical god.

That being said, from now on let's try and keep the debate civil. I.E., no name-calling.

If God is omniscient, then we don't have free will. What we will do has been preordained since the beggining of creation by him and essentially we are simply following his "scheme". Thinking about this and trying to change for the better is simply part of the plan that our omniscient God wrote out for us to follow at the start of creation.


I believe in God and the Bible, this is simply something I have speculated much in the past.

If we have no free will, then we are effectively deterministic robots. How to you reconcile this with a Biblical view of god?

In other words, if I'm nothing more than what a deity programmed me to be, why am I special?

 

[Vorguen]

Quote RDK:

If we have no free will, then we are effectively deterministic robots. How to you reconcile this with a Biblical view of god?

In other words, if I'm nothing more than what a deity programmed me to be, why am I special?

God may have programmed life to run its course and he may know exactly what is going to happen, but that does not change that we don't. Our happiness is still at stake, and regardless of how you see it (why try since it's going to happen anyway?), our actions directly affect how we feel. That is why we are special, because our lives are still ours to live.

 

[RDK]

Quote RDK:



God may have programmed life to run its course and he may know exactly what is going to happen, but that does not change that we don't. Our happiness is still at stake, and regardless of how you see it (why try since it's going to happen anyway?), our actions directly affect how we feel. That is why we are special, because our lives are still ours to live.

This line of logic is self-defeating for several reasons..

A god that champions the nature of choice and free will cannot also omnisciently set in motion our entire lives, knowing every choice we make and every little thing we do. That is predestination.

The amount of people who know isn't a factor at all; just the fact that somebody knows beforehand (especially an all-powerful god that caused said events) is enough. Seeing as how he is, in Christian philosophy, the root and cause of everything in existence--including sin--saying that we still have some sort of free will while still being under the indirect influence of god is ludicrous at best.

Here's a quote from our very own AltF4 that fits this topic quite nicely:

It's really pretty simple. In order to have Free Will, there must be options.

Imagine a world where everything happens deterministically, much like a video game. Everything that happens in this world is is determined strictly according to the state of the world previously, and progresses in a well defined manner.

Certainly no creatures or objects in this world can be said to have Free Will. They have no choice about what to do, their actions are determined entirely by the laws of the world. Everything in this world have no options. Given a particular state of the world, there is only one possible way for the world to end up later. Thus there is no choice involved at all, everything just progresses in a boring deterministic fashion.

Makes sense, yes? In order to make choices, there must be options.

Well, if there exists an omniscient being, then there are no options. This being already knows the state of the universe and all of its future states. In other words: it already knows what the creatures and objects in the universe will do. There are no options. A creature in this world has no choice about what to do. Their future is already determined and they cannot change it.

Get it?

 

[.Marik]

The thing is, most of the events in the Bible did not occur.

People seem to mistake the metaphorical meanings, for literal happenings.

 

[Ck-2]

But that does not change the thesis of my comments. As I said before, god being omni knew before creation that Adam and Eve would fall. He created them anyway, so it was his will that they fall. They did not know right from wrong till after they ate the fruit (also considering that they did not have any previous experiences). To blame mankind for doing his will when also ignorant of good and evil which was also his doing is sick. He then left them alone with the evil serpent that he created. They were set up and then punished for it. TO GO ON with creation was the most immoral and evil act any being could ever undertake.

Even though it might be metaphorical in nature, the theme and actions of the bible god are evident.

 

[Aorist]

You are ignoring my first post, Ck-2. The Biblical God is omniscient except for where it will compromise free will. He doesn't know what choices you will take, but he knows the ramifications of each. Otherwise the universe would be deterministic, and nobody wants that.

Here, have a look at this Wikipedia thing

Some modern theologians argue that God's omniscience is inherent rather than total, and that God chooses to limit his omniscience in order to preserve the freewill and dignity of his creatures.

SOURCE

 

[Ck-2]

Sorry Aorist, but that is not the bible god. Do us all a favor and give us the chapter and verse of how the bible god limits is omniscience, or are you just a cafeteria christian?

You first have to shrink your god to less than an omni god, then pile on a big helping of wishful thinking, then make the unfounded assertion that a god who created childhood leukemia is beautiful and great. What a load of snake oil.

 

[Aorist]

Hooray, you did ignore my first post.

I'm not a Christian. I am seriously one of the most atheist people you will ever come across. I object, though, to the miltant, angry atheism you're using. I'm providing the reasoning that I've heard, whether or not I agree with it myself.

I'd tone it down on the personal attacks, thanks.

If the Bible says (and it does) that God is omniscient, while also holding that he is omnibenevolent, it seems the logical conclusion to be made. Books don't explicitly say everything that occurs within them, you often have to use logic to work it out. The whole principle of showing, not telling, demonstrates this.

 

[Ck-2]

Let me clear this up, you want to "debate" me on something that you heard from someone else, and you don't know whether you agree with it or not?

Either way, for the sake of the argument, why don't you show me where does it say that god doesn't know the choices one will takes, therefore limiting his omniscience? (Which was a claim you made earlier)Or are you saying that it's not explicitly found? That line of "reasoning" has to be backed up by something, don't you think?

 

[Ck-2]

NOTE: This debate is not a rant.

 

[Aorist]

Yes. While I disagree with Christianity in several key areas, the ones that you put forward I do not find convincing either way and are fairly easily refuted.

The way I see it, there are two alternatives, yeah?

That God is evil, and created a completely deterministic universe in which He knew everyone was going to fall from grace and do horrible, terrible things.

OR

God is good, and created a universe that wasn't completely deterministic, thus not knowing that everyone was going to fall from grace and do horrible, terrible things.

The crux of each is whether or not the universe is deterministic, and every other part of the reasoning follows from there - If the universe is deterministic (and we assume God exists), then because of the physical evidence of suffering and sin, he must be evil. Follow the same reasoning for the other option.

Well, the Bible does say that God is good. "No one is good except God alone” (Mark 10:18).

Therefore, the second option is the correct one.

Given that the limited omniscience I put forward earlier comes under the correct definition ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omniscient#Definition ) I see no problem with this.

 

[Ck-2]

Limited omniscience is not biblical (as far as I know). Here are a few OMNISCIENT characteristics of the bible god:

Psalm 139:1-4 (very explicit); Psalms 147:4-5; II Kings 13:19 (of the future); Isaiah 46:10 (a verse in which some claim to be predestination); 1 John 3:20

Aorist, what about a god who is both good and evil? Remember, one cannot exist without the other, since they're two exact opposites. That's one of the many areas that I disagree with christians. They want one side but not the other.

Anyways, if total omniscience is true, then the bible god is a very small and unimportant god by all standards. He knew before creation they would fall, put the tree in the garden, kept them ignorant to right and wrong, let the serpent into the garden and then took the powder. It was all his will and we are just as he created us to be. He is responsible for all suffering, evil etc.. He gets no pass.

 

[Aorist]

I looked at your Bible quotes. No dice. I had it all typed up and then my internet blew, but suffice to say that they all allowed for limited omniscience.

However, the Bible does not allow for even a slightly evil God. Why are you picking and choosing which parts of the Bible to hold as "true"? I imagine you ridicule Christians for the same thing.