Social Link checked the thread. Wow! This is a nice thread!

[Zane the pure]

There was a match I played against Denti's Sheik on battlefield I wish that I had saved, as it was basically a full demonstration of every type of recovery option Link has, between recovering low, recovering high over ledge-guard attempts, going super deep with bomb jump recoveries, quick Z-edge getups, hanging from Z-air to avoid getup option selects.

I'll try and get in some more rounds with him soon, since that match was the epitome of Sasook's guide to recovering back in Brawl.

 

[Rizen]

IMO shorter bomb fuses are a double edged blade but I prefer Brawl's fuses. Holding a bomb longer means less lag from pulling them while Link has his trump card ready.

Oooooooo. I get it now. I didn't know Camalange change avatars so often.

I hadn't noticed either; it all blends together.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

IMO shorter bomb fuses are a double edged blade but I prefer Brawl's fuses. Holding a bomb longer means less lag from pulling them while Link has his trump card ready.

I hadn't noticed either; it all blends together.

Shorter fuse also makes soft throw bombs that much better as people are less likely to get anything out of picking them up. It also makes it that much scarier when a Bomb hits their shield because people will be less likely to want to catch it with an aerial or drop shield. And it's not like they're too short or anything. I get that they are amazing as a trump card in terms of beating out other moves or used OoS or by jumping over an attack and then bombing it etc etc, but imo they can still be used in this way as the fuse isn't too short. I think the length of the fuse is perfect.

 

[The Merc]

IMO shorter bomb fuses are a double edged blade but I prefer Brawl's fuses. Holding a bomb longer means less lag from pulling them while Link has his trump card ready.

I hadn't noticed either; it all blends together.

Personally, I prefer the longer fuse.

Yeah, you never notice avatar changes unless they are significant, ie different characters.

 

[Rizen]

Shorter fuse also makes soft throw bombs that much better as people are less likely to get anything out of picking them up. It also makes it that much scarier when a Bomb hits their shield because people will be less likely to want to catch it with an aerial or drop shield. And it's not like they're too short or anything. I get that they are amazing as a trump card in terms of beating out other moves or used OoS or by jumping over an attack and then bombing it etc etc, but imo they can still be used in this way as the fuse isn't too short. I think the length of the fuse is perfect.

The fuses aren't too shot (unlike meteor bombs) but I do prefer Brawl's timers. Having bombs in play longer without the lag of pulling them, which was something like 40 frames iirc, was a nice thing. I feel like Brawl's bombs had better stage control because I could easily get 2 out at once. Having 2 out in SSB4 is harder imo. Plus holding a bomb is saying "I have a frame 6 (iirc) projectile that has a transcendent explosion which beats every move without super armor or invulnerability so before you approach ask yourself a question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well do ya, punks?"

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

But there's less that you can do while holding a Bomb in smash 4 anyway. You can't throw out Zairs all day to bait people into approaching while you're holding a Bomb (because airdodge lag (I had to say it otherwise some idiot would be like, "um, actually you can use Zair while holding a Bomb, so")), and while it's a minor point, using aerials while holding a Bomb has been made more difficult too. So I don't get why you'd want to hold onto the Bomb in smash 4 for that much longer anyway even if you could when you can just soft throw it or something. And can you really look past having a guaranteed second Up-B for recovering if you need it? For the purposes of smash 4, a shorter fuse is definitely better.

Edit: I will agree that the fuse on the meteor bombs is disruptively short, so it's not like I don't appreciate the fact that being able to hold onto the Bomb for a bit isn't super useful, but the normal fuse is short enough now that it legitimises the other uses too.

 

[Naroghin]

I prefer the short fuses. I just wish they'd get rid of the bomb cap like the good ol' SSB64 days.

 

[Zane the pure]

I feel the shorter fuses wouldn't be half the issue to Link's options chad he still the ability to Z-drop them without Z-air.
Not having that and losing TC really hurt some of Link's runaway potential with setups and combos. Since the bombs are less prone to blowing up when hitting the ground via soft toss or z-dropped from a short height, Link's stage control would be excellent using ZAC aerials to cover the space in front of him.

I feel like Link needs more tech honestly, cuz I'm feeling a little bare without all my gimmicky little options from Brawl.

 

[Rizen]

But there's less that you can do while holding a Bomb in smash 4 anyway. You can't throw out Zairs all day to bait people into approaching while you're holding a Bomb (because airdodge lag (I had to say it otherwise some idiot would be like, "um, actually you can use Zair while holding a Bomb, so")), and while it's a minor point, using aerials while holding a Bomb has been made more difficult too. So I don't get why you'd want to hold onto the Bomb in smash 4 for that much longer anyway even if you could when you can just soft throw it or something. And can you really look past having a guaranteed second Up-B for recovering if you need it? For the purposes of smash 4, a shorter fuse is definitely better.

Edit: I will agree that the fuse on the meteor bombs is disruptively short, so it's not like I don't appreciate the fact that being able to hold onto the Bomb for a bit isn't super useful, but the normal fuse is short enough now that it legitimises the other uses too.

Link's recovery is better in SSB4 anyway. Most times when I die it's from a strong launch and the times I do fall to my death are usually wifail. I still prefer the longer fuse for getting multiple bombs out, throwing one upward, holding while spamming, etc. I think the fuse is a matter of preference, except when it's too short.
This video has good examples of why I like Brawl's longer fuses better, although the shorter SSB4 fuses have some advantages too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ar8Pe0Wcihk


The stupid cat I'm watching is so needy. She misses my mom, who's in the hospital, and she constantly wants pets and is talking. It's been really hard to play MP2 with her always on my lap. I'll be so glad when my mom's back. I'm worn out.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Link's recovery is better in SSB4 anyway. Most times when I die it's from a strong launch and the times I do fall to my death are usually wifail. I still prefer the longer fuse for getting multiple bombs out, throwing one upward, holding while spamming, etc. I think the fuse is a matter of preference, except when it's too short.
This video has good examples of why I like Brawl's longer fuses better, although the shorter SSB4 fuses have some advantages too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ar8Pe0Wcihk

Almost every Bomb used in that video could have been used in the exact the same way and would have had the exact same results if you used the the shorter fuse from smash 4. I even went to the trouble of pulling a Bomb in smash 4 at the exact time that you did in the vid and waited to see if it exploded any earlier, and in the rare cases that it did, I explain what would have happened instead. The following is really really long so I'll put it inside a quote, but basically out of every single bomb pull in that game, only one was an example where the longer fuse was necessary, and even that wasn't a very big deal as it wouldn't have affected anything. Maybe you're just psyching yourself out. If you play the same way you did in that vid using the smash 4 bombs, you won't notice any difference (unless there's some other factor I'm unaware of).

Bomb pull @ 11 seconds: Smash 4 Bomb explodes after you throw but just before it would have exploded on the ground, but you'd be fine. No difference.
Bomb pull @ 19 seconds- Smash 4 Bomb explodes after vid Bomb does. There would have been no difference.
Bomb pull @ 24- 4Bomb explodes same time. There would have been no difference.
@ 31- explodes after. No difference.
@ 35- No difference.
@ 49- No difference.
@ 54- No difference.
@ 57- No difference.
@ 1:06- No difference.
@ 1:12- No difference.
@ 1:13- No difference.
@ 1:21- No difference.
@ 1:23- No difference.
@ 1:25- No difference.
@ 1:33- No difference.
@ 1:37- No difference.
@ 1:39- No difference.
@ 1:47- No difference.
@ 1:50- No difference.
@ 1:52- No difference.
@ 1:55- No difference.
@ 1:57- No difference.
@ 1:58- It would have exploded on Meta Knight because he caught it. Smash 4 Bomb fuse would have been better.
@ 2:00- Smash 4 Bomb would have exploded just before you threw it, but arguably you should have throw in earlier anyway, and this is not an example of the kind that you had in mind by showing this vid. Besides, if it weren't for the fact that you had to waste time by shielding the blast from the previous Bomb which wouldn't have bothered you if it were a smash 4 bomb fuse, you would have been able to do the same thing anyway only faster, so arguably the shorter fuse would have served you better.
@ 2:06- No difference.
@ 2:10- It would have exploded sooner. Either way it would have been useful to aid your recovery. No difference.
@ 2:23- No difference.
@ 2:29- No difference.
@ 2:31- No difference.
@ 2:42- No difference.
@ 2:45- No difference.
@ 2:47- No difference.
@ 2:49- No difference.
@ 2:52- It would have exploded the moment MK tried to catch it with Nair. Smash 4 fuse is better.
@ 2:56- No difference.
@ 3:01- No difference.
@ 3:11- No difference.
@ 3:18- No difference.
@ 3:19- No difference.
@ 3:24- No difference.
@ 3:26- It would have exploded before you threw it, but then, what were you doing anyway? You should have thrown the Bomb well before you did, therefore, no difference, unless you think of the smash 4 bomb fuse as forcing you to throw the Bomb sooner, in which case it would have served you better.
@ 3:38- No difference.
@ 3:40- No difference.
@ 3:46- No difference.
@ 3:48- No difference.
@ 3:51- No difference.
@ 3:56- No difference.
@ 3:58- No difference.
@ 4:01- No difference.
@ 4:03- No difference.
@ 4:04- No difference.
@ 4:08 to 4:16 No difference.
@ 4:17- Finally we have a Bomb that would have exploded before it touched the ground. We have one example, and not even a very convincing one tbh.
@ 4:22- No difference.
@ 4:24- No difference.
@ 4:28- No difference.
@ 4:32- No difference.
@ 4:34- No difference.
@ 4:36- No difference.
@ 4:39- No difference.
@ 4:42- No difference.
@ 4:44- No difference.
@ 4:45- No difference.
@ 4:47- No difference.
@ 4:57- No difference.
@ 4:59- No difference.
@ 5:01- No difference.
@ 5:06- No difference.
@ 5:22- No difference.
@ 5:23- No difference.
@ 5:33- No difference.
@ 5:36- No difference.
@ 5:40- No difference.
@ 5:44- No difference.
@ 5:48- No difference.
@ 5:59- No difference.
@ 6:04- No difference.
@ 6:12- No difference.
@ 6:20- It would have exploded while in the air just before it touched the ground and if anything this would have been better as the explosion would have been closer to MK.
@ 6:25- No difference.
@ 6:30- No difference.
@ 6:33- No difference.
@ 6:40- No difference.
@ 6:42- No difference.
@ 6:57- No difference.
@ 7:05- No difference.
@ 7:21- No difference.
@ 7:32- No difference.
@ 8:02- No difference.

Incidentally, you may want to look at the above data to give you an idea of how much you bomb pull, specifically, you started to bomb pull way less towards the end there which was weird and ultimately cost you the game imo.

 

[Rizen]

(EZ Link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ar8Pe0Wcihk )

Almost every Bomb used in that video could have been used in the exact the same way and would have had the exact same results if you used the the shorter fuse from smash 4. I even went to the trouble of pulling a Bomb in smash 4 at the exact time that you did in the vid and waited to see if it exploded any earlier, and in the rare cases that it did, I explain what would have happened instead. The following is really really long so I'll put it inside a quote, but basically out of every single bomb pull in that game, only one was an example where the longer fuse was necessary, and even that wasn't a very big deal as it wouldn't have affected anything. Maybe you're just psyching yourself out. If you play the same way you did in that vid using the smash 4 bombs, you won't notice any difference (unless there's some other factor I'm unaware of).

That's not the point though. I was able to throw the bombs at the best time, not because I had to. There's a lot more leeway for stalling and mindgames.
At 2:03 that bomb completely deterred MK's nado forcing him to retreat so I regained stage control. Same thing at 3:28; he couldn't attack me while I held the bomb.
Or like the bomb+boomerang/arrow stage control shenanigans at 2:45-2:57; I could safely fire that arrow because I held a bomb but it could have gone any number of ways.
Throwing ASAP often isn't the best considering how long it takes to pull bombs. Think of Peach's floating backwards stalling or ROB's air stalling; sure Peach could Fair at any time, even right away, but it's more effective that she can choose when. When I was moving around MK was afraid to approach me offstage like at 2:11-2:16, I went for an invincible getup attack which failed but even though MK had Link offstage I still drifted closer and recovered with the perfect amount time.
Or at 4:17 MK couldn't approach because I was holding a bomb and could safely spam my boomerang. I could have thrown it sooner or held it longer and spammed in a different way. If the bomb had a 4 second timer I would have been forced to throw/shield/dodge it in 4 seconds. MK didn't start to approach until 4:25. Each bomb I pull with Brawl's fuses takes 40 frames but gives me 7 seconds to keep MK (or anyone) off balance. SSB4's fuses only give 4 seconds.
Also I was able to safely get rid of several bombs earlier than I could have in SSB4 because Brawl's mechanics, like invincibomb, land>spotdodge, when it would have hurt me in SSB4's system (which is a separate issue). But in times like 1:33 even with SSB4's system of limited Z dropping that bomb would have done better with a 7 second timer than 4. I would have had to land then stay shielding or immediately thrown it.

We'll probably have to agree to disagree but tl;dr 40 frames for up to 7 seconds of bomb pressure has advantages over 40 frames for up to 4 seconds of pressure.

 

[Elessar]

Bomb jumps make the shorter fuse superior. Link's recovery is amazing because of it and I abuse them. Link is nigh ungimpable in capable hand and you can return from almost anything.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

@ Rizen : I guess what I was demonstrating by pointing out the fact that in the vast majority of cases there wouldn't have been any difference was the fact that even though you do actually have longer to do stuff in Brawl, in reality people generally don't end up needing the full amount of time nor do they end up using it. It made sense to shave off some of that time that was unused in order to make other uses for the Bomb better.
People can make their own minds up about the specific instances you mentioned, but imo the pros far outweigh the cons.
A lot can happen in 4 seconds, perhaps more than you realise.

Edit: I will add one more thing. If you're worried about the Bomb not coming all the way back down before it explodes because you're throwing it up a bit later than usual, consider tilt throwing it up instead (maybe even JC tilt-throw upwards, which should be simple considering that every Link main should be using the A-stick by now).

 

[Zelkam]

Brawl bombs lasted for 5 seconds and Smash 4 bombs last for 3.66 seconds. I'll keep saying this until I drill it into your heads. I'm not sure where the idea that bombs lasted for 7 seconds came from....

 

[Rizen]

Was the jab cancel lock or whatever patched out? I remember something about that but never followed up on it.

 

[Serac]

Was the jab cancel lock or whatever patched out? I remember something about that but never followed up on it.

Last I heard it's still in, some people say that is harder to do.

By the way, it's possible to ftilt while holding a bomb with the wiiu pro-controler? I have been trying to do it but have yet to accomplish it.

 

[ShinnyMetal]

Last I heard it's still in, some people say that is harder to do.

By the way, it's possible to ftilt while holding a bomb with the wiiu pro-controler? I have been trying to do it but have yet to accomplish it.

Should be. It's just holding diagonally down on the stick, right?

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

Happy birthday @ link and ike lover
:b

 

[Elessar]

Last I heard it's still in, some people say that is harder to do.

By the way, it's possible to ftilt while holding a bomb with the wiiu pro-controler? I have been trying to do it but have yet to accomplish it.

Crouch and then attack with the cstick.

Brawl bombs lasted for 5 seconds and Smash 4 bombs last for 3.66 seconds. I'll keep saying this until I drill it into your heads. I'm not sure where the idea that bombs lasted for 7 seconds came from....

I don't know either but even I thought it to be 7. I remember believing that snake's nades were 5 and Link's bombs 7.

 

[link7]

I love the shorter fuses. While Link's recovery has been significantly buffed, not pulling a bomb when you're sent flying towards the blast zone makes it really difficult to recover, especially if you don't DI properly.

 

[Zane the pure]

The only thing I don''t like about shorter fuses are all the times getting kicked to the edge of the blastzone sees me dying from the explosion...

 

[Elessar]

I just got this today.

Time to learn/get used to the gcc.

 

[DarkDeity15]

I really like Sm4sh Link's bombs (and I prefer the shorter fuse as well), but I can't help but miss Melee/PM Link's bombs. There's quite a lot more you can do with them there since Link is able to interact with them there via hit boxes and hurt boxes (real bomb jumps & the many ways to bomb punt) as opposed to completely ignoring them like in Sm4sh/Brawl. It made them a lot more fun to make use of. So personally, I prefer Melee bombs. I'm hoping that one day Melee bombs and Melee spin attack can be DLC. Anyone agree?

 

[link7]

I really like Sm4sh Link's bombs (and I prefer the shorter fuse as well), but I can't help but miss Melee/PM Link's bombs. There's quite a lot more you can do with them there since Link is able to interact with them there via hit boxes and hurt boxes (real bomb jumps & the many ways to bomb punt) as opposed to completely ignoring them like in Sm4sh/Brawl. It made them a lot more fun to make use of. So personally, I prefer Melee bombs. I'm hoping that one day Melee bombs and Melee spin attack can be DLC. Anyone agree?

Link's bomb jump is so unreliable in Melee. Need a fresh Spin Attack, which you'll likely never have, to pull it off. So no to Melee bombs being DLC.
I'm certainly down for Link's Melee Spin Attack being DLC though.

 

[Zelkam]

I remember back when I was the scrubbiest of scrubs and would spam spin attack in Melee all day to win...good times, good times

 

[Naroghin]

MMmm yes, and dair dair dair without L-canceling. *raises glass*

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

I just got this today.

Time to learn/get used to the gcc.

Got mine recently too. I sucked hard at first, but lemme tell you, the controller is godly. My actions have never been so precise in this game. Short hop boomerangs like I'm a professional ping-pong player.

 

[Huggles828]

Bombs are definitely better overall. There are pros and cons to the fuse, but overall I think I like it better now that I'm used to it. It does put a time crunch on you like Rizen said and limits what you can do a little (bombsmashing is an almost automatic bomb to the face unless you do it immediately after pulling the bomb, and the shorter fuse does make you a little more predictable on when you're throwing), but it's not horrible. It's nice because if you hold the bomb for even a second or two, when you throw it, if it bounces on shield it makes your opponent stop because it will likely blow up in the air, and if they catch it, you know they're either throwing it immediately or having it blow up in their hand. Not to mention the recovery aid.

And yes, GC controller is waaay better than the other options out there.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Brawl bombs lasted for 5 seconds and Smash 4 bombs last for 3.66 seconds. I'll keep saying this until I drill it into your heads. I'm not sure where the idea that bombs lasted for 7 seconds came from....

We should change the title to reflect this. I checked and Zelkam is correct.
But first, it depends on what people mean when they say the bomb lasts for a certain amount of time. Are we counting it from the very moment you hit the button to pull the Bomb, or are we counting it from the moment the Bomb is spawned? If it's the latter (which I personally would agree with), then the answer is indeed 5 seconds for Brawl and 3.something seconds (we'll go with 3.66) for smash 4. If it's the former, then it's 5.something seconds for Brawl and more like 4 seconds for smash 4. Either way, 7 seconds is way off and it gives the wrong impression that Brawl bombs were almost twice as long when in fact the difference isn't that extreme.
If Rizen isn't here to change the title, I will. Misinformation is a plague that must be quashed the very moment it rears it's ugly head.

For those of you who think that the old Bomb fuse is better, you will be pleased to know that you are on the side of the Toon mains whose Bombs last 5 seconds.

 

[Rizen]

IDK why we all thought 7 seconds. It might be the bomb flashes 7 times before exploding? Anyway title changed.

For those of you who think that the old Bomb fuse is better, you will be pleased to know that you are on the side of the Gay mains whose Bombs last 5 seconds.

Low blow man, low blow
I do think SSB4's bombs are better overall but the shorter fuse has screwed me several times.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Low blow man, low blow

Hahaha. Yeah I'm sorry man XD. I just couldn't help myself.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Link's bomb jump is so unreliable in Melee. Need a fresh Spin Attack, which you'll likely never have, to pull it off. So no to Melee bombs being DLC.
I'm certainly down for Link's Melee Spin Attack being DLC though.

Well, they could change them up to add downsides and good sides like the rest of the custom moves. For example, the game could say that the Melee bombs do more damage (so bomb jumping ain't broke, though it still would be more reliable than simply holding the bomb til it explodes imo), last longer, have more HP and you can have more than two out at a time. However they are thrown off track by other people's hit boxes and can harm you if thrown too close to an opponent, if you blow it up with a strong attack, or if it falls on your hurtbox. I mean, they could change things up if they wanted, but all that really matters to me is that the bombs interact with Link's own hurt & hit boxes.

Here's what bomb punting is & how to perform it in case some of you didn't know. Skip to 7:48.

 

[link and ike lover]

Happy birthday @ link and ike lover
:b

Thx!
Anyone wanna ply?

 

[ShinnyMetal]

holy damn I don't like meteor bombs. Getting some good off stage kills is fun but the ground game becomes severely lacking

 

[Zelkam]

We should change the title to reflect this. I checked and Zelkam is correct.
But first, it depends on what people mean when they say the bomb lasts for a certain amount of time. Are we counting it from the very moment you hit the button to pull the Bomb, or are we counting it from the moment the Bomb is spawned? If it's the latter (which I personally would agree with), then the answer is indeed 5 seconds for Brawl and 3.something seconds (we'll go with 3.66) for smash 4. If it's the former, then it's 5.something seconds for Brawl and more like 4 seconds for smash 4. Either way, 7 seconds is way off and it gives the wrong impression that Brawl bombs were almost twice as long when in fact the difference isn't that extreme.
If Rizen isn't here to change the title, I will. Misinformation is a plague that must be quashed the very moment it rears it's ugly head.

For those of you who think that the old Bomb fuse is better, you will be pleased to know that you are on the side of the Gay mains whose Bombs last 5 seconds.

I based my time on the frame the bomb was spawned to the frame it explodes. In Brawl it was 300 frames which is 5 seconds. In Smash 4 its 220 frames which is 3.66. So we really only lost a little over a second of fuse time which isn't nearly as bad everybody thought it was. I know that for me, the main issue with the new bombs is that they start blinking almost as soon as you pull them out. I think that's what has a tendency to get in people heads and make them think "oh shoot, this thing's about to blow! I need to get rid of it quick!" when in reality you've still got a good 2 seconds.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

Honestly though, in this game 3.66 seconds is a lot of time. So much can happen in that amount of time. So regardless, I still think 5 seconds is too long.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3hTiHZmmNE

 

[Zelkam]

Watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3hTiHZmmNE

Holy...somebody get this kid a job at Laika

 

[Rizen]

I finally beat classic on 7+ and allstar with every character. IMO classic's the better custom move farming mode. On classic you can get screwed in the several opponent games if an opponent gets a smash ball then completes a 3 part weapon like Dragoon but I usually don't lose more than 1 stock a game. Allstar is very stage dependent on how hard or easy it is. Stage hazards like the pikmin crab, 5-Volt (Gamer stage devil mother) and especially F-Zero racers can instantly ruin a run.

Some characters I instantly clicked with like Ike, Falcon, Fox, Lucina, Mario, MK, Palutena, Yoshi plus the characters I sort of learned already. Other characters were hard for my to pick up like Duck Hunt, Greninja, Olimar, Peach, Samus, Sheik, WFT, Sonic, and ZSS.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

Wow great job on Classic mode.

It's tough to use certain characters. Some just aren't meant for you. Doing classic mode with Charizard on level 9 was absolute hell. I think by the time i finished, I was down to like level 7. Ironically I love using Charizard and yet I'm horrible with him.