Link's Match-ups: Export #6: Kirby

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Match-up #6: Kirby

Link vs. Kirby
35:65 Kiby
This is a weird MU. Link out camps Kirby, even if he copies arrows, Link out ranges Kirby, and can zone better, yet Kirby still has an advantage. It's because when Kirby gets in close, he can really wreck Link. Offstage is just a nightmare, Kirby can kill Link at 0% if he can get a successful swallow off. Kirby does have a few ways to get Link offstage, Bair, Fsmash being the main ones. Do yourself a favor and stay away from the ledges, it's a terrible place to be when Kirby has a great gimping game and can the potential to kill at 0% if your not careful. Because Link is heavy Kirby has a few legitimate combos from a grab. Dthrow to utilt is legit and can be followed up with other moves.

Link still has some things going for him, for one he can kill Kirby much earlier than vice versa if a gimp doesn't happen. We do have range advantage, our Fair and zair can stop aerial approaches even arrows, boomerang, and bombs can force him to approach from the ground. On the ground Zair is harder to hit due to his size, so jab will be a better spacing tool.

If your going to go for a grab or a grounded Spin attack, make sure it connects. If your whiff if, Kirby can Fsmash you into unhappy offstage land.

Stick to battlefield or FD, it's much easier to do this MU if you have space to camp and move around. Jungle Japes, Rainbow Cruise, and Delfino Plaza are bad stages for Link against Kirby. He can take advantage of his gimping so much better here than others.

Important posts:

Forgive me, but wrong. I actually think Kirby isn't too bad of a match-up anymore. He's still bad (who isn't for Link?) but not one of Links top 5, say.

Where to begin? Ah, Kirby's combo! Unless you can do some 4srs mindgames, expect about 40% damage from the combo. Ouch, you just took 40% damage!
...And now what are Kirby's options?
He can get you off stage and gimp you. ...So, how is he going to get you offstage?
Its easier said then done. In facing a competent Kirby, the only move that effectively gets me offstage is fsmash. And that's mostly effective only when I am forced to land in front of him; the only opportunity he has to hit me is my landing lag.
The key is to keep mobile. Utilize your spamming and mindgames to their fullest; Kirby just can't keep up. Its a game of keep away, and Link has the tools to do it against Kirby.

Can't Kirby duck your projectiles?
Only if you aren't playing your projectiles and spacing game well. Admittedly, you have to be doing a fairly bad job if he feels he can afford to duck and mock you.
Only fsmash has the speed, length, strength, and knockback trajectory to take you offstage so that he CAN gimp you. Theoretically, a Link should be able to DI downwards and whiplash back to the stage, but through my slow thought process (...Wait, I can teth--*gimp*) I haven't been able to do it more than once every four times.

Mostly I fear the Kirbycide. Once he has you, there is no escape.

Kirby has a fearsome offstage game, damage buildup combo, a pathetically funny suicidal-but-not-fatal suicide move, and a decent move for knocking you offstage (ONE move). Unfortunately, this alone is enough to put it in Kirby's favor. But not quite as much in his favor as I once feared.

Pretty much, you need to be able to move a control stick around really fast, do some FF nairs, and have faster reactions than me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E49ggUg8sM

As this video shows by my flame choke tech chasing, a third grader can have better reactions than myself.

Ta-da, my stuff on teh G-Kirb.

My apologies then, Fromundaman.
I've faced several Kirbys and none of them have been able to land much other than fsmash on me. Bair certainly does work, but I've found that I'm able to powershield it most of the time. It really is about keeping mobile and avoid getting too high in the air where Kirby really can kick Link's trash.

I've also found that I can generally beat Kirbys in regards to spacing, and am able to DI out of most of Kirby's aerials.

The Gonzo combo can just mindgame into usmash and stuff. I guess I generalized Kirby's grab game as the "grab combo." So what I was referring to was the dthrow to utilt, the grabs that link into usmash, and then the grabs that lead into fair as well. So thanks for helping me clear that up.

I've mentioned the Kirbycide, that thing is again my worst fear ever. In an MM, the Kirby knocked me down one stock, then sucked me up at the edge and walked off at 0% to KO me. That thing is just murder.
At the edge, aside from the Kirbycide and dair spike (and stagespikes, although that fear really counts for everyone) Link has some options to counter Kirby. ledgehopped dairs and FFed nairs, releasing the ledge to pull out a fair, shooting an arrow or boomerang out there to knock Kirby away, or mindgaming with the tether or hopping under the ledge all give him options. In general however the point is for Link to get away from the ledge, and so it really is a dangerous position for Link there anyway. The Kirbycide alone proves that, not taking into account what will happen if Kirby does indeed succeed at knocking you away from the stage. But its not as if Link should just give up there, because making it back onstage is still a probability.

My whole point with this, however, is to note that Kirby is NOT an instant-death matchup if played right. Still is bad.

Also, your argument is NOT null during a tournament, and you have a very valid point by including it. I almost always forget about the tether completely during the matches (as I've already said). But when I do try, I usually get the ledge about one out of every four times. A Kirby can count on their attacks to force Link offstage if they connect. Whiplash recovery should be considered the exception, not the rule.

Kirby mains:

Kirby. His grab game messes with you. Every character can escape after the first uair in fthrow->uair (NO ONE who doesn't use kirby seems to know this, which surprises me), but you're still in a bad position after that. If you get dthrowed by kirby DO NOT attack him. You are asking for him to spotdodge/shield and regrab you. Be campy and stuff when you're at 0% and force us not to grab you until you have some damage on you; it lets you be free from all our grab follow-ups. Still be campy after that. If you get hit offstage, sorry, say goodbye to your stock : /. It's no secret that you have a bad recovery, and neither is the fact that we have one of the best gimping games in Brawl (I'm looking at you, meta knight). Our bair can cancel out your arrows, and we can QD with arrows just like you. I don't know how a Link would fight at close range, and I'm not going to give a solid rating until there's more posts, though I'd say it's 60:40 or better, kirby's favor.

Link falls short to Kirby.

First off arrows are useless. Kirby can duck under most of them, which means Link would have to get the timing right (which would lead to being open). Not only to mention Kirby's copy ability can use arrows too. The boomerang I'm not so sure about. If the boomerang hits Kirby that can lead to a follow-up attack. But the boomerang can be dodged. Sure it might bring Kirby closer to Link, but that means I can start charging up an attack and the boomerang will be me closer to Link (but Link can do the same thing). And bombs, can be simply swallowed by Kirby (giving him 5% damage but no knock back). It leaves him vulnerable, but can keep Kirby from dying. Also Kirby is generally faster than Link but his regular tilt attacks don't do much damage compared to Link's, but his hammer (TIME!, sorry couldn't help but make the joke ) can do some damage. Plus if Link is in the air Kirby can set up his own "wall of pain" against him.

And when it comes to playing around in the air and off-stage. Kirby pretty much wins. Link's
recovery is pretty bad and slow, giving Kirby an opportunity to gimp him even more. And if Link tries to use his spike against him, Kirby can fly out of the way or air-dodge, leading to a SD.
Then last but not least Kirbycide. When done correctly Link is a goner. Swallow him and spit him out under the stage or near a boundary. This pretty much is a guaranteed KO.

I would give the rating 67:33, once again Kirby's favor.


[/myfreaking2cents]

This matchup seems strange to me. You guys outrange us, outzone us, and out-camp us. Yet despite all that, when we get in, we can combo you to hell and back. On top of that, if we get you offstage, well... good game.

The key to winning this matchup is to continually camp us and space all your attacks.
Your Fsmash beats all our moves in range, as does Zair. Your Dair, UpB, Dsmash, and UpB all kill us fairly well (though you don't want to use UpB unless you're sure it works in this MU. A whiffed UpB can get you offstage and gimped.).
Your projectiles are also good at keeping us at bay, or at least until we get them.
Your Utilt is also a great anti-aerial option.


That being said, we also have a lot on you.

Almost all your moves are punishable, and your shieldgrab is basically useless, which along with slow OoS options gives us free reign to attack your shield (Though Kirbies, beware of Dair and UpB OoS!).
Once you're in the air, you are in a bad position, and if offstage, there's a good chance you are dead, even if you have a bomb.
Your weight makes you very comboable as well, and damage racking won't be a problem for us. Put that along with our good KO options and your bad recovery (which it must get annoying having people telling you how bad your recovery is every MU, so I apologize) and Link's got a problem.
Our short size makes Zair harder to hit with, and allows for less mixups with it.

On a side note, your DACUS doesn't seem to useful in this MU, since we're so short.


In this MU, I'd advise Kirby to approach from the air until he gets into Zair distance, at which point a grounded approach might be better.

For Link, I'd suggest he camp his *** off and not mispace anything. It will be a hard matchup to win.

Personally, I'd say 70-30 Kirby, but maybe I'm just biased, since even the best Links I've played have given me little trouble.

You know, we have more than just one combo, as well as more than one way to get you offstage. Bair can get you offstage just as well as Fsmash, and is more likely to hit. At higher percents, Ftilt will get you offstage as well. On top of that, many of our aerials chain into each other, and because of that, Fair is also a viable way of getting you offstage.
Inhaling and just walking offstage then just spitting you out works too, and hammer does as well, though hammer does make edgeguarding a bit harder (Still easy, but less so.).

As for being able to cancel a lot of our moves Knockback via tether: Yeah, it's possible, but odds are you won't be getting that consistently, and most people won't at all (though we are talking about highest level of play, so the second arguement is null.). Even if you do, you're now at the edge, which isn't exactly a great position for you vs Kirby.

For this reason, Dsmash and second hit hammer are also pretty decent for knocking you offstage, though not as good as the others.

At lower percents, Bthrow can get you offstage as well.

Basically, no, we do have options for raking up damage after a Gonzo (which is rarely used anymore since every character can SDI out after 18%.), or more likely, Dthrow combos, and a whole lot more options than you mention for getting you offstage.

Kirby's 0% killer:

Ah, that...

Well, the thing is, it's not guaranteed on Link. I mean, it's still scary for you guys, but basically we have to guess which way you'll DI when you get out and DI that way while spamming jump the moment you break free (and I believe we have to be falling straight down. That's the case for most of our inhale break footstools anyway, though maybe moving sideways slightly would make it guaranteed? (It does on Snake) Sadly, I can't test this atm... ah well.).

Stages:

*not much on this*

Good job you guys, this has a lot of good info.

 

[pulse131]

well i cant remember the last time i played a good kirby but these few pointers r useful. good werk

 

[6Mizu]

Recover smart!
Kirby can easily gimp Link (obvisouly)
Also, from being a ROB main/experienced camper....kirby has trouble getting around camping...just be sure to vary projectils (what order you use them, how you use them, etc.)
Link can give kirby a hard time recovering if done correctly.
The reason I know this I because....well my best friend (Twilightlink421) is a link main.
Gonzo combo can be DI out of.....just jump after the first Uair....or something like that.

 

[Onomanic]

God, I hate this match up. Kirby's annoying to play against. Space, and zair isn't as effective as before, for you can only get in one hit of it (I think ._.). Avoid getting grabbed and bomb the hell out of him.