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Link Matchups Thread

SAUS

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I'll check out the video later. As for Mario / Doc, they used projectiles sometimes, but being on a platform pretty much makes them useless. They were not really a problem for me. I am not sure if Doc is better at gimping. The way the mario player edge guarded me was let go of edge -> back air. Jumping if needed. It can catch you out of the hookshot and then you are basically dead. If I up-b, he would cape me so I am facing the wrong way and completely messes up my sweetspot, then f-smash. It was actually pretty rough. The guy knew what he was doing.

The main thing with Doc, I found, is that pills are more annoying than the fireballs (not by that much though) and his fair makes his combos way more deadly. There's a lot of points where his throw just combos into fair and it kills you. I think the mario I faced in tournament was better than the docs I played in friendlies.
 

Team Plasma N

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The Pika tail spike is Uair? Whoops, then I guess the Pikas I've played might have been approaching me with Uairs then (they did land the tail spike on me a few times). Their Nair and Uair look so similar.... Edit: Nevermind, it really might have been Nair that the Pikas approached with. I should have paid more attention to which one it was :/ .

This may sound stupid, but in regards to Doc, can the pills even be powershielded? I don't ever recall seeing a pill powershielded ever, and whenever I've tried it intentionally I can't seem to pull it off. It makes powershielding Falco's lasers seem like a breeze.

Edit: Nevermind, RetroGamersGuru's Doc vs Link vid showed me it's possible.
 
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SAUS

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The Pika tail spike is Uair? Whoops, then I guess the Pikas I've played might have been approaching me with Uairs then (they did land the tail spike on me a few times). Their Nair and Uair look so similar.... Edit: Nevermind, it really might have been Nair that the Pikas approached with. I should have paid more attention to which one it was :/ .

This may sound stupid, but in regards to Doc, can the pills even be powershielded? I don't ever recall seeing a pill powershielded ever, and whenever I've tried it intentionally I can't seem to pull it off. It makes powershielding Falco's lasers seem like a breeze.

Edit: Nevermind, RetroGamersGuru's Doc vs Link vid showed me it's possible.
Ya they are just awkward because they move slow. Falco also shoots a lot of lasers lol, and you'd probably practice that much more over Doc's pills. Who plays Doc, anyway? lol
 

Bravo_10

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I've always found Pikachu to be fairly easy for Link. His out of shield options get him out of all but perfectly-spaced pressure (u-air has surprising reach behind Pika), but his approach options are just terrible. Nairs and jabs wall Pikachu out really well, and he's extremely easy to combo. Perhaps the most difficult thing about Pika-Link is that his shield is just so poor. Link has always been a proficient shield stabber, and mixing up d-smashes and turn around u-tilts makes it really hard for Pikachu to keep angling his shield to meet your attacks. I'm not the best Link player, but even good Pikachus like N64 have to consistently outplay me to win the MU.

Mario on the other hand, can be a bit of a struggle. SAUS said it perfectly, the punishes on his end are super strong, and he's really slippery to boot. J666 beat A Rookie at a tournament called Mayhem recently, so if you can find a video of that, it might give you some ideas. Against Mario, I pretty much just accept being juggled and chain grabbed for a lot of percent. Mario has problems removing stocks if you can avoid his smash attacks, and reaching a high enough percent that d-throw f-smash no longer works means he'll pretty much be fishing for smash reads or strong nairs. You also can easily use your ranged advantage against him, and predicting when he'll cape projectiles can give you an edge in zoning.

/edit: And against Link's somewhat short recovery, Mario and Doc are going to be pretty much equivalent with their ledge drop bair gimp capability. Doc's bair does hit at a better semi-spike though.
 
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The Carpenter

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I think Link/Pika is in Links favor. I mentioned at one point that a buddy of mine picked up Pika a few months back and he has trouble with my Link. He seems to have a hard time approaching but projectiles help him with that. As mentioned, Uair works good on Link and is a fantastic gimp option for Pika so that is one thing that he has on us. I should mention though that this friends Pika is still very unrefined so I can't be sure of anything. I can update as his Pika improves and I play the MU more. I will probably be playing it a lot because I don't like using my Luigi against him. From what it would seem at present, I'd suspect the MU is 60/40 in Link's favor but no way to be sure right now. One fortunate thing is that I met Axe at apex and talked with him for a bit about Young Link and he promised me some friendlies. We never got the chance but he said we'll play if I see him at evo. I was going to do YLink dittos with him but apparently he used to play a lot of Link before he picked up YLink so I imagine he would have good insight about the Link/Pika MU. I will ask him about it when evo rolls around, provided I am able to go that is but I plan on going.

In reguards to Doc I can agree that Doc has great punishes. Back before I played competitively I played with a friend who mained Doc. Back then I played very predictable and he knew my strats pretty much spot on from playing me so much. I distinctly remember it being really hard to beat him because I would get punished hardcore. Pills were a hard edgeguard to deal with but that was before I knew what I was doing, I imagine that now I'd be able to sweetspot and avoid the pills but I don't play the MU these days because my Luigi takes care of his bro pretty nicely.
 
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RetroGamersGuru

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Ok, so far the general consensus is that the Pika MU is in our favor so far. Axe's opinion would be useful, but not everything from him will be set in stone necessarily. And so far it's looking like the Mario/Doc MU can be a pain if you're not careful or if you don't know the MU (but which MU doesn't give you trouble if you don't know it?) It makes sense considering how those two characters play. I'll update the sections soon.
 

Team Plasma N

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I'll try to see if I can find any Pika/Mario/Doc mains if I can and experiment with the matchups (it's rare though, most people just use the typical 8). For Doc I feel down-throw leads to some interesting combos, but I'm not sure if my Doc opponents just didn't properly DI or try counter attacking with a Nair like a Luigi would.

Alright, considering those MUs need more research, how about ICs? There should be a bit more info on them since they're seen a little more often. The only thing I can say about them is don't get grabbed.
 

RetroGamersGuru

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I'll try to see if I can find any Pika/Mario/Doc mains if I can and experiment with the matchups (it's rare though, most people just use the typical 8). For Doc I feel down-throw leads to some interesting combos, but I'm not sure if my Doc opponents just didn't properly DI or try counter attacking with a Nair like a Luigi would.

Alright, considering those MUs need more research, how about ICs? There should be a bit more info on them since they're seen a little more often. The only thing I can say about them is don't get grabbed.
Icies are used a little bit more often but not by much (at least in comparison to the other high tiers and top tiers, even Samus). I've played against against a friend who has Icies as his best character, and I know a little bit more about this MU now. Both characters in the MU are defensive: one zones, the other punishes. Icies are very mobile on the ground in comparison to the air, so expect them to mostly be on the ground (Wavedash for Days). However, they can still use the air for approaches and followups (horizontally that is), this is not Samus floatiness, so don't sleep on them by just going into the air. You are right that Icies really benefit off of grabs: they can do handoffs, wobbling, smash attack to regrab, throw to smash attack, throw to jab to regrab, etc. Fortuneately the range of most of Icies moves is smaller than other characters, which includes their grab range. So, the Icies have to get close to grab you. You have quick aerials to push them back with Nair and Bair (preferably Nair). Icies have a hard time against a zoning Link, so create a wall that you can mixup and keep them out. Also, projectiles separate the two well, so if you separate them far enough, you can choose to go for either one to combo or kill. Sometimes you will want to kill Nana, probably on the player's last stock in order to prevent wobbling, but you need to pay attention to Popo since he is the one that is completely controlled by the player. One way that Icies approach is with desync freeze, so mostly stay out of the range of that move. Otherwise you will get grabbed. Fair, Dair, Nair, Uair, Up B, Fsmash, Dsmash can kill well in this MU, but you will be using the aerial kill moves the most. Plus Up B is not as useful in this MU. While edgeguarding, Icies can recover low with Up B or high with Side B, so pay attention to their position offstage. I wouldn't follow them offstage that often unless you are following up on a projectile since they have the Fair meteor that they can try to use to punish you following them. Nair can knock them away well though, so after hitting close with a projectile, Nair is a good option that you can recover from. That is the case with both Icies. With Sopo however, it gets interesting. He can only recover with Side B since Up B just gimps himself, so edgeguarding becomes easy here. On stage, his approaches are the same as before, but it's his followups that change along with other options. He can't wobble, regrab in the same way, or throw to immediate smash attack. He can Dthrow to aerial followups (we Smash 4 now), his Uair doesn't send you that far away, so he can use it to lead to a smash attack depending on your DI. Freeze still leads to a grab with it's hit stun, so be careful. Same way to kill here.

Last thing, the ice projectile can throw you off if you don't pay attention to where it's positioned, so don't let them condition you. That is the Icies MU in how it goes IMO. So, if you get grabbed often, they will win. If not, you have the advantage in your tools to win the MU, so I say that this MU is in our favor.

Edit: Forgot to mention, you will see this in the Grab Punishes thread already, but you will not grab in this MU often. If anything you can grab Sopo for a combo or a kill, which is the extent that you want to go for grabs on an Ice Climber.
 
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Bravo_10

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I play IC's often enough because one of the better players in Georgia is a 'Climbers main. I think the key to this matchup is really just camping. Grayson, the IC main, hates playing against my Link because bombs put in a ton of work against them. Platform camping is pretty easy even though their up-air is pretty solid, and keeping a bomb in your hand at almost all times puts a timer on how long they can wobble you (which I think has been mentioned before). Link also has really solid tools to keep the climbers separated if he can get in between them. Jabbing, nairing, and d-smashing all can be used to apply separation pressure, but be careful with d-smash against these guys because Popo will likely get a grab punish off on you if he shields it (dat wavedash).

One thing I've always found underrated is just how good up-B is against a recovering Nana. Her jump is so predictable that if she needs to use it to get back to the stage, you can very easily semi-spike her to death. This isn't something I'd recommend in an even game so much because wherever Popo is, he'll probably be able to grab you off of the up-B lag. However if you think taking his punish is worth the Nana kill, go for it, or do it to increase your momentum if you're already up a stock (Jiggs players do a similar thing when they rest Nana with a stock lead).
 

RetroGamersGuru

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I think that covers most of the Icies MU as a whole, but feel free to add on to what has been said if we missed something. So far, we covered basically all of the high tiers and top tiers (except Jigglypuff) in at least some of the basics, which will need to be expanded on since some of the basics in the MUs could be missing. So now we can research on some more specific options and punishes to add on in addition to the rest of the basics needed to be added.

As for the other mid tiers and low tiers, feel free to add on or to ask for a specific one to research. I can help with most of the low tiers since I researched them in order to not suffer under MU inexperience (plus some of them are fun to use).
 

SAUS

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#2 in my region is ICs and currently has been beating me a bunch. I also played DizzKidBoogie at TCU (not sure on the spelling of his tag) and he was really good. From my experience, nair is awkward / dangerous to use. If you use it, go for a late nair. Fast nair will probably get you grabbed (aggressive wavedash forward). Getting grabbed often is not the problem, getting grabbed at all is the problem. They won't hesitate to wobble you and then you are dead. Even with Nana being hit away, DizzKidBoogie chain grabbed me with Popo (yes, they have a chaingrab with Sopo) until Nana got back and then wobbled me.

The matchup should be played almost exclusively on platforms during neutral. Throw things at them and abuse shield drop / up-b out of shield to punish their aerials. Watch out for tomahawk grabs. Literally throw things until Nana is forced to tech or you hit them with a bomb in the air. Nana will not tech, ever. Up-air is usually a good punish. Nana doesn't DI. It is often possible to have them both stuck in a juggle. Watch out for wavedash stuff (particularly down smash and grab).

Honestly, the most important thing to learn in this matchup, specifically, is how Nana behaves. No techs, no DI, always recovers with her jump in that same way. You can easily stuff her jump with a soft nair if you time it right. ICs don't really have a good edgeguard on Link, so you should be able to make it back fairly easily. Jumping backwards leaves your hookshot open for use as well. If Nana is in hit stun, she cannot up-b with Popo. Throw things at them if they are recovering together. In fact, you should pretty much always be throwing things at them. Up-b is really good if you read the Popo. They have to come after you to save Nana, so they will probably throw out an attack. If you up-b them as they approach, it stops them, and the up-b stays out long enough to probably also kill Nana. If they shield and get a punish, well you still got Nana most likely. It also lets you mix it up with just doing a safe move on Nana like nair since they are shielding. Being on a platform also minimises punishes. The moves you need to watch out for are pretty much just d-smash and grab. If you can up-b Nana while you are on a platform, Popo probably can't do much about it. You can CC a lot of his aerials and pretty much nothing will kill from there. This might change a bit if he is above you since then he can do fair d-smash. If he's below or just far away, the up-b is probably safe. No DI on your dair also makes Nana die pretty low.

Go for stages with platforms and some space. Pokemon stadium is probably our best stage in the matchup. FD is by far the worst. Then I'd go for bigger stages over smaller ones. Yoshi's before Fountain.
 

RetroGamersGuru

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#2 in my region is ICs and currently has been beating me a bunch. I also played DizzKidBoogie at TCU (not sure on the spelling of his tag) and he was really good. From my experience, nair is awkward / dangerous to use. If you use it, go for a late nair. Fast nair will probably get you grabbed (aggressive wavedash forward). Getting grabbed often is not the problem, getting grabbed at all is the problem. They won't hesitate to wobble you and then you are dead. Even with Nana being hit away, DizzKidBoogie chain grabbed me with Popo (yes, they have a chaingrab with Sopo) until Nana got back and then wobbled me.

The matchup should be played almost exclusively on platforms during neutral. Throw things at them and abuse shield drop / up-b out of shield to punish their aerials. Watch out for tomahawk grabs. Literally throw things until Nana is forced to tech or you hit them with a bomb in the air. Nana will not tech, ever. Up-air is usually a good punish. Nana doesn't DI. It is often possible to have them both stuck in a juggle. Watch out for wavedash stuff (particularly down smash and grab).

Honestly, the most important thing to learn in this matchup, specifically, is how Nana behaves. No techs, no DI, always recovers with her jump in that same way. You can easily stuff her jump with a soft nair if you time it right. ICs don't really have a good edgeguard on Link, so you should be able to make it back fairly easily. Jumping backwards leaves your hookshot open for use as well. If Nana is in hit stun, she cannot up-b with Popo. Throw things at them if they are recovering together. In fact, you should pretty much always be throwing things at them. Up-b is really good if you read the Popo. They have to come after you to save Nana, so they will probably throw out an attack. If you up-b them as they approach, it stops them, and the up-b stays out long enough to probably also kill Nana. If they shield and get a punish, well you still got Nana most likely. It also lets you mix it up with just doing a safe move on Nana like nair since they are shielding. Being on a platform also minimises punishes. The moves you need to watch out for are pretty much just d-smash and grab. If you can up-b Nana while you are on a platform, Popo probably can't do much about it. You can CC a lot of his aerials and pretty much nothing will kill from there. This might change a bit if he is above you since then he can do fair d-smash. If he's below or just far away, the up-b is probably safe. No DI on your dair also makes Nana die pretty low.

Go for stages with platforms and some space. Pokemon stadium is probably our best stage in the matchup. FD is by far the worst. Then I'd go for bigger stages over smaller ones. Yoshi's before Fountain.
Ok, that makes sense. Their Sopo chain grab probably will be useful for him even without Nana. In the case of your advice on platforms, you're saying to stay on the side platforms in the neutral most of the time. Nana is the equivalent to a level 3 CPU I've read, so her attack pattern will match basically a level 3 Ice Climber I'm assuming, so that's something to consider.
 

SAUS

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Ok, that makes sense. Their Sopo chain grab probably will be useful for him even without Nana. In the case of your advice on platforms, you're saying to stay on the side platforms in the neutral most of the time. Nana is the equivalent to a level 3 CPU I've read, so her attack pattern will match basically a level 3 Ice Climber I'm assuming, so that's something to consider.
I don't know the exact level, but she is really stupid lol. She also only acts on her own when she is separated and probably some other condition. Otherwise she will run back to Popo or be copying Popo. I must say, it does suck when you get hit by Nana lol. Like when you drop a punish because she does something crazy and hits you.

Just remember:
- Platforms
- Throw things
- Never go in unless they are in the air or your projectiles got you the knockdown
- When Nana / Popo have to tech, you can start getting lots of follow ups
- Watch out for wavedash grab, d-smash
- ICs are pretty bad in the air
- Nana never techs, never DIs, always recovers the same way
- Sopo is less deadly, but still threatens with the same moves as with Nana (grab / d-smash out of wavedash)
 

RetroGamersGuru

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I don't know the exact level, but she is really stupid lol. She also only acts on her own when she is separated and probably some other condition. Otherwise she will run back to Popo or be copying Popo. I must say, it does suck when you get hit by Nana lol. Like when you drop a punish because she does something crazy and hits you.

Just remember:
- Platforms
- Throw things
- Never go in unless they are in the air or your projectiles got you the knockdown
- When Nana / Popo have to tech, you can start getting lots of follow ups
- Watch out for wavedash grab, d-smash
- ICs are pretty bad in the air
- Nana never techs, never DIs, always recovers the same way
- Sopo is less deadly, but still threatens with the same moves as with Nana (grab / d-smash out of wavedash)
Ok, that sounds about right. If the MU has to be expanded even further then we will as time goes on. I'll continue to play against the Icies main to become more efficient and see if this strategy continually works or if it depends on the player or the situation. Plus playing against him also allows me to play against his Marth, Sheik, Falco, and Luigi, which are all pretty decent. He also has a G&W, so I could ask for him to use the character along with the others to experience the MU more and post what I find about the MU. Besides, he becomes surprised every time he fights my own low tiers Bowser, Zelda, Roy, and Kirby. Lol
 

RetroGamersGuru

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The Ice Climbers Section has been updated. I find it funny that one of the least used high tiers is one of our most researched MUs. Lol

We have a few things on most high tiers now (not everything of course, we have to keep researching and gaining experience), but we are still missing one high tier MU: Jigglypuff. Lol, the one MU that has always been considered in our favor by even the most disrespectful non-Link players. Of course the MU should be straight forward in theory, but we should post all that we do know just to be safe and to see if we actually need to do more research.
 

SAUS

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The Ice Climbers Section has been updated. I find it funny that one of the least used high tiers is one of our most researched MUs. Lol

We have a few things on most high tiers now (not everything of course, we have to keep researching and gaining experience), but we are still missing one high tier MU: Jigglypuff. Lol, the one MU that has always been considered in our favor by even the most disrespectful non-Link players. Of course the MU should be straight forward in theory, but we should post all that we do know just to be safe and to see if we actually need to do more research.
lol it's the #2 in my region, and I've been working on it a lot simply because I had nothing for the matchup previously.

Jiggs: I am not sure, but it feels sort of even or slight advantage for probably us. Crouch cancel is very important, imo. It is probably the main factor that makes Link not terrible at the matchup compared to young Link. Link's recovery is also quite nice in this matchup, at least in my experience. Jiggs doesn't seem to have a super solid way to consistently kill you unless you are forced to recover in one particular way due to being too far away. She's still better at edge guarding us that Peach or Falco, though.

Overall, take your time in this matchup. Jiggs doesn't have a very good way to get in on us if we don't give them an opening. Jiggs also dies at rather low damage, so the slow, steady damage increase from projectiles actually puts quite a bit of pressure on them. I think you should ultimately just not "go for the kill". Just keep protecting yourself and only go for follow-ups on projectiles or when the Jiggs is in a spot you can hit safely (right above you or coming down with an aerial that won't hit you). Don't use up-b or grab unless you really know it will hit. Dair is a good kill move, but keep in mind that up-air strong hit will kill at quite low damage and down smash can even kill at reasonable damage. Nairing Jiggs off stage and spamming projectiles for damage is much more valuable in this matchup since the damage will lead you to kills very quickly. You also can't really hope to get a killing edge guard on Jiggs unless they mess up really badly.

Vertical movement is a nice way to get around Jiggs. Just don't get caught without your jump. With this in mind, I think FD is our worst stage for the matchup. Jumping over Jiggs and throwing a bomb down is usually quite good (especially when they're in the air). Keeping out of Jiggs' zones will make it really annoying for your opponent. Crouch cancel if you think you've messed up. There's not much they can do about it, and it will help protect you against low damage rest setups and early deaths.

Also as a general rule for this matchup, please look at Jigglypuff's frame data. The hitboxes on her up-air and bair are actually stupid.
 

RetroGamersGuru

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lol it's the #2 in my region, and I've been working on it a lot simply because I had nothing for the matchup previously.

Jiggs: I am not sure, but it feels sort of even or slight advantage for probably us. Crouch cancel is very important, imo. It is probably the main factor that makes Link not terrible at the matchup compared to young Link. Link's recovery is also quite nice in this matchup, at least in my experience. Jiggs doesn't seem to have a super solid way to consistently kill you unless you are forced to recover in one particular way due to being too far away. She's still better at edge guarding us that Peach or Falco, though.

Overall, take your time in this matchup. Jiggs doesn't have a very good way to get in on us if we don't give them an opening. Jiggs also dies at rather low damage, so the slow, steady damage increase from projectiles actually puts quite a bit of pressure on them. I think you should ultimately just not "go for the kill". Just keep protecting yourself and only go for follow-ups on projectiles or when the Jiggs is in a spot you can hit safely (right above you or coming down with an aerial that won't hit you). Don't use up-b or grab unless you really know it will hit. Dair is a good kill move, but keep in mind that up-air strong hit will kill at quite low damage and down smash can even kill at reasonable damage. Nairing Jiggs off stage and spamming projectiles for damage is much more valuable in this matchup since the damage will lead you to kills very quickly. You also can't really hope to get a killing edge guard on Jiggs unless they mess up really badly.

Vertical movement is a nice way to get around Jiggs. Just don't get caught without your jump. With this in mind, I think FD is our worst stage for the matchup. Jumping over Jiggs and throwing a bomb down is usually quite good (especially when they're in the air). Keeping out of Jiggs' zones will make it really annoying for your opponent. Crouch cancel if you think you've messed up. There's not much they can do about it, and it will help protect you against low damage rest setups and early deaths.

Also as a general rule for this matchup, please look at Jigglypuff's frame data. The hitboxes on her up-air and bair are actually stupid.
Yeah, they're ridiculous (The third best hitbox of hers is Dtilt, or so it appeared to me. I don't know where they would use that though). Although the ironic thing is that the other hitboxes usually have their ends line up to the ends of her body (Ness tier).

That's how I thought the MU goes. YL does the same thing, so it wouldn't be unreasonable to think of something similar here. Puff's biggest problem it seems is that she gets sent away very easily due to being the lightest character. She's the character of extremes. That's the extent of what I know of the MU. There's only one Puff player in my area, and he is not even interested in competitive Melee (based on the fact that he doesn't think that he could be good). Plus he has too much fun using rollout and offstage rests (9/10 doesn't hit, that hitbox though), if only he was interested in learning more since he gets angry for being punished for it.
 

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Serious: The Jigglypuff section has been updated with what has been said so far. Since I've been analyzing some Kirby matches (or watching, which ever works) and I have a Kirby in order to understand how he plays, I'll make a post on the Kirby Link MU later since I feel more confident in posting my thoughts and analysis on it in comparison to Puff (I really wish there was a good Puff player here, and lol, I'm more confident in a low tier MU than a high tier one). Other low tier MUs that I'll post about later are Zelda, Roy, and G&W (when I learn more from playing my friend's G&W). In terms of tournament threat characters, we probably should get started on talking about some of the mid tiers as well. We've discussed some Pika, some Doc/Mario, some Luigi, and I've posted about Ganondorf a while back (the info was added into the Dorf MU section as well). We still need some basics on the following mid-tier MUs: Samus, Yoshi, Young Link, and Link (lol). A couple of them will probably be easy to discuss, but I'm concerned about the Yoshi MU. You can't say that he's not a threat when aMSa got fifth at Apex and is continuing to place well in his own region unlike previously. It's not just aMSa either, other Yoshi players are improving as well, and more Yoshi players are starting to come in (at least more than previously). I technically could compare the Yoshi MU to the 64 Yoshi MU since much Yoshi tech transfers, but I'm not going to since there are many variables to take into account here with Yoshi in Melee.

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Non-serious: Egast dood, it's April Foo's Day in two hours! Edit: Shaqboards ruined my use of my April Fools Joke and Avater. I'll just try again next year.
 
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Team Plasma N

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It's been a while since we've had a discussion. Guess I'll just ask about the Samus matchup. Thoughts on dealing with an offensive Samus?
 

RetroGamersGuru

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The Samus matchup is definitely winnable (probably in our favor), and Samus shouldn't be playing all that aggressive. Otherwise, the Samus can get punished with our projectiles. If anything, Link will be the aggressor. I think that Nair goes through her missiles, and she doesn't have a similar answer to our own projectiles. Samus is a floaty, ground-based character, so you need to get her in the air with a bomb, boomerang, grab, aerial, Utilt, etc. and then keep her there. She doesn't have very safe landing, and she has a hard time falling back down. She can try to use bombs to mix things up, but your projectiles and aerials go through them plus Samus needs two in order to bomb jump. When starting a combo, you can start the usual Uthrow Uair very early due to her floatiness, so I wouldn't recommend using Utilt after Uthrow in this MU even at earlier percents (maybe you can do it when she is at 0, but that's as far as I would go). She is semi-heavy though, so be ready to keep her in the air for a while. The drawback of starting the Uthrow Uair combo early is that the combo stops being guaranteed at lower percent numbers than the usual MUs, so once you are unable to do the Uair string/combo, you should start using your projectiles to help you keep her in the air. Don't rely on them since you can still use aerials even in the mentioned situation. This is how I think in this MU.
 

Thor

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The Samus matchup is definitely winnable (probably in our favor), and Samus shouldn't be playing all that aggressive. Otherwise, the Samus can get punished with our projectiles. If anything, Link will be the aggressor. I think that Nair goes through her missiles, and she doesn't have a similar answer to our own projectiles. Samus is a floaty, ground-based character, so you need to get her in the air with a bomb, boomerang, grab, aerial, Utilt, etc. and then keep her there. She doesn't have very safe landing, and she has a hard time falling back down. She can try to use bombs to mix things up, but your projectiles and aerials go through them plus Samus needs two in order to bomb jump. When starting a combo, you can start the usual Uthrow Uair very early due to her floatiness, so I wouldn't recommend using Utilt after Uthrow in this MU even at earlier percents (maybe you can do it when she is at 0, but that's as far as I would go). She is semi-heavy though, so be ready to keep her in the air for a while. The drawback of starting the Uthrow Uair combo early is that the combo stops being guaranteed at lower percent numbers than the usual MUs, so once you are unable to do the Uair string/combo, you should start using your projectiles to help you keep her in the air. Don't rely on them since you can still use aerials even in the mentioned situation. This is how I think in this MU.
Actually, we outcamp Samus... if Samus isn't going in, she should be losing. Powershielding stuff from both sides can happen, and she can catch bombs, but she has to actually catch or shield them. If she's shooting missles, we can SHFFL any of nair, fair, or even uair to clank them out, or we can jab, and I've even seen moments when someone jumps over the missile and dairs it. We can also block super and sometimes homing missiles by just standing still [duck or walk forward occasionally to make sure you don't get that annoying idling animation that makes our shield not work].

Link's jab pressure on Samus [jab, jab, or jab jab, jab, jab] where you potentially do another move [dsmash, fair, nair, grab] but also could just keep jabbing, if spaced, is insane, because Samus lacks a proper answer. Grab is way too slow, I don't THINK nair reaches [she'd have to move closer], fair might reach but CC that, and up+B definitely doesn't reach, meaning her best option is to roll away [since you should just about be able to react to cross-up roll with spin attack]. Our fair/nair/bair are safe enough on shield that she can't hit us with up+B OoS if we buffer shield as we land, so if you cross her up she can't do much [slow bair], and if you land in front of her and are trying to, you can spotdodge her grab on reaction, then punish with fsmash, grab, spin attack, or dair.

Our projectiles can be surprisingly effective at racking damage while she's recovering offstage, though to gimp her we almost certainly need to hit her with bomb or rang while she's firing the tether, since nothing except arrows will knock her downwards, and arrows are hardish to land. You could attempt to use nair occasionally, but if you miss, she's probably on the ledge or onstage and you have to recover - that's a good look vs precisely zero characters in this game.

Dthrow, while good in almost every single MU, seems bad in this one. I know I'm not perfect at it, so it may very well be me, but it seems like dthrow is negative on hit, or at least the difference in actionability after the throw between Link and Samus is such that our only safe option is shielding(@ SAUS SAUS if that person perhapsman or whatever would be willing to help test that, it would be great to see if I just need to really grind out that dthrow -> X punish, or if I'm right to not dthrow). Uthrow, however, is good, since she has bad air speed and we have an amazing uair [and nair].

All her aerials are fairly safe on shield, but she can really only follow them up on the ground with dsmash [punishable] or jab stuff [which you can almost always safely roll away from if she doesn't have charge shot, though of course not always rolling away is a good idea because you don't want to be predictable]. If your timing is perfect, you can spin attack out of jab1 pressure, unless that happens to be the exact time she goes for jab2, at which point you take like 6% and minimal knockback [not enough to KO until well past 200% if memory serves].

Samus is really heavy, so KOing with uair and dair is much easier than other aerials. Fsmash can also help somewhat [the second hit has a nice angle that will help KO her off the top], but fair won't KO until after 150% in this MU unless right by the ledge.

I can write more up if people want later. I did a huge write-up on this MU on the Samus boards a while back as well [it was longer than this though].
 
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Team Plasma N

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More information is always good. And yeah, the Samus' that I played went aggressive on me, dash attacking behind their missles and abusing super wavedash and stuff. I just felt overwhelmed. On the more projectile spam Samus' that I fought I didn't feel as overwhelmed.

I'm actually going to ask about this.... but the DK matchup.... This is the second DK that I got murdered by in Melee (yet I somehow won in PM) and the second I ever fought in Melee. Cargo up throw uair chain got to me, it was on Battlefield (didn't know he was gonna go DK on me). I figured that we should have the advantage since we have projectiles and DK has a huge hurtbox, though I just talked to someone who plays Y. Link and apparently it's a 50/50 matchup according to him. Not even his Fox felt as hard as the DK... Idk, maybe I just suck.
 
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RetroGamersGuru

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More information is always good. And yeah, the Samus' that I played went aggressive on me, dash attacking behind their missles and abusing super wavedash and stuff. I just felt overwhelmed. On the more projectile spam Samus' that I fought I didn't feel as overwhelmed.

I'm actually going to ask about this.... but the DK matchup.... This is the second DK that I got murdered by in Melee (yet I somehow won in PM) and the second I ever fought in Melee. Cargo up throw uair chain got to me, it was on Battlefield (didn't know he was gonna go DK on me). I figured that we should have the advantage since we have projectiles and DK has a huge hurtbox, though I just talked to someone who plays Y. Link and apparently it's a 50/50 matchup according to him. Not even his Fox felt as hard as the DK... Idk, maybe I just suck.
Y. Link works basically off of only camping though. In this regard, this is why it leads an even MU for him against DK.

Now with the DK v. Link MU, you obviously don't want to get grabbed for the sake of the Uair chain, but it's easier to tell what the DK is going to do based on direction he's facing. Back towards you? Bair. Facing you? Grab. Aside from this, his other moves are slower and situational, which are punishable. Also, yes, our projectiles are very useful in this MU since they do keep him out for a while. However, you can't just rely on camping him out since he can get through them eventually. We combo DK to death due to his fall speed, and the combos on him are basically the same against other characters, but it's easier here due to the larger hitbox. Our disjointed attacks do out range him for the most part (I still have to look at the DK Bair's hitboxes), and our projectiles can start a heavy punish as well. Another note to keep in mind, DK can only really edgeguard with Bair and Fair (Fair is more optimal), but we can edgeguard DK in many more ways. Projectiles, Nair, Bair, Fair, and of course the edge hog. DK's recovery isn't all that good, so the edge hog should be easier to setup than other characters. So the MU is straightforward from here. Keep him out for a while with projectiles, if the opportunity comes take a grab and punish, and gimp him. That is what I go for in this MU.
 

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Update: The Samus and DK sections have been updated. I looked a little bit more into the Samus MU, and what Thor is saying is true. My original position on the MU was probably due to the Samus players in my area, which I don't lose to as Link. So I probably need to face more experienced Samus players. But I am sure of what I had to say about the DK MU though.
 

Team Plasma N

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SAUS

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Y. Link works basically off of only camping though. In this regard, this is why it leads an even MU for him against DK.

Now with the DK v. Link MU, you obviously don't want to get grabbed for the sake of the Uair chain, but it's easier to tell what the DK is going to do based on direction he's facing. Back towards you? Bair. Facing you? Grab. Aside from this, his other moves are slower and situational, which are punishable. Also, yes, our projectiles are very useful in this MU since they do keep him out for a while. However, you can't just rely on camping him out since he can get through them eventually. We combo DK to death due to his fall speed, and the combos on him are basically the same against other characters, but it's easier here due to the larger hitbox. Our disjointed attacks do out range him for the most part (I still have to look at the DK Bair's hitboxes), and our projectiles can start a heavy punish as well. Another note to keep in mind, DK can only really edgeguard with Bair and Fair (Fair is more optimal), but we can edgeguard DK in many more ways. Projectiles, Nair, Bair, Fair, and of course the edge hog. DK's recovery isn't all that good, so the edge hog should be easier to setup than other characters. So the MU is straightforward from here. Keep him out for a while with projectiles, if the opportunity comes take a grab and punish, and gimp him. That is what I go for in this MU.
I played against a strong DK from Montreal (used to go by PKM Vodka). He doesn't main DK anymore, but his DK is still really good. I found that he could edge guard me almost 100% of the time with his up-b strong hit. He just needed to be in the right spot so that he would still make it back to the edge and it is basically guaranteed kill. I think you have to up-b recover more in the matchup, but I'm not sure. I only played him in like 2 games or something (against his DK) and there is no other DK that I've played against that is nearly as good.

I find you have to also be wary of his grab range. He's so big that spacing around him is actually awkward. He also moves sort of fast (compared to Link at least, lol), so he is still threatening.
 

SAUS

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Actually, we outcamp Samus... if Samus isn't going in, she should be losing. Powershielding stuff from both sides can happen, and she can catch bombs, but she has to actually catch or shield them. If she's shooting missles, we can SHFFL any of nair, fair, or even uair to clank them out, or we can jab, and I've even seen moments when someone jumps over the missile and dairs it. We can also block super and sometimes homing missiles by just standing still [duck or walk forward occasionally to make sure you don't get that annoying idling animation that makes our shield not work].

Link's jab pressure on Samus [jab, jab, or jab jab, jab, jab] where you potentially do another move [dsmash, fair, nair, grab] but also could just keep jabbing, if spaced, is insane, because Samus lacks a proper answer. Grab is way too slow, I don't THINK nair reaches [she'd have to move closer], fair might reach but CC that, and up+B definitely doesn't reach, meaning her best option is to roll away [since you should just about be able to react to cross-up roll with spin attack]. Our fair/nair/bair are safe enough on shield that she can't hit us with up+B OoS if we buffer shield as we land, so if you cross her up she can't do much [slow bair], and if you land in front of her and are trying to, you can spotdodge her grab on reaction, then punish with fsmash, grab, spin attack, or dair.

Our projectiles can be surprisingly effective at racking damage while she's recovering offstage, though to gimp her we almost certainly need to hit her with bomb or rang while she's firing the tether, since nothing except arrows will knock her downwards, and arrows are hardish to land. You could attempt to use nair occasionally, but if you miss, she's probably on the ledge or onstage and you have to recover - that's a good look vs precisely zero characters in this game.

Dthrow, while good in almost every single MU, seems bad in this one. I know I'm not perfect at it, so it may very well be me, but it seems like dthrow is negative on hit, or at least the difference in actionability after the throw between Link and Samus is such that our only safe option is shielding(@ SAUS SAUS if that person perhapsman or whatever would be willing to help test that, it would be great to see if I just need to really grind out that dthrow -> X punish, or if I'm right to not dthrow). Uthrow, however, is good, since she has bad air speed and we have an amazing uair [and nair].

All her aerials are fairly safe on shield, but she can really only follow them up on the ground with dsmash [punishable] or jab stuff [which you can almost always safely roll away from if she doesn't have charge shot, though of course not always rolling away is a good idea because you don't want to be predictable]. If your timing is perfect, you can spin attack out of jab1 pressure, unless that happens to be the exact time she goes for jab2, at which point you take like 6% and minimal knockback [not enough to KO until well past 200% if memory serves].

Samus is really heavy, so KOing with uair and dair is much easier than other aerials. Fsmash can also help somewhat [the second hit has a nice angle that will help KO her off the top], but fair won't KO until after 150% in this MU unless right by the ledge.

I can write more up if people want later. I did a huge write-up on this MU on the Samus boards a while back as well [it was longer than this though].
I can ask him about it, but I think you do have to just shield and wait after down throw (until high damage, not sure when, but d-throw up-air at 150+ is guaranteed on pretty much every character). At low and mid damage, I just use up-throw and wait.
 

RetroGamersGuru

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Look up Taj's Link vs Axe's Pika for that answer haha
I'm not going really take his actions for truth considering he mains Marth and Mewtwo and not Link. Although the though of him using Link without experience with him against Axe's Pikachu is hilarious.

Edit: Also, the only match that I could find with Taj's Link fighting Axe's Pika was with Taj playing both Link and Samus, and Taj won the Pika MU with Link unlike Samus. Despite Taj's inputs being a tad slower than I'm used to seeing from other players, Axe had to just keep dodging until he could abuse Taj being a slightly slower player and approach, so we have something going for us in the Pika MU even still. Yes, Pika is great at juggles and gimping, but we do a similar job with different tools. So it really isn't that bad.
 
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RetroGamersGuru

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I went ahead and took a look. I figured that Pikachu could gimp and combo us. The thing is that HDL did make some good choices for certain situations, but he committed to some options that punished him hard. It looks like we shouldn't always look for grabs unless we know that we can get the grab, otherwise we can get punished with a combo or a gimp depending on the situation. I do think that we shouldn't completely camp or zone, but I also think that HDL was a little bit too aggressive in the MU. Plus he played much of his matches close to the edge against a gimping character that is powerful enough to gimp us. I'm not saying go for chip damage since that doesn't work for us, we aren't Samus mains. I'm saying that this MU appears to be a patient punishing MU. We probably need to keep control of center stage in this MU or take advantage of platforms if applicable. Projectiles are necessary for this MU to provide us punishes and sometimes to keep Pika at bay. HDL has much space that he could use to pull out the bomb or set up a boomerang for himself, but it seemed like he waited like a Marth would instead. Also, the use of aerials, Fair is good at what it's designed for, knocking back the opponent or killing. Dair seems good to punish the landing lag of Pika's Up B onto the stage as well as sometimes being a followup to Utilt (Uair would've been good as well). Bair and Nair do what they usually do in this MU. HDL didn't use Uair much, and I feel he missed a few opportunities with it other than when Pika was directly above. HDL came off almost purely horizontal in his punishes (yes I know that's what most characters do anyways, but there still are opportunities vertically). This could've led to Axe dissecting his playstyle and punishing from above (but the match is very old, so I doubt that the players would remember their mindset during the match). HDL's recovery was good, but Pika still can reach us very well. It also looked like, out of the played stages, FD and PS were the better choices, but HDL didn't use the platforms at maximum capability as well (but it's understandable since this was a few years back). Knowing more optimal techniques of today, he could've used shield dropping sometimes to escape pressure and counterattacked with Uair (I also was thinking, if the meta develops enough, to condition the opponent with you using shield drop Uair in order to make the, consider following you to punish you and then faking them out to do so then get a punish of your own).

This is what I could get from this match. Aside from the fact that HDL switched to Marth since then (considering what he does I consider it an ok choice since his playstyle IMO didn't completely match with Link), this match is a few years old, and Link wasn't at his best here (thank goodness), he could've been more optimal in numerous situations, and he should've mixed things up a little bit. So, based on the given information, I still think that the MU is a doable one, it's just not as easy mode as we've been thinking (at least if the Pika is Axe's level).
 

Team Plasma N

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Well I fought a Pika main again today and from the looks of it, Battlefield and Yoshi's (maybe FoD too) seem to benefit Pika. When the Pika got me on a platform, he would tech chase me with a Uair trying to land the tail spike. Luckily he wasn't successful, but had I probably been at a higher percent or if it hit right I probably would have been spiked easily. So FD and PS should probably be our stages to take them to, just watch out for their neutral b edgeguard. As Retro said, avoid the edge of the stage. Pikas love back throw to turn Uair to get that gimp, so center stage is ideal.
 

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Well I fought a Pika main again today and from the looks of it, Battlefield and Yoshi's (maybe FoD too) seem to benefit Pika. When the Pika got me on a platform, he would tech chase me with a Uair trying to land the tail spike. Luckily he wasn't successful, but had I probably been at a higher percent or if it hit right I probably would have been spiked easily. So FD and PS should probably be our stages to take them to, just watch out for their neutral b edgeguard. As Retro said, avoid the edge of the stage. Pikas love back throw to turn Uair to get that gimp, so center stage is ideal.
Yeah, I'm thinking that, until we better optimize platforms like we should (I really need to get used to shield dropping), we basically have to use those two stages, FD and PS. Also yes, if Yoshi's and BF don't help, FoD (a smaller stage) isn't going to help either. Maybe Dreamland can help too since FD, PS, and DL all are large stages that can make it easier to keep control of center stage.
 

RetroGamersGuru

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So sad that HDL is mostly a Marth now. Well, I guess we still have J666 and Internet Explorer ...
Yeah, but I think HDL's playstyle fits Marth better than Link since he focused more on spaced aerials instead. J666's playstyle works out better than IE's in the MUs, at least it appears that way (chip damage can work in certain MUs).

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We're starting to go off track. So we have some basics on all the high tiers and top tiers (although the job isn't done yet). Now with mid tiers, we have some information on the following: Pikachu, Samus, Mario, Dr. Mario, Luigi, and Ganondorf (in other words the conventionally accepted mid-tiers). Although information on what to do with grabs would be nice along with expanding our knowledge of neutral game, punishes, and setups in each MU, which probably requires all of us to experience the MUs. We still need to talk about the MUs with Yoshi and both Links in basically all aspects. The low-tiers can be expanded upon as we go (at least the low-tiers that are set in stone).

@ SAUS SAUS , can you please take a look at what Link can do with grabs on the mid-tiers to make sure of what we're already thinking? (This can help bring more activity to the grab punishes thread). And does playing against @PerhapsMan give you enough confidence to talk about the Yoshi MU?
 

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Does Link really have any answers to traditional space animal shield pressure? His jump is so slow that wavedash out of shield and nair out of shield don't seem particularly good.
 
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