little help please

[UltimateShinigami]

I'm getting better and better with the IC's every day. i already know what i need to do to get better and now it's a matter of practice. My main problem is fighting my friend who uses shiek. My friends who are semi-pro at the game told me IC's are a counter for shiek, so i don't understand why i lose. This is what happens...

I start off the match usually winning and getting the first kill, but as time progresses, he starts playing defensively and i get exited that i'm winning so i keep pouring it on, but falling into his counters. When that happens, he kills nana asap which wouldnt be a problem for me if he wasnt a shield grabber. As soon as she dies he separates from me and starts pummeling me with needles until i go on the attack, then when i do, he shield grabs me, gets me in a combo, and i get owned. I started avoiding the grabs by attacking him with my b-air after jumping past him, but then he just starts rolling away from me and using his dash attack.

how can i make him come to me and fight like a man while i'm by myself?

 

[juganthestar]

iceblocks, jumping blizzards, taunting and stalling so he feels annoyed, slow dash daning. Just annoy him ;D

 

[UltimateShinigami]

ok, i can do the iceblocks and the blizzards, but the taunting and dash dancing are no-no's because as i said, when i'm on the ground, he starts pummeling me with needles. basically, he annoys me faster than i can annoy him so i do to him what i want him to do to me and thats attack

 

[Corin]

do you always choose a flat level? try a level with multiple platforms, but still a large area (so not somewhere like battlefield). Then if there are multiple levels, you should be able to easily avoid needles on the ground by jumping to a higher platform. When he uses the needles, try jumping above and using the ice blocks. He'll have to either get out of the way or smash them with needles,m but it gives you a chance to get close, or at the very least reduce time between needle attacks.

 

[juganthestar]

well how about wavedashing back and forth to feint an attack out of him?

 

[UltimateShinigami]

do you always choose a flat level? try a level with multiple platforms, but still a large area (so not somewhere like battlefield). Then if there are multiple levels, you should be able to easily avoid needles on the ground by jumping to a higher platform. When he uses the needles, try jumping above and using the ice blocks. He'll have to either get out of the way or smash them with needles,m but it gives you a chance to get close, or at the very least reduce time between needle attacks.

yes, we almost always go to final destination. the times we don't, we go to battlefield, but that it my choice. i feel like i shouldnt rely on the level to help me beat someone. i'd rather do it on my own skill with no inturruptions or inclined surfaces, that way when i win, they can't blame it on the level, they wither have to admit i'm better, or come up with some other bogus excuse

 

[UltimateShinigami]

well how about wavedashing back and forth to feint an attack out of him?

can't. once again, the needles are a B!t**

 

[juganthestar]

well if he is standing on the loor shooting needles, jump and move forward...then WD again and shoot a needle, and jump and so on and gerab him xD

 

[Lixivium]

How are you making your approaches? Are you wavedashing towards Sheik or trying to attack through the air?

If you're trying to attack through the air, stop doing it so much.

If you're wavedashing towards Sheik and your friend is sitting in her shield waiting for you to attack, GRAB HER INSTEAD. If you can do this when you still have Nana you can put on some major hurtin'. If you only have Popo, you can still chain throw a bit with the D-throw, or chase with wavesmashes.

 

[Delphiki]

First of all, you need to throw away conceptions of "cheap" and "fight like a man." Also, knowing how, where, and when to counterpick is a valuable strategy, not a cheap trick. Note your own signature. If you still don't like that idea, think of this: a flat surface is not 'fair' just because it is featureless. What it does is give an advantage to those who benefit from a flat surface. Shiek/Samus/Falco/Fox are some high tier characters that benefit from big, open levels. Also, get rid of the idea of 'a shield grabber.' You say it like it's a bad thing, but shieldgrabbing is among the greatest techniques that top players use.

Out of curiosity, who are your friends? If it is their own claim that they are 'semi-pro', they may want to reconsider. I regularly face NorCal pros in tournaments, and have beat some and got very close to beating others. Amid all that, I don't claim myself to be pro. Don't focus on where you are, focus on where you have to go.


Now, on to business. The biggest reason the Ice Climbers counter Shiek is because of their D-throw. They can chaingrab Shiek from 0-death, without infinites or blizzards. Just a simple D-throw > D-throw > D-throw. After they get around 60-70%, D-smash. If you properly predict your opponent's DI, you can easily remove a stock with a single grab. Also, their outprioritize and outrange Shiek in the air.

What was said about FD is incredibly true. Shiek can easily go to one end of the stage and needle spam. There is nothing you can do but get past the needles and get forced into a bad position. Most good Shiek players will take advantage of Needle spamming at any level, and at FD it only gets worse.


I would suggest first getting around the needle spam. In order to stop your opponent from spamming, you may want to first pick a better level. Try Dreamland, there a plenty of platforms to move around on, and Shiek can't spam there. Also, the Climbers have lots of room to move around, desycnh, wavedash, waveland, platform cancel, etc..

In case you end up at FD, or you have needle spam problems elsewhere, you need to get past the needles as quick as possible. At long distances, you can simply jump over them and Ice Block. Chase the blocks and close in. At close range, your opponent will not have time to spam needles. If you can't land a grab, focus on aerials and Jabs to open up for grabs and other combos. Jabs are incredibly useful, any of the top Ice Climber players will tell you that. Remember those shieldgrabs!! If you think your opponent is going to shield grab, you could Nair and land behind them. They may grab in front, expecting you to be there. If you think they're going to land the grab, spotdodge and grab. Be sure to nail the L-cancel on the Nair. You miss that L-cancel, and you WILL get grabbed and punished. Also, against any character with a good projectile, it is best to keep the pressure on. This doesn't mean play offensively, it means play defensively, but just out of range of their standard attacks. Keep an eye on your spacing with dash dancing and wavedashing, and if they move in for an attack wavedash away, then wavedash back, jab, and from there use whatever combo/grab combo you would like. Keeping distance like this will effectively remove, or at least lessen the effectiveness of their projectiles.



Hopefully that helps. Don't think twice about asking whatever you need to know, I'll be glad to help.



If you'd like any more tips, I would look to the top Climber players - Chu Dat, Domo, HoChihMinhTrail, Azn_Lep, Choknater, Sidefx, and Delphiki. I'm sure any of them could give you a ton of tips.

 

[N1c2k3]

1: I doubt your friends are semi-pros.
2: IC's don't auto **** Sheik, like most ppl say. There's a lot she can do to get around their stuff. Omar ***** me last tourny. Given, he's awesome, but still. Which brings me to my next point.
3: Everything Delphiki said about stage picking is correct, except completely backwards. Ask any good player. The 1 level you want to be on more than anything else on any matchup is FD. Especially on Sheik, which allows you to cg her more than any other level. We'll stick to this matchup since it seems to be the core of the discussion. Shinigami mentioned FD. Contrary to some people's obvious beliefs, FD is not a complete "neutral" stage. It can be just as "unbalanced" (I don't like using that term to describe a lvl but I can't think of another word for this piont) as any stage; it all depends on the matchup. Some1 also mentioned needle spamming. FD may be bad because there's no platform to jump to, but I promise you it's worse if Sheik has them. She can jump around and needle you from the air, proj cancel on the platform, and come down with a fair or just jump out of the way or to another platform to start it again, all before you can do anything. Like I mentioned, I faced 2 very good Sheiks last tourny; Aesis and Omar. They both banned FD and they both used the tactic I mentioned up the whazoo. I got lucky and beat Aesis in an extremely close 3rd round which he screwed up bad at the end, and probably only winning the 1st round because it was FD, but I had no such luck against Omar. Now mind, I'm not trying to be self glorifying at all, and even moreso, I'm not trying to say that I think Sheik has an advantage over IC's; I still think they have an edge overall, but I think that edge it is very much negated on any stage other than FD...

 

[UltimateShinigami]

First of all, you need to throw away conceptions of "cheap" and "fight like a man." Also, knowing how, where, and when to counterpick is a valuable strategy, not a cheap trick. Note your own signature. If you still don't like that idea, think of this: a flat surface is not 'fair' just because it is featureless. What it does is give an advantage to those who benefit from a flat surface. Shiek/Samus/Falco/Fox are some high tier characters that benefit from big, open levels. Also, get rid of the idea of 'a shield grabber.' You say it like it's a bad thing, but shieldgrabbing is among the greatest techniques that top players use.

Out of curiosity, who are your friends? If it is their own claim that they are 'semi-pro', they may want to reconsider. I regularly face NorCal pros in tournaments, and have beat some and got very close to beating others. Amid all that, I don't claim myself to be pro. Don't focus on where you are, focus on where you have to go.


Now, on to business. The biggest reason the Ice Climbers counter Shiek is because of their D-throw. They can chaingrab Shiek from 0-death, without infinites or blizzards. Just a simple D-throw > D-throw > D-throw. After they get around 60-70%, D-smash. If you properly predict your opponent's DI, you can easily remove a stock with a single grab. Also, their outprioritize and outrange Shiek in the air.

What was said about FD is incredibly true. Shiek can easily go to one end of the stage and needle spam. There is nothing you can do but get past the needles and get forced into a bad position. Most good Shiek players will take advantage of Needle spamming at any level, and at FD it only gets worse.


I would suggest first getting around the needle spam. In order to stop your opponent from spamming, you may want to first pick a better level. Try Dreamland, there a plenty of platforms to move around on, and Shiek can't spam there. Also, the Climbers have lots of room to move around, desycnh, wavedash, waveland, platform cancel, etc..

In case you end up at FD, or you have needle spam problems elsewhere, you need to get past the needles as quick as possible. At long distances, you can simply jump over them and Ice Block. Chase the blocks and close in. At close range, your opponent will not have time to spam needles. If you can't land a grab, focus on aerials and Jabs to open up for grabs and other combos. Jabs are incredibly useful, any of the top Ice Climber players will tell you that. Remember those shieldgrabs!! If you think your opponent is going to shield grab, you could Nair and land behind them. They may grab in front, expecting you to be there. If you think they're going to land the grab, spotdodge and grab. Be sure to nail the L-cancel on the Nair. You miss that L-cancel, and you WILL get grabbed and punished. Also, against any character with a good projectile, it is best to keep the pressure on. This doesn't mean play offensively, it means play defensively, but just out of range of their standard attacks. Keep an eye on your spacing with dash dancing and wavedashing, and if they move in for an attack wavedash away, then wavedash back, jab, and from there use whatever combo/grab combo you would like. Keeping distance like this will effectively remove, or at least lessen the effectiveness of their projectiles.



Hopefully that helps. Don't think twice about asking whatever you need to know, I'll be glad to help.



If you'd like any more tips, I would look to the top Climber players - Chu Dat, Domo, HoChihMinhTrail, Azn_Lep, Choknater, Sidefx, and Delphiki. I'm sure any of them could give you a ton of tips.

thank you very much. i was just using the term "fight like a man" as a way to spice up my post, saying what I wanted to say without coming right out and saying it. It did work, you knew what i meant after all ^_^
i know shield grabbing is a very good way of playing, and i've been known to do a bit of it myself. I do apologize though for using the word "cheap"

as to your second paragraph, i don't know their names on the forums, but i'll find out

and as to the fourth paragraph, that is exactly what my friend does bit by bit. I was able to beat him though about 10 times in a row on final destination using the pointers the people before you gave, but i will remember everything you said, and utilize my counter-picking in the future. Once again, thanks