Little Mac should have a kill throw.

[jazaniac]

So I understand why Little Mac's terrible grab game is a part of his design; he's a boxer, not a grappler, after all. I'm perfectly okay with his terrible grab range, as it is pretty hard to grab someone while wearing boxing gloves. But what I don't understand is why he doesn't have better throws. If he actually threw characters for his throws, that'd be different, but he doesn't. For his upthrow, fthrow, and bthrow, he just uppercuts them. I don't understand why all of the rest of his uppercuts do insane damage and knockback, but those don't.

Aside from the design, mac really needs a better way to punish shields aside from a measly 6-7% with the only follow up being a DI mixup in favor of the one being thrown.

 

[Rekzius]

One important thing about mac`s grab is that it really does not matter if the grab data is bad. It`s all about if your opponent going to shield when you dash at them, i know that might sound self explanatory, but in mac`s case it really shows. It can`t be your primary way of dealing with shields. An experienced Mac will allways know when it is propriate to grab. And most of the time he will hit.

There is no doubt that he would be broken if he had a kill throw at something like 120%. He would be absurdly powerfull.

Mac does have a lot of ways to deal with shields. but grab is a mix up when playing mac, you can`t use it like any othe character would. you have to relying on well spaced tilts and down angled f-smash to win neutral.

That being said, i would like to see his throws to a bit more damage, or at least i would like to see more DI dependant follow ups, but none of them can be guaranteed.

But him having a kill throw would be to powerfull i`m afraid.

 

[jazaniac]

One important thing about mac`s grab is that it really does not matter if the grab data is bad. It`s all about if your opponent going to shield when you dash at them, i know that might sound self explanatory, but in mac`s case it really shows. It can`t be your primary way of dealing with shields. An experienced Mac will allways know when it is propriate to grab. And most of the time he will hit.

There is no doubt that he would be broken if he had a kill throw at something like 120%. He would be absurdly powerfull.

Mac does have a lot of ways to deal with shields. but grab is a mix up when playing mac, you can`t use it like any othe character would. you have to relying on well spaced tilts and down angled f-smash to win neutral.

That being said, i would like to see his throws to a bit more damage, or at least i would like to see more DI dependant follow ups, but none of them can be guaranteed.

But him having a kill throw would be to powerfull i`m afraid.

Would it make him good? Probably not. Mid-tier? Sure. Broken? Heck no. His recovery is still terrible, and still his biggest weakness. Not being able to adequately pressure shields is the icing on the **** cake. also other low-tier characters getting kill throws (charizard) made them slightly better, not broken. I'm just saying that a kill throw would make sense for the design of his throws, and improve his shield pressure. Taking away that secondary weakness would give him a decent buff without taking away from his design.

 

[Rekzius]

Would it make him good? Probably not. Mid-tier? Sure. Broken? Heck no. His recovery is still terrible, and still his biggest weakness. Not being able to adequately pressure shields is the icing on the **** cake. also other low-tier characters getting kill throws (charizard) made them slightly better, not broken. I'm just saying that a kill throw would make sense for the design of his throws, and improve his shield pressure. Taking away that secondary weakness would give him a decent buff without taking away from his design.

I never said he would be broken i said he would be powerful, but Mac still has a lot of ways to deal with shields, and grab is not one of them , i know that may sound polarizing, but it`s really inportant to understand. Mac does not really need more shield pressure. Again if you know what you are doing this should not really be a problem. Especially after the shield stunn pach.

"EDIT: (I did say broken, sorry i am only human :v)"

Mac is already a good character, but he does need to be buffed. But inproving his grabing game is not the way to go either way you look at it.

 

[Gavi1195]

Just wanted to give my 2 cents on this topic.

First of all, it's a known fact the Little Mac DOES HAVE a kill throw (Back Throw) however, it's among the weakest in the game (It doesn't kill near the ledge until higher than 170%) which makes it almost worthless unless your in Sudden Death.

Second, this is in regard to Rek's comment about shield pressure. Even if spaced, Little Mac's attack's are punishable. The only move he has that is safe on shield is F-Smash (Down ver.) due to the knockback and the increased shield stun giving mac enough space and frames to recover. Any other move that Mac performs against shield does not give Mac enough shield stun to recover safely against certain characters and moves.

When it comes to grabbing, I think that grabbing itself would help. I can pick most other characters and rely on the grab as a good anti shield, with Mac, I can't rely on it as much as I want to with other characters. So I would honestly speed up his start up so he grabs faster and either make his kill throw better or give him a reliable combo throw. He IS a ground fighter, so it would still makes sense from a design perspective since he is supposed to be focused heavily on ground play.

One last thing: Yes, Rek, you did say broken, but later changed it to powerful.

 

[Rekzius]

Just wanted to give my 2 cents on this topic.

First of all, it's a known fact the Little Mac DOES HAVE a kill throw (Back Throw) however, it's among the weakest in the game (It doesn't kill near the ledge until higher than 170%) which makes it almost worthless unless your in Sudden Death.

Second, this is in regard to Rek's comment about shield pressure. Even if spaced, Little Mac's attack's are punishable. The only move he has that is safe on shield is F-Smash (Down ver.) due to the knockback and the increased shield stun giving mac enough space and frames to recover. Any other move that Mac performs against shield does not give Mac enough shield stun to recover safely against certain characters and moves.

When it comes to grabbing, I think that grabbing itself would help. I can pick most other characters and rely on the grab as a good anti shield, with Mac, I can't rely on it as much as I want to with other characters. So I would honestly speed up his start up so he grabs faster and either make his kill throw better or give him a reliable combo throw. He IS a ground fighter, so it would still makes sense from a design perspective since he is supposed to be focused heavily on ground play.

One last thing: Yes, Rek, you did say broken, but later changed it to powerful.

Backside of u-tilt and d-tilt are safe on shield. f-tilt is not tho. your opponent does not have time to drop shield and punish before you can get an other one inn. When spaced correctly of course.

I understand that people want mac to have a better grab, but believe me when i say that there is a reason that it is bad.

Mac is super polorizing, people get really scared when the have to fight him. They have to play him drasticly diffrent from any other character. Mac will punish the slightest mistake you make. Aerials are always unsafe because of super armour. So the fact that they have one thing to clamber on to is almost recuired in order for a character like mac to exsist. People need a good defensive option to deal with Mac.

Being able to easly gimp him is not a defensive option, it`s an offensive one. So his grab was the only thing that would make sense to nerf. If they buffed his grab people would not have this.

If anything buff his other moves, make them do more shield stun, but don`t make his grab better.

.......And yeah i did say broken....ops

 

[inconspikuous]

wishful thinking is great, but in the meantime, what we need to figure out is a reliable 50/50 on the dthrow>upB kill combo. all the opponent needs to do is DI away to 'win', so what are some options mac can use to cover that? i was thinking maybe a buffered shorthop sideB could cover it, but obviously that's only for a last hit, last stock situation.

 

[jazaniac]

Backside of u-tilt and d-tilt are safe on shield. f-tilt is not tho. your opponent does not have time to drop shield and punish before you can get an other one inn. When spaced correctly of course.

I understand that people want mac to have a better grab, but believe me when i say that there is a reason that it is bad.

Mac is super polorizing, people get really scared when the have to fight him. They have to play him drasticly diffrent from any other character. Mac will punish the slightest mistake you make. Aerials are always unsafe because of super armour. So the fact that they have one thing to clamber on to is almost recuired in order for a character like mac to exsist. People need a good defensive option to deal with Mac.

Being able to easly gimp him is not a defensive option, it`s an offensive one. So his grab was the only thing that would make sense to nerf. If they buffed his grab people would not have this.

If anything buff his other moves, make them do more shield stun, but don`t make his grab better.

.......And yeah i did say broken....ops

But almost every single other character in the game has a viable way to pressure shield. Having a kill throw would not make mac too powerful, it would put him in B tier at best. He still gets comboed to hell in the air, and can't recover. People will still have defensive options, they will just have to be more creative than shielding all the time, like they have to do against every other character. I think you are vastly overestimating Little Mac.

 

[Rekzius]

But almost every single other character in the game has a viable way to pressure shield. Having a kill throw would not make mac too powerful, it would put him in B tier at best. He still gets comboed to hell in the air, and can't recover. People will still have defensive options, they will just have to be more creative than shielding all the time, like they have to do against every other character. I think you are vastly overestimating Little Mac.

I am not outright against mac having a kill throw, i just think there is a lot of other stuff they could do instead that would inprove his shield pressure. Kill throws are non interactive, just grab and kill nothing else. I would much rather see him getting more shield stun on his tilts and other moves. I would not be angry if they gave him a kill throw, I just think it is a lazy way of solving the problem.

"People will still have defensive options, they will just have to be more creative than shielding all the time, like they have to do against every other character."

Well, see the thing is that every other character does not have a frame one jab, frame 3 d-tilt, frame 5 up tilt that cover both sides, and amazing smashes that all have armor. This is why mac i scary at neutral. No other character has this kind of frame data.


"I think you are vastly overestimating Little Mac"

That may very well be, but i sincerely believe that mac is a lot better than people give him credit for. With a rapidly changing meta game, some characters are bound to be left in the dust. And that is where mac is now. The reason nobody is playing him is because he gets no representation, and because nobody represents him, nobody wants to play him. When all of these patches are over unless he gets nrefed again, (I will literaly quit the game forever if that happens) I still think he will be really good.

 

[jazaniac]

That may very well be, but i sincerely believe that mac is a lot better than people give him credit for. With a rapidly changing meta game, some characters are bound to be left in the dust. And that is where mac is now. The reason nobody is playing him is because he gets no representation, and because nobody represents him, nobody wants to play him. When all of these patches are over unless he gets nrefed again, (I will literaly quit the game forever if that happens) I still think he will be really good.

That excuse has been used for bad characters since the beginning of fighting games, and it has almost never been valid. Plus, Little Mac's playstyle is inherently not optimized for 1v1 smash on legal stages. He has no air game in a game that takes place in the air around 65% of the time. An inability to pressure shield is just insult to injury, especially when there are characters like sheik and pikachu that have better neutrals than little mac as well as amazing recovery and air game.

 

[TakeYourHeart]

Been a while since I was here, but here's the reason why this is a bad idea:

It goes against Mac's character design.

If Mac is whooping you, he's doing it by punching you into next week, not by a kill throw, not by back-air and very rarely by spiking you. Should Mac's grab data be better? Yes, cause cinching is a thing in boxing. Should he get a couple of ways to follow up on grabs guaranteed? Sure.

Should he go: "SO LONG ME BOWSER!" ? No, god no. Because that's not what Mac does. And I think you severely underestimate the power a kill throw has. It's a huge reason why Ness is tourney playable. Mac has two lines he can cross with buffs: The First: Tourney Playability. The Second, not even 2ft away from the first is: Broken as ****. Like it's a fine balance and I'm impressed Sakurai had it even kinda right on release.

That excuse has been used for bad characters since the beginning of fighting games, and it has almost never been valid. Plus, Little Mac's playstyle is inherently not optimized for 1v1 smash on legal stages. He has no air game in a game that takes place in the air around 65% of the time. An inability to pressure shield is just insult to injury, especially when there are characters like sheik and pikachu that have better neutrals than little mac as well as amazing recovery and air game.

The Street Fighter IV competitive scene would like to have a word with you. Heck, look at Mario, it took a while for him to be recognized as good as he is. I want Mac to get better too, but you gotta play the character, not what you wish it could be.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

Mac can pressure shield with DTilt and FSmash with a downwards tilt. Down Tilted FSmash also happens to be unpunishable due to its heavy shield damage and shieldstun, as well as, if they drop shielding, doing quite a bit of damage even though it has low knockback.

Having a Kill Throw would simply make Mac just a bit more viable but all the more annoying for people to fight, considering right now his weak point is his recovery, grabs, and aerial ability. Not that I'd complain as a Mac main, but it isn't necessary. That's all.

 

[jazaniac]

Been a while since I was here, but here's the reason why this is a bad idea:

It goes against Mac's character design.

If Mac is whooping you, he's doing it by punching you into next week, not by a kill throw, not by back-air and very rarely by spiking you. Should Mac's grab data be better? Yes, cause cinching is a thing in boxing. Should he get a couple of ways to follow up on grabs guaranteed? Sure.

Should he go: "SO LONG ME BOWSER!" ? No, god no. Because that's not what Mac does. And I think you severely underestimate the power a kill throw has. It's a huge reason why Ness is tourney playable. Mac has two lines he can cross with buffs: The First: Tourney Playability. The Second, not even 2ft away from the first is: Broken as ****. Like it's a fine balance and I'm impressed Sakurai had it even kinda right on release.

The Street Fighter IV competitive scene would like to have a word with you. Heck, look at Mario, it took a while for him to be recognized as good as he is. I want Mac to get better too, but you gotta play the character, not what you wish it could be.

I don't understand your point. When mac "throws", he isn't really throwing. He's punching. And yeah, I forgot about cinching, so his pummel and throw game should be better. But in terms of grab range, I think it should be the same, since I don't remember anyone cinching by reaching super far out in front of him. Also, Ness has the ability to hit people on platforms and recover from farther than five feet away from the stage. Charizard has a kill throw, and he's not tourney playable. I do play the character, but since patches are a thing I definitely want improvements to be made. I don't know how many times I have to say it, cause it seems like people are ignoring every other word I say; Little Mac's true weakness is in his recovery. A kill throw would just improve him somewhat in a way that aligns with his design. Unless his recovery is fixed, he will never, EVER be broken.