Link & Toon Link match up advices plus gameplay critique

[Rybaia]

Hallo to everyone.
I've not post a lot in the past but now I'll try to be more active and I'll try to give my contribute to improve the character that I love the most.
I've open this topic because I've a problem to face Toon Link and Link (generally all the characters that have projectiles).
Usually at tournaments the smashers that main this two characters give me a lot of trubles.

Unfortunately I wasn't able to record matches with some Toon Link main so I'll link only matches against Link.

Red * = I lost the match
Green * = I win the match

Kamui Ryu vs Blue Link

* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Grj2NW_Mldk
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2AeHxI9iv4
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fR0iTYuI1FA
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ww4ZnxbnCo
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=as5VlpZviYg
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxY9Uuj4lKI
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klBCLNtHPzs
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib0SqkrTNVM
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QGXlgFTuPw
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuQS7BBZc38
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzNm-4wWmi4
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDNtIoaLfbQ



This matches are about 2 months ago.
I'm improved (I space better in general, I'm a bit less predicable and I know I can use the fthrow chain grab on Link) but I think that this and other players can give me a hard time to the next tournament in December.
I know that there are a lot of videos but I hope that someone can at least watch a few of these to give me some advices.




Sorry for my bad english, I hope you guys can understand =/

 

[Nefarious B]

I'm trying to figure out wtf happened 1:21 first match. Super flubbed bair? It only did 7 damage, and bair was fresh

 

[ph00tbag]

If Link whiffs a laggy move or hits your shield with one, grab him.

More importantly, stop getting hit by projectiles. You don't need to attack through them if there's no opening you can find.

Also, your suit piece game lacks fluency. Work on that a bit more.

IF YOU HIT WITH ONE DSMASH, DSMASH AGAIN!

 

[Rybaia]

If Link whiffs a laggy move or hits your shield with one, grab him.

More importantly, stop getting hit by projectiles. You don't need to attack through them if there's no opening you can find.

Also, your suit piece game lacks fluency. Work on that a bit more.

IF YOU HIT WITH ONE DSMASH, DSMASH AGAIN!

Thanks ph00tbag =D
I know that my suitspace game is maybe the worst ever =(
I'll focus on that.

The main problem are the projectiles, sometimes I really don't know how to dodge them whitout getting punished by the enemy after that and the result is that I take evrything in the face =/

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I'm trying to figure out wtf happened 1:21 first match. Super flubbed bair? It only did 7 damage, and bair was fresh

I think its a frontal hit, temporarily when turning around the leg. Looks like it never been found cuz NOBODY USES THAT HITBOX

 

[Nefarious B]

I actually use the frontside bair sometimes if I get a dsmash on them offstage but they're not in position to down b. I'm pretty sure that hitbox does 11 or 12 damage though, and it also sends them forward horizontally (if you're facing 6 they fly 6), not up like that one did. Frontside bair combos just as well as nair at low percents btw, but it's so difficult to hit with and very unsafe on block.

This is gonna sound really weird, I have a theory. Some of our hitboxes make me feel like our momentum affects the direction of the kb. I personally cannot ever land nair 3 on an opponent unless I'm crossing over, and it feels to me like the forward momentum pulls them with you. Frontside bair is another example, where I can't land the hitbox unless I'm approaching them facing forward and hit them with her body as she bairs. It doesn't seem like it's just a part of the hitbox, but that you also actually have to be moving a certain way for it to hit like that, and if that's true we need to look into this a lot more.

 

[noradseven]

I actually use the frontside bair sometimes if I get a dsmash on them offstage but they're not in position to down b. I'm pretty sure that hitbox does 11 or 12 damage though, and it also sends them forward horizontally (if you're facing 6 they fly 6), not up like that one did. Frontside bair combos just as well as nair at low percents btw, but it's so difficult to hit with and very unsafe on block.

This is gonna sound really weird, I have a theory. Some of our hitboxes make me feel like our momentum affects the direction of the kb. I personally cannot ever land nair 3 on an opponent unless I'm crossing over, and it feels to me like the forward momentum pulls them with you. Frontside bair is another example, where I can't land the hitbox unless I'm approaching them facing forward and hit them with her body as she bairs. It doesn't seem like it's just a part of the hitbox, but that you also actually have to be moving a certain way for it to hit like that, and if that's true we need to look into this a lot more.

its not that unsafe on block if you confuse the oppenent where you are going to land, I think its also frontside b-air I have gotten it a decent bit.

 

[Rybaia]

I'm trying to figure out wtf happened 1:21 first match. Super flubbed bair? It only did 7 damage, and bair was fresh

Are you talking about the bair at 1:41?

Like this one at 2:26

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0em4EGL79fc

I use it a lot if I Dsmash off stage and the opponent position didn't allow me to stage spike or Down B spike him.
My opponts usually know how to tech the Dsmash bair stage spike so I usually do this "reverse" bair because is safer.
Is something that I've learned back on Melee with Falcon.
Your opponent usually didn't expect a reverse Knee or a reverse attack in general so he misses the DI or even worse he DI completly wrong and die at very low %.
So I've just practiced the "reverse" bair on the ledge.

EDIT: I've fix'd the links so there'll be less problems now.

 

[Nefarious B]

No the one you pointed out if the forward hitbox of bair, that's normal and well known.

Look at 1:21 of this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Grj2NW_Mldk. That is not the same hitbox as the normal frontal bair, it looks more like a sourspot uair. If it was the normal front hitbox of bair link would have gone much further horizontally, I don't think DI can possibly make the trajectory change that much.

 

[Rybaia]

No the one you pointed out if the forward hitbox of bair, that's normal and well known.

Look at 1:21 of this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Grj2NW_Mldk. That is not the same hitbox as the normal frontal bair, it looks more like a sourspot uair. If it was the normal front hitbox of bair link would have gone much further horizontally, I don't think DI can possibly make the trajectory change that much.

But that is an Uair =D
Watch it closely.

 

[Nefarious B]

Oh i see it now, thats tough to tell but yeah, false alarm hahah, i was like how have we never seen this before

Things that you can work on:
Juggling, force his airdodge with up b then uair him, or bait the airdodge/dair and follow him down and uair him to reset

After dtilts, try mixing up your strings, you were pretty predictable with going for the aerial immediately

When you're in his face, his only real options are to jab, grab, or run away. Just shield, prepare to dodge if he grabs (you can dodge on reaction), and punish w/e he does

 

[Rybaia]

Oh i see it now, thats tough to tell but yeah, false alarm hahah, i was like how have we never seen this before

Things that you can work on:
Juggling, force his airdodge with up b then uair him, or bait the airdodge/dair and follow him down and uair him to reset

After dtilts, try mixing up your strings, you were pretty predictable with going for the aerial immediately

When you're in his face, his only real options are to jab, grab, or run away. Just shield, prepare to dodge if he grabs (you can dodge on reaction), and punish w/e he does

Thank you very much.
I'll work also on these.
I hope I can be helpful in the future.

 

[oze6000]

I'm watching video 8:
At 2:52 I think one of your flaws is shown, use of the down B, or lack of. Its an extremely versatile move that changes up your gameplay spectacularly if used right. Now you seem like a very good ZSS, probably better than me, so i don't have to say something like don't overuse it or don't be predictable. But it the kick has huge priority, and in the right situations (like 2:52), jumping off of his head with down B's special jump to a side B could have pushed him off the edge and let you attack him in the air.At 3:34 you used it very well, links moves have a decent start up time, and you can time it right so you're invincibility saves you, and you can kick him off the stage.

Which leads me to another point. Punish him in the air. ZSS is great when you're below him and level with him. At about 3:10 he was in great position to be dealt with. Control the air with ZSS, she is fast, and has one of (if not the best) uairs in the game. Don't be afraid to juggle. If you're afraid of being punished with link's down air, just remember your up B can hit him out of it, or at least block it, and both toon link's and link's down air are very predictable.

At the start you didn't have control of your items. Use them as a shield. ZSS can be untouchable with those items. Juggle them, and punish him if he ever dares to touch the ground.

I like your short hop aerial attacks, but i think you may need some work on the spacing with them. You use those to try to push him off the edge a lot, but i think that you need to ledge guard him better.
At 2:28 i think that may have been a great opportunity for a downB spike. Keep an eye out for those. Like i said, you need to utilize downB better. It seems like this link was completely unaware of the move, and you could have hit hit several times with it, including at 2:39, instead of doing an aerial attack coming off the ledge. Also at 0:36 you could have used it to escape.
And down smash didn't work out for you that game. It kept him on his toes, but i think you used it a little too much. Unfortunately you got screwed because i saw that it totally hit him during the match but he didn't get stunned and knocked you off the edge with the ending lag.
0:44-:47 was a good section for you. You beat him in the air, forced him to ground himself and punished him for being unprepared when he landed again. Nice spacing.

To sum it up, use down B, and punish him when he is in the air, especially over the edge.

Now vid 3:
Gotta use those suit pieces better. Practice using them to defend yourself better.
And punish him when he is off the side of the edge. ZSS has a good recovery, tether, yes, but he didn't look like he was into ledge hogging. Don't be afraid to go down and meet him before he can use his upB to recover. you were at a pretty good spot to backair him into the level for a spike.
Juggle him with you uair, get him to act predictably, exploit him in the air.

Nice vids though. I should figure out how to get some of mine up, i need some critiques too, but i'm lacking decent competition to play against at the moment. =(

 

[Rybaia]

Thank you very much oze6000, I really appriciate your critique.
I'll work hard on those things.