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List of Advantages P:M has over Brawl

Wingflier

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 16, 2008
Messages
161
Hey, sorry to be a bother but I've got a local P:M Tournament coming up this Friday. It's a Brawl and Project M Tournament but most people there have no idea what Project M is. To garner some interest I'll have several P:M stations set up, and hopefully some flyers around the area explaining the differences between the games.

Since there is no official list (that I could find), can people start posting some advantages that P:M has over Brawl. Be serious please.

Things like:

*Increased combo potential
*Removed random tripping
*Balanced cast
etc.

Thanks for your help!
 

QQQQQQQ7777777

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 27, 2013
Messages
2,300
pros:
Faster paced battles
Return of the Wavedash
more Melee-ish air dodge
more Melee-ish shield
squirtle, ivysaur, and charazard are now there own entire characters
new and rebalanced stages
and pretty much everything you said

cons:
Fewer characters (for now)
no singleplayer mode support (for now, but sense this is a tourney that shouldn`t matter)

I will edit this list if I can think of anything else

also, where is this tourney? if its close by, I think I might want to come.
 

trojanpooh

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 23, 2007
Messages
1,183
Not to be a grammar Nazi, but if you're going to make a flying make sure it says 'fewer characters' instead of 'less characters'. You don't say less unless the thing you're referring to is intangible/uncountable. Normally I wouldn't bother correcting people on this on a forum but if you're making flyers gotta look gud.
 

trojanpooh

Smash Lord
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Messages
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Except actually in retrospect if you're doing a flyer probably don't mention the fewer characters -_-
 

deadjames

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explain please
In Brawl you can air dodge multiple times per jumps and it doesn't put you into free-fall so you can act out of it, and in general Brawl shields can withstand much more pressure than P:M shields, it's also a lot easier to escape from shield pressure in Brawl too because there is generally less shield stun, the one thing that's better in P:M is power-shielding because it reflects projectiles and if you power-shield a multi-hit move it power-shields every hit instead of just the initial one.
 

Chzrm3

Smash Ace
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In my experience, comparing PM to Brawl directly can be a bit polarizing. A lot of Brawl fans will actually take it the wrong way - I can't tell you how many times I've had to calm someone down because I tell them about PM, and they say "WHAT, THE DEVS THINK THEY CAN MAKE A BETTER GAME THAN SAKURAI!?!??! THEY DONT RESPECT NINTENDO!?!?!"

...O_o It's definitely a bizarre reaction.

So I think a better way to get people into PM is just to present it as a really fun mod. Don't talk about the inherent advantages and how it's better. All that stuff is true, don't get me wrong - but it may turn people off.

Rather, I'd say things like "Do you like Pokemon Trainer? In this mod, the team actually split up all three characters and gave them unique down-B attacks! Now Ivysaur has solar beam and stun spore, it's really fun!"

You can also say "they revamped movesets for a few characters, like Wario - they gave him a lot of old-school attacks and a pretty satisfying playstyle".

Also, the BEST and most hype thing to tell people is that the devs are working on adding Mewtwo and Roy back in. People will definitely want to try the mod just to see if they like it, because I'm pretty sure every Smash fan misses either Mewtwo or Roy pretty badly. =) It might even be worth it to have a vid of Mewtwo and Roy's release trailers, so when people say WOAH WHAT IS THIS you can go "awwwww yeah, that's coming in the winter, but you wanna try the demo right now?"

and once you get them to play it, your job's over! I think it's impossible for someone to play PM and not immediately fall in love, especially if they like characters like Ganondorf, the pokemon, Wario, the DK crew, etc etc
 

QQQQQQQ7777777

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 27, 2013
Messages
2,300
In Brawl you can air dodge multiple times per jumps and it doesn't put you into free-fall so you can act out of it, and in general Brawl shields can withstand much more pressure than P:M shields, it's also a lot easier to escape from shield pressure in Brawl too because there is generally less shield stun, the one thing that's better in P:M is power-shielding because it reflects projectiles and if you power-shield a multi-hit move it power-shields every hit instead of just the initial one.
Ok, I think I can understand where you are coming. I personally prefer the Project M shields, though I wish they would make them perfectly mimic the Melee shield. I`ll edit my list.
 

deadjames

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Ok, I think I can understand where you are coming. I personally prefer the Project M shields, though I wish they would make them perfectly mimic the Melee shield. I`ll edit my list.
No, I definitely agree, like trojanpooh said air dodging and shielding are more intelligently designed in P:M, but they are much more powerful defensive tools in Brawl.
 

GHNeko

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As said before, don't focus on what makes P:M better than Brawl, because unless your strictly mention, "in a competitive environment", any thing you list will be completely subjective. And even if you do mention in a competitive environment, there aren't too many objective bullet points to use.

You'll be better off focusing on what makes P:M stand out from Brawl, while not being Melee 2.0 but a spiritual sequal to Melee with a focus on recreating and recapturing that we feel makes Melee amazing.

Emphasize our goals without downplaying Brawl.

Sent from my SGH-T699 using Tapatalk 2
 

Wingflier

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 16, 2008
Messages
161
Thanks guys, all this definitely helps.

I'm a confrontational person, and after playing Melee, then Brawl, then P:M for awhile, I have no problem facing somebody down and telling them that P:M is superior. However, I think there have been some good reasons given why I shouldn't do that.

It's also true that Brawl has some advantages over P:M as well, such as including the full cast.

Though mentioning the two new characters is a nice idea, I'm not sure how to do it without being like "Coming Soon"TM, which is kind of ironic considering that the full roster still hasn't been finished. Kirby and Samus were both in SSB64 and I've already run into people who are turned off before they even try it because of that.

So I'll try to make a compromise and not mention Brawl in my "P:M Advantages Flyer". Obviously the connection is implied, but not so in your face like "Brawl sucks, come play this", even though that's how I actually feel.
 

Ogopogo

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It terms of a competitive game, there's nothing that Brawl really has over P:M.
 

Rikana

Smash Champion
Joined
May 16, 2006
Messages
2,125
Try not to use the word "Melee" when explaining the differences. The word Melee seems to give off a negative connotation amongst the Brawl community. Just say things like "PM has directional air dodges" instead of "PM has Melee's directional air dodges." Make sure to say that it tries to incoporate the best of all 3 smash games into one. For example, taunt canceling from 64, advance techniques from Melee, and familiar techniques that remain in tact from Brawl such as RAR.
 

BEES

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-There are more combos.
-There is no tripping.
-Battles are faster paced and less campy.
-Characters are better balanced.
-Every character has more options for approaching and attacking.
-Movesets tend to be slightly more diverse in useable ways.

Subjectively, that makes it likely to be a more fun game to people who try it. Some people may still prefer Brawl. Some people like that kind of gameplay. There's nothing wrong with that, so long as we acknowledge that finding a game more fun is totally subjective. Heck, I like Project M more than Melee at this point, and that is not an uncommon opinion. It feels actually a bit more aggressively tuned than Melee, and you can't argue with having more characters and stages and better graphics.

I think we could objectively call it a better game than Brawl for competitive tournaments, at least.

There are some drawbacks. Brawl is a game you can pick up and play. Nothing in the game requires more than a few hours to pick up fluently. Project M has some necessary grinding. There are advanced techniques that take a lot of time to learn and integrate into your gameplay before the game actually opens up and becomes fun. One way or another, you'll have to spend weeks learning to wavedash back and forth, and learning to L-cancel your aerials, and then learning the finer things like wavedashing onto the stage from a ledge, out of a shield, SHFFLing, etc. The latter is much better implemented than Melee at least--you can see when you L-cancel correctly now, so that removes much of the difficulty. I definitely find that I miss L-cancels less often in PM than Melee.
 

666blaziken

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 26, 2013
Messages
419
5 pros and cons of project m
1. no tripping
2. every character has some improvements and feel more fun to play.
3. characters are a lot less clone-like
4. no 0-2 frame buffer with every move.
5. turbo mode... just... wow.
cons
1. unfortunately a minority of people look at this as a mod, and don't support mods of games, especially if it is trying to be "like melee" (even though pm is starting to separate itself more from melee than it used to).
2. not all the characters are done yet, but will be in due time.
3. single player is a little glitchy because not all the characters are done yet.
4. still young in development, so the metagame isn't fully developed. There is a lot more than what has been discovered so far, and people will only find out more when the time comes.
5. (my only legit complaint) while many characters have been amazingly buffed and tweaked to be made incredibly fun, I feel that some of the characters are just their melee selves, and they feel kind of lame. Take captain falcon, everyone else gets something new and unique, and he just stays (for the most part) in melee format. Fox and falco are fine because they are top tier, but the captain needs something to make him somewhat different from melee besides forward b recovery. How about his forward b can have some bowser armor on, and any hit he takes won't make him flinch or take hitstun.

Project M is currently my favorite video game, and it will only get better. Though it suffers mostly just for being a beta, it just goes to show that this game will eventually be the perfect fighting game, and the best successor to the smash series. PMBR has outdone themselves in this one. They started with a melee base and expanded upon it enough to make it feel different, yet it still feels like I am playing melee, but I can do so much more with it. I can't wait for 3.0 to come out: power suit samus or not. Take all of your time and make it a good update, and blow me out of the water just like you did with link in 2.6
 

Fortress

Smash Master
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This brings up a question for me: are there any sort of legal hurdles you have to go through to host a local tournament for Project M? Do entry fees affect the ability to host a tournament, free or not? I live in the middle of what's basically nowhere, and thought of going to the local trading card shop and seeing if something could be set up.
 

trojanpooh

Smash Lord
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Messages
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I don't believe the legal hurdles are any higher than a traditional Brawl/Melee/any game tourney (aka, technically there but most people just look the other way)
 

Fortress

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That's kind of how I felt, is that they're out there, but most people aren't going to pester people about it. Unless, you know, Sakurai, Miyamoto, and the president of Nintendo of America bust down the doors, wearing Galactic Federation Marine powersuits with foam Hylian Shields and Master Swords, demanding all of our candy, goodies, and fun times.

But why would that happen?
 

trojanpooh

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That's kind of how I felt, is that they're out there, but most people aren't going to pester people about it. Unless, you know, Sakurai, Miyamoto, and the president of Nintendo of America bust down the doors, wearing Galactic Federation Marine powersuits with foam Hylian Shields and Master Swords, demanding all of our candy, goodies, and fun times.

But why would that happen?

And honestly who would even complain? That sounds freakin' rad.
 

Ogopogo

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4. still young in development, so the metagame isn't fully developed. There is a lot more than what has been discovered so far, and people will only find out more when the time comes.

I actually like that we don't really know that much about matchups, ATs, and tiers, because then people will play whoever they want without only playing high-tiers.
 

TreK

Is "that guy"
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Might as well ask a Brawl/PM player, eh ?
To a Brawl player, here are the undebatable pros that P:M has :
-Balance patches / dev support
-New characters
-New stages

Those are the things you should emphasize on, because the message you need to convey is that it is a whole new thing. A common misconception is that it is a Melee clone made by butthurt fanatics who've played Brawl for 2 matches and spent the five next years trolling it on Internet forums. For this reason, try not to use the words 'fun' and 'skill', they'll be taken as taunts. Similarly, if you have an exhibition match, try to use both a Melee and a Brawl character that have both been reworked, to show it is indeed not-really-Melee (Bowser vs Charizard on Pokémon Stadium 2, aka epicness incarnate ?) These guys do not play Melee for a reason, so nostalgia is not going to work on them.

If they're Brawl players, they shouldn't care too much about it being a mod, since 90% of us use at least textures, musics and extended replays already. Then again, this is 'murica, so anything is possible :'D

A free tourney is an extremely good excuse to try P:M out (it's what got me into it lol), so if that is financially feasible for you, go for it :V
Just make sure you link them to the necessary resource on your flier so they know how to install it when they get back home.
 

GaretHax

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 30, 2009
Messages
464
PM is made by a DEV team of "Manic" fans who have the audacity and poor commercial mindset to care about the community, players, and competitive aspects of the game. Truly they are ignorant to the ways of the great one, hail Sakurai, heil Nintendo our great and wise leader, may such tomfoolery be washed away by a sea of mediocre and poorly designed "casual" games! But seriously a team of DEV's who actually know what they are doing, and as an added bonus, give a damn about what they are producing, goes a long way. Just tell them it was purposefully designed to be competitive and, at least in early developmental phases wanted to unite the three smash communities under one title. Though the title was meant to more resemble what many consider to be the most competitive and popular title in the series it still draws heavy inspiration from the series as a whole and even from other more traditional 2D fighters.
 

QQQQQQQ7777777

Smash Champion
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Messages
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PM is made by a DEV team of "Manic" fans who have the audacity and poor commercial mindset to care about the community, players, and competitive aspects of the game. Truly they are ignorant to the ways of the great one, hail Sakurai, heil Nintendo our great and wise leader, may such tomfoolery be washed away by a sea of mediocre and poorly designed "casual" games! But seriously a team of DEV's who actually know what they are doing, and as an added bonus, give a damn about what they are producing, goes a long way. Just tell them it was purposefully designed to be competitive and, at least in early developmental phases wanted to unite the three smash communities under one title. Though the title was meant to more resemble what many consider to be the most competitive and popular title in the series it still draws heavy inspiration from the series as a whole and even from other more traditional 2D fighters.
The problem is that we can NEVER unite the community, the brawl fans are just going to look at Project M and think that it was made by the "brain dead melee crowd" who "disrespect" Sakurai`s work by playing it in a way it was never intended to and melee fans are going to complain that they *gasp* CHANGED THINGS FROM MELEE! THOSE EVIL, EVIL PEOPLE!

I`m joking of course, I know not everyone is like that, but there is never going to be compromise in this kind of community just because of the major differences between 64, Melee, and Brawl.
 

trojanpooh

Smash Lord
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The problem is that we can NEVER unite the community, the brawl fans are just going to look at Project M and think that it was made by the "brain dead melee crowd" who "disrespect" Sakurai`s work by playing it in a way it was never intended to and melee fans are going to complain that they *gasp* CHANGED THINGS FROM MELEE! THOSE EVIL, EVIL PEOPLE!

I`m joking of course, I know not everyone is like that, but there is never going to be compromise in this kind of community just because of the major differences between 64, Melee, and Brawl.

Hopefully the advent of the clone engine and the completion of the Brawl roster will entice more casual fans to move over from Brawl. Not because "they're wrong" or "need to be enlightened" or anything, just the bigger and more diverse the community the more understanding other communities will be and the more fun this one will be.
 

Paradoxium

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I got hardcore brawl and melee players to play pm with me by telling them that it is basically a new smash game, with things that every smash player will like, whether they play melee, 64, or brawl.
 

Fortress

Smash Master
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PM is made by a DEV team of "Manic" fans who have the audacity and poor commercial mindset to care about the community, players, and competitive aspects of the game. Truly they are ignorant to the ways of the great one, hail Sakurai, heil Nintendo our great and wise leader, may such tomfoolery be washed away by a sea of mediocre and poorly designed "casual" games!
HAIL SAUKRAI. HAIL SAKURAI. HAIL SAKURAI.
 

Fortress

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I got hardcore brawl and melee players to play pm with me by telling them that it is basically a new smash game, with things that every smash player will like, whether they play melee, 64, or brawl.
This is a good way of putting it. Like the PM staff themselves have stated, PM is not a 1:1 clone of Melee. It's its own beast, with its own rules, nuances, playstyles, and mechanics. It leans heavily on influences of the previous titles, but it's the best, and worst, of all three. It's not perfect, won't be perfect, and I wouldn't have it any other way. Trying to pitch Project M to somebody on the premise that it's like Melee or a better Brawl are poor ways to go about it. Melee is Melee, and Brawl is fun on its own. Each title has brought something new and interesting to the table, and Project M blends those three titles into its very own recipe, and it's great. Your major 'selling' points for Project M, for those who prefer what they're used to, are what most other people have already said:

+A diverse cast of characters from previous titles; anybody comfortable with Melee and Brawl should have an easy time transitioning, and even those who prefer Smash64 will find that some characters feel like they're right off of the cartridge.

+A wonderful reworking of some of the 'meaner' stages of the game; playing should feel chaotic like its supposed to, but not to the point where you're getting beaten up by the game, and not eachother. Being pummeled by the stage will feel funny when it needs to, and not an annoyance that occurs too often.

+Ability to easily customize content of the game, similar to Smash64, Melee, and Brawl. Players can still make the game feel just right to them. If you want Melee Ganondorf, have him, or whatever you'd like (less of a 'pro' and more of a 'feature', really).

+Relatively easy to install and run. There are some hiccoughs every now and again, but they're few and far between for an unmodified version of the mod.

+Growing public support and presence; there are plenty of members of the PM community who are veterans of Smash itself, but plenty of players new to Smash are drawn to PM, and the community (along with the game) is still growing and developing. The feeling of being part of something new(er) and still growing and expanding might be something that keeps people coming back. It's what got me on the boards here as opposed to starting in Melee, after all.

Cons are everything you could expect from a mod, really.

-Not as much 'instant' support and availability as Brawl or Melee

-It's a mod; so you're going to have to do some kind of work to get it up and running, or know somebody who does.

-Developing a presence where Brawl's or Melee's has been established, while easier each day, is not something that comes without some apprehension.

-Waits between updates; not really a bad thing, because of course, it's a sign that the staff are hard at work, round-the-clock working on the game we enjoy. But, you know how it is, a lot of people could just find it easier to go with the instant gratification of having a disc.
 

GaretHax

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 30, 2009
Messages
464
The problem is that we can NEVER unite the community, the brawl fans are just going to look at Project M and think that it was made by the "brain dead melee crowd" who "disrespect" Sakurai`s work by playing it in a way it was never intended to and melee fans are going to complain that they *gasp* CHANGED THINGS FROM MELEE! THOSE EVIL, EVIL PEOPLE!

I`m joking of course, I know not everyone is like that, but there is never going to be compromise in this kind of community just because of the major differences between 64, Melee, and Brawl.
Sorry I don't feel that way, and have seen very little evidence, outside of unpromted and borderline elitist tirades written by members of the PM community WITHIN the PM boards, that anything more than a small amount of players feel that way. And I certainly haven't seen much of that attitude within the local community here, granted some people dislike certain choices the PMBR have made, but that's life people have opinions. This was mine lol.
 

QQQQQQQ7777777

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 27, 2013
Messages
2,300
Sorry I don't feel that way, and have seen very little evidence, outside of unpromted and borderline elitist tirades written by members of the PM community WITHIN the PM boards, that anything more than a small amount of players feel that way. And I certainly haven't seen much of that attitude within the local community here, granted some people dislike certain choices the PMBR have made, but that's life people have opinions. This was mine lol.
As stated at the end, I was joking. I know that not many feel that way.
 
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