Link seems a little OP...

[dusty22]

Now I'm not a pro Smasher. I don't know the exact mechanics that are being referred to with terms like "teching" or "hitlag" or stuff like that. I don't use techniques like wavedashing, nor do I know exactly how tier-lists are figured (I thought it had to do with combo potential mostly at like a serious pro level?) But I have played Melee, Brawl, and Project M. I'm also an across-the-board Link main for pretty much all the smash games.

To be honest, Link seems noticeably OP to me in the latest release of Project M. I noticed he has received a lot of buffs from Brawl (which I didn't think he was too bad there to be honest ). My brother kept saying how difficult Link was to beat, how he was "very strong" and I just thought he was blowing smoke a bit. Then he took Link, and said "I'll show you."

I was flabbergasted. Link was a monster, even though he wasn't an avid Link player like me. Compared to all my fighting with him beforehand, whether I was Link, Zelda, Ganondorf, Kirby, etc. and he would be Mewtwo, Mario, or Roy usually... I thought outright "This will be VERY difficult." Link took it to another level! Or at least that's how it seemed.

 

[JDM6413]

He's slow. Get in on him and he has trouble getting you off of him.

 

[dusty22]

Slow? Slow?

I don't know about that. In our gameplay like I said, we don't use advanced-leet techniques, but just normal stuff, in case that comes into play for balance... but from our viewpoint he just seems semi-ridiculous to me...

 

[PillsBuryDopeBoy]

Link is far away from being considered "OP". Despite the fact that PMBR buffed link speed wise, he's still pretty slow. His strength lies in zoning, and controlling the field of battle..... but he has trouble the moment a character sticks onto him.

 

[PhantasyStar]

Alright, i'm really done with people thinking every character is OP. Link is not OP, learn the match-up and stop complaining.

 

[Player -0]

I noticed he has received a lot of buffs from Brawl (which I didn't think he was too bad there to be honest )

I go into this thread looking for a laugh.... I've found it....

I mean he wasn't terrible but still.
________________________
I'm guessing the matches were just spin attack and you guys got wrecked.

 

[Fortress]

It's already been brought up, but Link's biggest weakness is that he does not handle being pressured up close very well. Once somebody gets in close, his slow attack speed, slow startup for projectiles, and awkward/weak wavedash severely limit his options. Some good options when playing defense with Link are the usual out-of-shield grab and spin attack, and of course proper DI.

If you and your crew aren't using any advanced tech at all like you say, then Link should be even slower than usual. Even with high-level tech, Link is a sluggish character. As for tier-age, he ranks somewhere between mid to high-mid usually. He's a middle-of-the-road character with plenty of options from a distance, solid attacking strength and speed up close, and plenty of recovery options and advanced mixups, but still leans a little toward the slower/heavier side.

 

[Problem2]

Link is a good character with a pretty low learning curve, especially at the start. I would argue against Fortress and say that Link thrives even better in an environment without advanced techniques. Advanced tech is what you need to get in on Link and hold your advantage with excellent pressure. Zoning and defensive play does not rely as heavily on technical moving speed.

Don't get me wrong, learning to be proficient with your character and with advanced tech is important and will improve ALL play styles, but offense clearly benefits more than defense. Without the tech, you can still make a relatively good zoning game, but without the tech, you lose frame advantage with laggier aerials and you may have trouble closing the distance on your opponent without good movement control.

Everyone above is pretty much spot on with Link's biggest weakness though. He doesn't have a ton of fast options up close. The best traits to avoiding pressure is usually good movement speed or a fast option out of shield (less than 7 frames). Link has one of the slowest running speeds and one of the slowest jumping animations. In addition, his fastest option out of shield is his up-b, which hits on frame 8, and doesn't even work against opponents at low percent. (they'll recover from the blow before you finish spinning)

Link did gain a really really REALLY good anti-pressure option in PM though. His d-smash now comes out on FRAME 4!! (wow, much ridiculous!). This can't be done oos shield though and can also be baited. On the plus side though, d-smash is a good option to use after crouch cancel.

And I feel like I should at least mention one of the biggest complaints that I always hear about Link, and that is his boomerang. His boomerang has some traits, that individually are good, but not game breaking. The combination of all these traits into the same move seem to push it over the edge of acceptable for many however. The boomerang comes out pretty fast, does a bunch of damage (16% sweetspot), is a massive combo starter, does amazing shield stun, and just occupies space for so long makes iit one of the best projectiles in the game. The more I play Link, the more I discover that his boomerang usually defines the match-up. From the opposing of Link, the opponent's first priority is learning with how to deal with Link's boomerang. I've seen some nice creativity come out of this, but on the other hand, I can adjust to their strategy and take advantage of all the extra work they have to do in order to get around it.

I don't think much will be changed about Link in the future, but if they do decide to change something, I think the Boomerang will be nerfed. Likely will be slower to throw out or something.

 

[Player -0]

Link is a good character with a pretty low learning curve, especially at the start. I would argue against Fortress and say that Link thrives even better in an environment without advanced techniques. Advanced tech is what you need to get in on Link and hold your advantage with excellent pressure. Zoning and defensive play does not rely as heavily on technical moving speed.

Don't get me wrong, learning to be proficient with your character and with advanced tech is important and will improve ALL play styles, but offense clearly benefits more than defense. Without the tech, you can still make a relatively good zoning game, but without the tech, you lose frame advantage with laggier aerials and you may have trouble closing the distance on your opponent without good movement control.

Everyone above is pretty much spot on with Link's biggest weakness though. He doesn't have a ton of fast options up close. The best traits to avoiding pressure is usually good movement speed or a fast option out of shield (less than 7 frames). Link has one of the slowest running speeds and one of the slowest jumping animations. In addition, his fastest option out of shield is his up-b, which hits on frame 8, and doesn't even work against opponents at low percent. (they'll recover from the blow before you finish spinning)

Link did gain a really really REALLY good anti-pressure option in PM though. His d-smash now comes out on FRAME 4!! (wow, much ridiculous!). This can't be done oos shield though and can also be baited. On the plus side though, d-smash is a good option to use after crouch cancel.

And I feel like I should at least mention one of the biggest complaints that I always hear about Link, and that is his boomerang. His boomerang has some traits, that individually are good, but not game breaking. The combination of all these traits into the same move seem to push it over the edge of acceptable for many however. The boomerang comes out pretty fast, does a bunch of damage (16% sweetspot), is a massive combo starter, does amazing shield stun, and just occupies space for so long makes iit one of the best projectiles in the game. The more I play Link, the more I discover that his boomerang usually defines the match-up. From the opposing of Link, the opponent's first priority is learning with how to deal with Link's boomerang. I've seen some nice creativity come out of this, but on the other hand, I can adjust to their strategy and take advantage of all the extra work they have to do in order to get around it.

I don't think much will be changed about Link in the future, but if they do decide to change something, I think the Boomerang will be nerfed. Likely will be slower to throw out or something.

Yeah, I was playing against this dude in wifi and he was playing Link *I didn't want to do Link dittos* and all he did was spin attack and boomerang..... I'm wondering how much you can camp with JUST boomerang and zair, because at one point he just sat there and boomerang spammed and I couldn't get in. Wifi didn't help.... He was 3 character lengths away though :l

I feel like if boomerang is nerfed it'll be that Link never catches it so he's unable to use it for a little while. That sound pretty dumb though.

 

[Problem2]

Never catching it would be a really weird change and would cause a whole lot of problems in teams. I don't think that would happen. What it really needs is just the original start-up or perhaps return the catching animation, but with reduced lag.

You can also make the boomerang travel further too. Another issue is that after Link throws it, you don't have a whole lot of time to get in before the boomerang returns, trying to hit you in the back.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

I can't believe threads like this still pop up. If something feels polarizing what you should really do is hit the lab. To be honest, if you think a character is "OP" it tends to be brought about because one or two things you aren't used to, advanced techniques or not (Link has only a couple of these to begin with)

There's a chance you've encountered a bad match-up, but I can promise you Link is actually in fact not Overpowered and does have weaknesses, some of which have been touched upon. There's plenty of more powerful characters, haha

 

[Problem2]

yeah, for sure. Link is definitely NOT the best character in the game, but as the PMBR has done time and time again, some character changes are not purely about balancing the winning potential of the cast, but trying to make the game deep and exciting. I explained that Link is a good character (but not Top tier), but he has a really easy move that has led to several discussions. Hylian, one of the lead testers for Link, has said not to expect many more changes to Link from this point on. Everything else about Link is likely here to stay.

 

[Fortress]

Link is a good character with a pretty low learning curve

Would you like to run that by me one more time?

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

If this is PM then he's a little OP. If this Brawl... then nope.. especially the ways you guys use Link makes me cringe with rage.

 

[Mr.Random]

Would you like to run that by me one more time?

I know right? I was about to say "HELLO?!". He definitely takes some precision and good spacing. As well as learning the right situations to use the boomerang, arrows, and bombs.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Having mained Link most of my life, I can say that Link is God Tier in a low tech environment. Between his projectiles and spin attack, he can tear apart basically anyone, especially in PM. He has okay speed on his smashes. While they're too slow for super competitive level, they're plenty fast enough for casual play. I could take out the top 3 in my dorm (3 on 1) as Link until they picked up more technical skill. Then my Link suffered and had close battles in 1 on 1. You don't realize it at a low level, but at a high level, those tier lists make a whole lot of difference.

Link too OP? No, but only because at a higher level of play, he begins to suffer. At a low level, he's God Tier

 

[PillsBuryDopeBoy]

Besides guys..... who plays when you can play ?

 

[Wolf_]

OP? Not a chance, he still suffers under pressure, and once you learn to deal with the tether, his recovery isn't as good as it first seems(though I still think it's pretty good)

I think he's high tier, honestly I think he's fine, I just hope the PMBR leaves him alone, but I think Rat didn't like a lot of the stuff I pulled off on him with Link(Zair stuff I think), so I have a feeling there's discussion of nerfing him going on in the back room lol

 

[dusty22]

Is teching one of the only advanced techniques in Brawl/PM?

Anyway, yes, we play low-tech. But in that environment at least, Link seems to be far above most others. Like, after several matches with my bro, and then he picked Link, I found my brain telling me a little bit into the match "Get ready. This will be much more difficult!"

Is that the reason why Link is dominant in low-tech, because that's all he's good at in PM?

 

[PillsBuryDopeBoy]

Is teching one of the only advanced techniques in Brawl/PM?

Anyway, yes, we play low-tech. But in that environment at least, Link seems to be far above most others. Like, after several matches with my bro, and then he picked Link, I found my brain telling me a little bit into the match "Get ready. This will be much more difficult!"

Is that the reason why Link is dominant in low-tech, because that's all he's good at in PM?

Er... no teching is not the only advance technique in Brawl/PM. Hell I dont even think teching can really be considered an advance technique.
Now I dont main link, But i've played enough links to understand that for link to really be successful, the player using him should be using all the advance techniques at his disposal (wavedashing, wavelanding, L-cancelling, ATGing and such). And about your loses against Link, I dont think they have really anything to do with link being OP, just that you dont really know how to face Link.

 

[Player -0]

Is teching one of the only advanced techniques in Brawl/PM?

Anyway, yes, we play low-tech. But in that environment at least, Link seems to be far above most others. Like, after several matches with my bro, and then he picked Link, I found my brain telling me a little bit into the match "Get ready. This will be much more difficult!"

Is that the reason why Link is dominant in low-tech, because that's all he's good at in PM?

I believe there are some people that talked about why Link is so good in low tech....

Having mained Link most of my life, I can say that Link is God Tier in a low tech environment. Between his projectiles and spin attack, he can tear apart basically anyone, especially in PM. He has okay speed on his smashes. While they're too slow for super competitive level, they're plenty fast enough for casual play. I could take out the top 3 in my dorm (3 on 1) as Link until they picked up more technical skill. Then my Link suffered and had close battles in 1 on 1. You don't realize it at a low level, but at a high level, those tier lists make a whole lot of difference.

Link too OP? No, but only because at a higher level of play, he begins to suffer. At a low level, he's God Tier

Pretty much this.

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

Link is a good character with a pretty low learning curve, especially at the start. I would argue against Fortress and say that Link thrives even better in an environment without advanced techniques. Advanced tech is what you need to get in on Link and hold your advantage with excellent pressure. Zoning and defensive play does not rely as heavily on technical moving speed.

Don't get me wrong, learning to be proficient with your character and with advanced tech is important and will improve ALL play styles, but offense clearly benefits more than defense. Without the tech, you can still make a relatively good zoning game, but without the tech, you lose frame advantage with laggier aerials and you may have trouble closing the distance on your opponent without good movement control.

Everyone above is pretty much spot on with Link's biggest weakness though. He doesn't have a ton of fast options up close. The best traits to avoiding pressure is usually good movement speed or a fast option out of shield (less than 7 frames). Link has one of the slowest running speeds and one of the slowest jumping animations. In addition, his fastest option out of shield is his up-b, which hits on frame 8, and doesn't even work against opponents at low percent. (they'll recover from the blow before you finish spinning)

Link did gain a really really REALLY good anti-pressure option in PM though. His d-smash now comes out on FRAME 4!! (wow, much ridiculous!). This can't be done oos shield though and can also be baited. On the plus side though, d-smash is a good option to use after crouch cancel.

And I feel like I should at least mention one of the biggest complaints that I always hear about Link, and that is his boomerang. His boomerang has some traits, that individually are good, but not game breaking. The combination of all these traits into the same move seem to push it over the edge of acceptable for many however. The boomerang comes out pretty fast, does a bunch of damage (16% sweetspot), is a massive combo starter, does amazing shield stun, and just occupies space for so long makes iit one of the best projectiles in the game. The more I play Link, the more I discover that his boomerang usually defines the match-up. From the opposing of Link, the opponent's first priority is learning with how to deal with Link's boomerang. I've seen some nice creativity come out of this, but on the other hand, I can adjust to their strategy and take advantage of all the extra work they have to do in order to get around it.

I don't think much will be changed about Link in the future, but if they do decide to change something, I think the Boomerang will be nerfed. Likely will be slower to throw out or something.

I'll admit that the boomerang is a really strong tool. But I don't agree with the idea of nerfing it.

I mean sure, nerfing the 'rang is an option, but it shouldn't be changed more than it has been already.

I mean, I may be a tad biased because I play the character and think he's solid as-is.

He still can't deal with offense, and needs strong tools for when he's doing his job right. (Controlling the mid-long range)

I'd add more, but I'd be parroting you and many others in the thread already.

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

DON'T NERF LINK. PLEASE.

 

[HarryTheChin]

Link is the hero that PM needs just not the one that needs to be nerfed now.

 

[Fortress]

I still don't get all of this **** talk about Link needing nerfs, or being OP. Everybody says every character is 'OP' at some point, and it's silly. Link's right in the middle of most tier lists. He's good, but, come on, we all know he's not top tier, barely even top mid.

 

[DMG]

I'm tired of projectiles being buffed. 60% of Link MU's are Boomerang related

 

[Player -0]

I'm tired of projectiles being buffed. 60% of Link MU's are Boomerang related

The boomerang was changed to synergize with Link's playstyle better.

 

[SleepyTRex]

Everyone is bad with pressure in this game lol everyone combos up the ass

Links recovery and boomerang are bs

 

[Player -0]

Going to ignore that post....

Ehh, I'll take the bait.

Link's recovery is very good with AGT, Bomb jumping, and his tether but if he's far away you can intercept his bomb jump.

Boomerang is good but you can weave in, you have to play the match up for that.

 

[DMG]

Link didn't need that many recovery buffs to start with though. The tether option is basically better in this game than Melee, Upb itself got buffed, he didn't have AGT like this in Melee, AND he can still bomb jump. I'd personally revert Upb back. 80% of the time, Link doesn't need it to get back, so it might as well "kinda suck" a bit.

 

[Player -0]

It was probably to help with the Melee tether mechanics not making it in (due to coding). I don't get how P:M tether mechanics are better than Melee.

 

[SleepyTRex]

I just dont see why if Links recovery is able to cover such an enormous distance why he also gets an up b hard to even trade with. Unless your Marth i like Marth he's awesome.

 

[Player -0]

There are many characters with amazing recoveries in P:M. Not sure what you're talking about with the Marth thing.

 

[DMG]

It was probably to help with the Melee tether mechanics not making it in (due to coding). I don't get how P:M tether mechanics are better than Melee.

PM tether mechanics are better than Melee. You don't automatically hone in on the edge in Melee, and Melee tethers that were used too close to walls completely failed. I haven't had that happen yet, although I know about most of the tether bugs they are trying to fix atm.


You can fall under an edge, be completely vertical to it, and tether lock in PM. Melee can't match that versatility: the only thing the Melee one has is that grappling weird walls or grappling very low and then using Upb was doable. That's so minor compared to the current way.

Either way, the point is that Link got his recovery buffed in nearly every aspect. He got new tools, and apparently that wasn't enough so they just buffed nearly every aspect. And if I read correctly somewhere, Link also had his horizontal air speed slightly increased, and his normal fall speed decreased. That benefits him drifting to the stage.

 

[Player -0]

PM tether mechanics are better than Melee. You don't automatically hone in on the edge in Melee, and Melee tethers that were used too close to walls completely failed. I haven't had that happen yet, although I know about most of the tether bugs they are trying to fix atm.


You can fall under an edge, be completely vertical to it, and tether lock in PM. Melee can't match that versatility: the only thing the Melee one has is that grappling weird walls or grappling very low and then using Upb was doable. That's so minor compared to the current way.

Either way, the point is that Link got his recovery buffed in nearly every aspect. He got new tools, and apparently that wasn't enough so they just buffed nearly every aspect. And if I read correctly somewhere, Link also had his horizontal air speed slightly increased, and his normal fall speed decreased. That benefits him drifting to the stage.

I don't feel like arguing/discussing about Link anymore (done with this thread I guess).
But...
- Being too close to the stage in Melee could be remedied by airdodging away, No?
- Grappling lower walls is really big in my opinion.
- Most stages have a lip under the edge which allows for grappling there.

I see what you mean with the autolock, that helps a lot with some of the more brawl-esque stages (Lylat, Delphino) and in general but with many viable stages having walls that extend to the blastzone being able to tether to them would boost recovery much more than autolock can.

It would probably make recoveries TOO good.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Trap Link in his shield. With frame 6 jump, he has (together with Ganon and Dedede) the secondslowest jump (Bowsers is 8 frames). The up-B and shieldgrab OOS are also slower than most characters OOS game. Intercept with his recovery and you can get quick kills sometimes (or if you fight a expert of bomb jumping, at least reck up percent). You just need to pressure without being reckless.
Link is good, but under that limit where nerfing begins...

 

[Problem2]

Link's Brawl/PM Tether
pros:
+ Easy to sweetspot because it always sweet spots when it works.
+ You can cancel the tether by pressing down.
+ You can tether up to 3 times without landing.
+ You can tether wall-less ledges.
cons:
- The tether reach is shorter.
- There is no hitbox at all when tethering.
- You can't recover low by tethering a wall.
- PM tethers like to bug out and occasionally not work for no understandable reason.

Link's Melee Tether
pros:
+ The tether is actually longer.
+ The tether has a hitbox while it is being fired and when it grabs the wall/ledge.
+ You can tether anywhere on a wall, allowing you to combat and recover low.
cons:
- Sweetspot tethering requires practice. (oh no!)
- You only have one angle to sweet spot, which is directly in front of the ledge.
- You can only tether once without landing.
- If you tether while too close to the wall/stage, the tether fails.
- You can't tether ledges with no walls.

I enjoy the Melee tether more simply because I know more strategy with it and from my perspective, it is more interactive with the edge guarder. (The edge guarder knows where you have to be to sweet spot, but you can also recover low or try to hit them with the hookshot.)

Which is more effective and beneficial? Probably the Brawl tether. Grabbing 3 times, auto-sweet spot, and tether cancelling are better traits. Link doesn't have a real distance recovering issue because of the extremely buffed bomb jump and AGT, so the longer tether isn't necessary.

 

[SleepyTRex]

Link should get a glide with Roc's cape

 

[Apollo Ali]

Link didn't need that many recovery buffs to start with though. The tether option is basically better in this game than Melee, Upb itself got buffed, he didn't have AGT like this in Melee, AND he can still bomb jump. I'd personally revert Upb back. 80% of the time, Link doesn't need it to get back, so it might as well "kinda suck" a bit.

DMG wanting to nerf a formerly low-tier character with projectiles. How surprising.

I am generally on the side of allowing characters to stay the way they are and to avoid nerfs. I think Link is excellently balanced as he is (although Link's tweaks in 3.0 were great because they added nuance, which is always go). Unless recoveries overall get nerfed (as they are significantly more powerful in this game than in Melee), Up-B is fine the way it is. A lot of spikes trade with it (Falco, Wolf, Charizard and Ness come to mind) with the end result that Link can't recover and the spiker survives. As it stands, Link recovers very well horizontally but if a character has a spike and stays on top of Link when he's below the stage, he's pretty much ****ed. I think that's pretty cool.

 

[Player -0]

You said his recovery was bs and now you want it buffed? Please leave this thread. No seriously, let this thread die.