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Link as a CP to Peach

Discussion in 'Link' started by Benny P, Sep 13, 2015.

  1. Benny P

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    Hi, i'm an ics main who is probably gonna lame out for the peach matchup. I don't wanna play fox (and not really puff either) because a sloppy fox is a terrible thing, fox has to be good to be great. I played low tier small tourney with friends and links ability to control space really intrigued me. Also, i found his matchup data

    http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Link_(SSBM)


    http://www.ssbwiki.com/Link_(SSBM)

    Is it true that Link does well on peach or is this info outdated?

    thanks everybody.
     
  2. RetroGamersGuru

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    That matchup data is too outdated. I understand the frustration with the Peach Icies MU, but Link is not the character to use to lame out for it. Most characters that wall out Peach have better movement and mobility than Peach, and Link is not one of them. In fact, they are very similar in movement speed. Peach can wall us out better with turnips, therefore a better neutral game, and her punish game is significantly better than ours with her 0-death combos based on our fall speed and weight. Admittedly our punishes can be improved on our own, but the neutral game still is in the Peach's favor for the time being.
     
  3. Benny P

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    Would you say he does "Better" than ICS do though? Save for the links, i had been thinking about Doc for the peach MU.

    Could you show me where there is more correct info on MU for link? Cheers.

    He's a fun character despite the slowness
     
  4. CnB | Chandy

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    You could try Young Link. In MUs where running away and zoning are your main priority Young Link usually does way better than Link. But honestly you're better off just developing a Sheik, Fox, or a Marth in the long run.
     
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  5. 1MachGO

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    There really isn't any because there is almost never a consensus.

    If you want a really good MU vs. Peach using a low commitment secondary, try Puff. It is far and away Peach's worst MU.

    If Puff isn't your cup of tea, you can try Sheik, Marth or even Peach (Nintendude style). Fox or Falco can get the job done too but its probably way too much effort considering you already main a very technical character who requires a lot of devotion.
     
  6. squirrels4ev

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    I really like the Peach matchup as Link. He has some nice tools for it. The way I play it is to stay basically out of her dash attack range but not so far away that she can pull turnips for free. I throw a lot of boomerangs because she is pretty slow vertically and it cuts off her float fairly well. Bombs are great too but you want to be pulling them from the cover of a boomerang toss. Bomb>dair/uair are easy finishers on her and bomb>fair is good percent and pushes her far enough away to land safely and throw another boomerang at her to cover your next bomb pull. You don't want to be trading aerials with peach but full jump instant nair can sometimes hit her during a fair startup if you need to jump over her on a stage like FD without platforms. Like most characters, Link's utilt leads to good things on her: usually just 1 uair; sometimes 2. Link can also shieldgrab her downsmash easily which means she has to play differently than she's used to playing with it. Grab usually leads to like 20% or so, sometimes 30ish if peach is at a percent where uthrow>utilt>uair works without Link getting naired. Link is also pretty good at edgeguarding peach because he has the projectiles as she comes towards the stage which lets him hold stage while he edgeguards. If Peach goes high she doesn't have good hitboxes and Link has uair and bombs still.

    Even though he has all these good things going for him against peach, Link is still slow, combo-weighted, and bad OoS so if you let her get in past your projectiles it's very easy for her to combo you. This is true of Link against most characters though so it's nothing a Link main isn't somewhat used to. Fortunately Link has a strong recovery with a lot of mixups involving the hookshot. Using those effectively takes a lot of practice though - especially if you want to be able to use them on Battlefield.

    Oh, and you have to be really willing to projectile camp in this matchup. If that doesn't appeal to you, find a different counterpick. Link's fair and nair don't cut it for this matchup and he doesn't combo peach well with uairs.
     
  7. RetroGamersGuru

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    Technically he can do better than Icies against Peach sometimes since he can fight her somewhat due to similar speed, and a good example of higher level play is with SAUS vs. Kalamazhu at GOML. Even though Link loses the set, you can get some ideas of how Link can play the MU. Yet there is also the potential to be broken down in the MU against Peach as seen with Lord HDL vs. Armada back when HDL used Link. Reptile gave some good tips as well. The other suggestions have stated what needs to be said though, Link may not be the best long-term, on-the-side secondary for you. For the fact of the matter, it takes some dedication to be good with Link in the current metagame.

    Peach in the current meta is weaker to Fox and Puff, but you said that you don't want to use those characters. In this case, I'll just list the characters that you could potentially use other than the previous ones: Falco, Sheik, Falcon, Marth, and Peach (of course).

    Falco can do well until the upper levels as of right now since Armada and MacD are incredible against Falco. Sheik is really at an advantage, but she's not at a disadvantage either. Much of the game is in the neutral until either character gets a punish opportunity, and Sheik is one of the easier characters to optimize your punishes (Armada wrote how Peach should play the Sheik MU, so you can look at it in order to figure out how to fight her better. It's on the Melee It On Me website). Falcon has numerous tools in the Peach MU as well although it's debatable again at the top level except it's with only Armada this time being the god. Marth is another good pick since he naturally controls the neutral better than Peach, and he can setup his kills well if you are crafty and study the character some. Just make sure to watch out for turnips since Peach can approach and punish better with them. Of course you can play the ditto as well, but there is the chance of the more experienced Peach main taking advantage of how you play their character. Also, she becomes very technical as you get to higher levels of play, so she requires dedication.

    As for other characters, the established mid tiers can have a rough time with Peach, but there still is not much developed in these MUs in comparison to their Spacies MUs. Yoshi takes too much dedication to be considered for a secondary (at most, he's a dual-main as well as a main), Ganondorf has a bad MU against her as well, and not much is developed with Luigi. There has been some development with Doc, but he still has trouble at the top level. The epitome of the MU currently is Shroomed vs. Armada, such as at EVO. Mario should be similar to Doc, but he focuses more on gimps and comboing into Fsmash and Dsmash, so the MU should be worse for him considering how Peach recovers and is floaty. Knowledge of Pikachu's MU is mostly based on how Axe plays the MU, but he's not always used Pika against Peach. Besides the other mid tiers mentioned, there is Samus to use, but I don't know how that MU goes very well, so I won't try to give an opinion on something like that.

    Below those mid tiers, what you've got left are of course our character, Link, and Young Link. Young Link is a common secondary that can be used against Peach (since he is used mostly as a secondary for the three main floaties: Puff, Peach, and your character Icies) if you aren't looking at top or high tiers, but it won't be easy either, just easier than Link. Some players who used him against Peach are Axe and Chudat.

    Overall, if you want a quick secondary, the top and high tiers have the options. If you want to experiment with other characters, you will have to do more work and research for mid tiers, except for the Links, but even then you still have to work with the characters for a while to succeed in the MU. I personally think both Links can be fun to use, but I know that they don't always fit people's criteria.

    If you get in the unfortunate situation of facing a Peach as Icies, channel the soul of Wobbles, but you know this already (although you seriously should take some ideas of how he plays the bad MU).

    Just wanted to cover as much as possible, so you'll have to excuse the long post (at least for answering a question).
     
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  8. Benny P

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    Yo i will defs check wobbles out, cant believe i hadn't sooner. I watch a lot of chu due to his simpler style being easier to replicate kind of.

    what do people think of this link vs peach set?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHlRQTjCloc

    thanks all lets keep this going
     
  9. squirrels4ev

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    EDIT: oops, accidentally posted too soon without giving my thoughts. I think Christian plays the matchup differently than I envision myself playing it. He's very good at spacing his fairs and I'm really not that good at spacing fair. He shows off Link's ability to stuff peach with nair and Moltov also shows that poorly spaced nairs are easily punished by a counter nair from peach. You see a lot of single upairs from Christian and the commentators also mention that peach doesn't have anything to get down on Link's upair with. I really like that set. Christian demonstrates ideal spacing throughout it, keeping peach from pulling turnips with fairs and pulling bombs when he hits peach far away or up with fair or nair or an fsmash. He lets Link habits get the better of him when he upsmashes that platform in game 2. That doesn't work on floaties, but it might have been a missed input utilt or sh uair, both of which would have been better options. You also get to see how Link can shield grab the dsmash and how good Link's recovery is in this set. He nairs to cover his approach towards the stage from turnips and uses airdodges to get around turnips before hookshotting the stage to recover. Link can also let go of the ledge about twice as fast as every other character, which can throw people off if they don't know he can do that.
     
    #9 squirrels4ev, Sep 14, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2015
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  10. RetroGamersGuru

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    Don't get me wrong, Chu's style of tech skill is much easier to replicate than other Icies, but Chu also is an experienced player that has been around since the community first began. So keep in mind why Chu chooses certain options (other than grabs for wobbling punishes, that part is easy to see) because he constantly is trying to dissect his opponent based on his experience of playing the game. Also, the less tech you use, the more you have to outsmart your own opponent. This is not to say that having max tech skill means no mind games but rather, you are left with less options, so you have to figure out how to trick your opponent while still using the same limited options in your arsenal. This is pretty much what happens with all low / bottom tier character users because the characters themselves have less options to explore and implement into their gameplay.

    As for the Peach set, there is much that can be discussed from the match, and this isn't the highest level of the MU. Aside from what Reptile has pointed out, I would like to point out how Christian converted off of down throw. We already are aware of Link's signature up tilt to up air juggles or up tilt to maybe one other up tilt on peach before an aerial. But around the slight mid percents before down throw to up air is ideal, when Christian wouldn't be able to use either juggle tool, Peach would be able to use her nair to break away from a potential combo. In response to this, Christian would down throw, make Link look like he was about to move to combo Peach with an aerial, and instantly go into shield to keep himself safe from the nair and to punish it (mostly with a grab to punish Peach's landing). Christian demonstrates this mix up / tool a few times this set, and one time, he actually did this two times in a row. Sorry if I'm being ignorant about this counteraction, I've never seen this done before against Peach. Also, even based on Christian's other sets, he uses Link as an aggressive spacing character and tries to come up with some hard reads (like him using Fsmash and Up B to take stocks away from Peach when coming up from the ledge. I think it goes without saying that you shouldn't try to go for hard reads most of the time, but sometimes you have to as Link, and this set imo demonstrates a decent balance on reads and fundamentals. His other sets however show him going for reads much more than necessary imo. Overall, this is a good textbook set for the aggressive, spacing Link style. The Peach made numerous mistakes and could improve in multiple aspects, so this obviously doesn't show the higher levels of competition. Otherwise, it's a good set to watch and take some ideas from.
     
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  11. CAUP

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    As a peach player who plays against a solid link fairly often, I do not recommend taking up this matchup. Peach definitely has the advantage. When I lose in that matchup it is because I have been thoroughly outplayed.

    Young Link is significantly better in the matchup. Significantly better. Way more annoying and effective.
     
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  12. RetroGamersGuru

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    Ok, so @Benny P, you now have both sides' opinions on how the MU is just to get an idea of what you would be getting into.

    BTW, I'm just curious. How does the Link play the MU when against you? Or is it one of the more prevalent Links and I'm uninformed on who it is. We know who has the advantage, but I just wonder if the playstyle you fight against makes the MU even worse for us. I seriously don't know.
     
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  13. CAUP

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    Hmm. That's hard to say. I don't know the guy's tag. His style is pretty passive aggressive I guess? If you just leave him alone he'll smother you with projectiles so you have to approach and he's ready and good at reading and intercepting approaches with aerials or with projectile into aerial. He is very good at combining floaties so he'll get several good hits off. And he knows down throw follow ups on almost all of peach's di. His style is mostly about forcing peach to go somewhere and then combo her with aerial strings.
     
  14. RetroGamersGuru

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    That honestly sounds like a current Link meta player, but I would have to see a match specifically to see exactly what you mean. But if it is that, that means that we have to try to figure something out to see if there is anything to make the MU more even.
     
  15. Bravo_10

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    Why hello there CAUP!

    The Link player you have experience would likely be CJ, if you're from Athens. Plays with the black tunic? CJ and I are Georgia's two best Link mains, with relatively different styles.

    Funny enough, I outplace CJ at almost every tournament, but he beats me in the head-to-head like 60-70% of the time. I think this is because his neutral game is considerably better than mine, and neither of us are particularly good at comboing in the Link ditto. The one time I played against your Peach, it felt impossible to break your turnip walling. You pretty much just ran backwards if you ever saw a chance that I might be able to put you in a bad situation in neutral, and I wasn't patient enough to deal with it. CJ is much better at using projectiles than I am, so I'd imagine he would make neutral pretty irritating for Peach to deal with.

    However, I've been labbing the Peach matchup pretty hard lately with Baka4moe and this other guy dbag (yes that's his actual tag), and I've come to think it's not so bad for Link after all. Maintaining stage control is so much easier for Link because he has a better way of covering the side platforms than she does. It's difficult to corner Link because he's just.. ever so slightly faster than she is. You really need to make a hard read to stop Link from simply wavelanding out of there, and Link has enough combo tools on Peach to rack damage fast enough to at least keep up with her ridiculous combo game. Also, down throw to kill move is devastating. Peach can't really kill with her throws until she gets to a high enough percent that f-throw does the trick, but Link getting a grab anywhere from 90-150 is pretty much instant death.

    Now I don't think Link actually wins, mind you. Turnips are still troublesome, and Peach still racks damage like a champ. But I think the matchup is 55-45 at best.
     
    #15 Bravo_10, Sep 30, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2015
  16. CAUP

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    I was talking about CJ. I didn't realize that was his tag XD

    I mean I can see 55-45 at best but I think 60-40 is a lot more realistic but still fairly optimistic at a high level. Link can combo peach but peach just combos link better. Link's projectiles aren't that great except for the bomb, boomerang can just be naired through. It's just for every exchange peach wins, link has to win way more. And once peach gains stage control it is a true struggle for link. I do think the matchup is doable, by no means a counter pick.
     
  17. Benny P

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    Hey all, going for Y.Link as secondary. I admire Link's general Strength ,(Especially Up b) But Y.Link has the better movement and speed. There's also more data of top players CP'ing peaches with our Y.Link.

    I doubt it, but if i ever mained a link, i'd go the regular adult link, but seeing as im an ICS player, i'll go the Y.Link. I'm PAL btw.
     
  18. RetroGamersGuru

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    No semi-spike = Deal Breaker. Lol
     
  19. Benny P

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    yeah, some PAL things really suck hahaha
     
  20. Someturtlesaregreen

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    I would think Peach's turnips make it hard for Link to recover. Might of already been mentioned.
     
    #20 Someturtlesaregreen, Oct 1, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2015
  21. Bravo_10

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    It's not actually that bad. He's heavy enough that they don't knock him very far offstage until he's at high percents. Some players like SAUS are also really good at teching the stage when she throws them at the ledge sweetspot. And of course, you can do a bit of offstage dodging if you airdodge-hookshot around them.

    For real though, Young Link is a more effective counterpick to Peach. His gameplan is pretty simple, mostly running away and throwing things at her, and he has a pretty easy time getting off bomb -> kill move conversions. Another nice thing about YLink is that his up-B tends to stuff turnips whenever he's recovering.
     
  22. Looticforgothispassword

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    While this is true you can get around the problem by catching the turnips or airdodge -> hookshot.
     
  23. Team Plasma N

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    At the same time, it's not that difficult to gimp that recovery.
     
  24. Looticforgothispassword

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    What do you mean? I think they are kinda safe and doable.
     
  25. Team Plasma N

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    If your opponent catches on to using the hookshot recovery, all it would take is a thrown turnip to mess it up (though it seems true for Up B too). Could be just me though.
     
  26. Zodiac

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    I know its old but eh why not here's my 2 cents, actually 5 cents.

    Link as a peach counter pick is a lot like using like to CP any high tier, you have to play your neutral game very carefully and make sure you are only committing to a course of action when you know its a good decision and have a clear and open path to victory. Just throwing things at Peach won't do a lot because eventually they will start catching your bombs and just blocking your other throwy things because they will figure "Yeah why not just sit here and block them because there is too much lag for him to capitalize off of it at close range on shield" which is for the most part true, there are a ton of gimmicks and mind games that will work a couple of times as Link but after that the one trick pony is out of ideas and you can get easily punished for committing to gimmicks too hard.

    So instead what I suggest is playing the neutral game super hard and as I said, only going in when there is a clear course, and a lot of times that means making peach come to you. You have to be careful because Link sucks in shield (Nair oos isn't nearly as good as people say it is) and she can easily pressure your shield into a grab. But peach is very slow, and Link actually has superior mobility believe it or not, and thats where you can press the advantage and play the neutral better than her, especially in larger stages. Battlefield is probably the best stage for this, if you are confident in your kill combos on peach dreamland is kind of sort of an option but your neutral has to be extremely on point for that risk to be taken.

    Projectiles, I have talked a lot about just playing the neutral and making peach come to you, which I firmly believe is the way to play link, and I think of projectiles as less of a zoning tool these days and more of a combo tool or a method of which to rack up damage in preparation for that down air or up air killer. The very beginning of the match is never the time to use projectiles, you don't want them afraid to come in and attack right form the get go, you want them to come in so you can get the read and start comboing. It also helps you identify what approach options they are most comfortable with since that is what they will most likely default to when they are in a panic or backed into a corner. That's when you start using projectiles, when you know they will hit and you know what their habits are so you can control the space and direct them into areas of the stage you can control with your normals.
     
  27. Zodiac

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    Also on the note of recovery, the meta has evolved to the point where just about anyone can learn to edge guard Link in the space of a single match, which really sucks, so you just have to rely on good di to put you above the stage, recovering below the stage is something you NEVER want to do.
     
  28. SAUS

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    Link still has better mixups with his recovery than, say, Falcon, and more capability to recover from long range than someone like Falco or Shiek. Some characters aren't that good at edge guarding a low-recovering Link, anyway (most notably, Falco). The ability to air dodge through hitboxes and still recover is a good thing on its own. Good DI is pretty much expected these days. Bad DI is usually just funny (even when it is the result of an incorrect read).

    I'd say the matchup against Peach is, overall, roughly even.

    Both characters kind of poop on each other with their punishes (even if Link's punishes are less combo-y, he can run with an advantage out of neutral for a long time). The major difference between the characters is that Link needs the match to be controlled (ie lots of deliberate actions, no moments where you need to panic shield or panic attack) while Peach wants the match to be chaotic (lots of close-range footsies and hits on shield). Peach will basically destroy Link in close range because her hit boxes come out way faster and do not lose to CC while Link's moves are slower and suck against CC.

    I disagree that Peach wins the neutral by walling with turnips. Peach doesn't want to be walling Link out, Link wants to be walling Peach out. If Peach gets a good setup with a turnip, she wins the situation because you have to shield or roll against her float - not because you can back off and just get another bomb for free. Float fair -> grab beats all of Link's OOS options except roll and spot dodge (which both suck for obvious reasons). Link actually has the upper hand with projectiles because Link has better vertical mobility. Turnips and bombs both fall, making it easier to use when your opponent is below you. So being above your opponent is very useful (though not directly above). On a side platform on any stage, Peach basically can't hit you with turnips without either getting underneath you or onto the top platform - both of which give up center stage.

    Link loses neutral to Peach if he gets run down - the complete opposite of being walled out. Peach is the one who loses from being walled out (or forever retreated from).
     
    #28 SAUS, Oct 14, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2015
    Benny P, The Carpenter, Thor and 3 others like this.
  29. Looticforgothispassword

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    People struggle to edgeguard me, I rarely feel like I'm in a bad spot. I think you need to find more paths to the ledge. Sweetspot hookshot is really great and throwing projectiles over the ledge helps too. If you also do a well timed Up B its hard to make anything against you. You just need to know where to do what.
     
    #29 Looticforgothispassword, Oct 14, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2015
  30. Zodiac

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    If someone is struggling to edge guard you as link then they don't know how to do it or their choking, his recovery is deceptively bad, not that its a terrible recovery but it can be easily edge guarded if your opponent knows the match up.
     
  31. ihasabuket

    ihasabuket
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    Smash Journeyman

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    Recently found out that peach cant CC links jab because of the nature of sakurai angles(361 degrees). If she tries to CC she goes into spikestun. This helps to build damage early on until you can get to knockdown/launch %s. It also helps keep her out especially since links second jab can be interuppted after only 10 frames(faster than almost every other jab in the game including fox/falcos).
    Imo nair isnt a very good tool in this MU and your go to aerials in neutral are fair and bair. You can also use Dair to read a CC dsmash since you'll pogo on them. That said it's always better to be pulling projectiles instead. When you launch peach with an aerial but she ends up too far away I followup with a boomerang, arrow, or zair to get in some extra damage. At low %s spaced fair jabs are good because of what i mentioned.
     
    #31 ihasabuket, Nov 16, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2015
  32. SYickX

    SYickX
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    Smash Cadet

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    Something else you should consider is that Link beats ICs, so it gives you something for the ditto (assuming you don't like the ditto).
    I learned from a (now retired) Peach and the matchup flows as SAUS said. I'm confused by the people saying that think Link can't recover. With 3 projectlies, saving your jump through the hookshot, the hundreds of hookshot sweetspots (literally hundreds) and up B, the only character that can consistently edgeguard Link is Sheik.

    One really important problem with using Link as a CP to Peach is if that Peach has a pocket Fox or Sheik. Those matchups take a lot of effort and time to learn, so you can lose CP wars.

    I don't know your playstyle, but if you like playing slow and careful, Puff is a better choice (as people said before).
    Marth is also a solid pick, but when you are using a secondary, you want the matchup to be way in your favor.
    Winning even and losing matchups takes a lot of work on your main, so CP to a slight disadvantage isn't going to pay dividends.

    I tried a similar thing with the Link/Sheik matchup. I tried both Young Link and Falco. Eventually, they were a waste of time because the matchup isn't a hard enough counter (or a counter at all in Y. Link's case).
    Now, I stick with Link, and I'm constantly figuring out better ways to fight the ninja.
     
  33. Looticforgothispassword

    Looticforgothispassword
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    The thing with Links recovery is that it's actually a lot more technical than other characters, you actually need to be able to aim the hookshot so that you get max length of it and sweetspot. Basically its the idea that you are recovering on BF every time. If you can't do that your recovery as Link sucks. If you however are consistent with the hookshot youll get an instant swoop to the ledge with IASA invincibilty frames at the startup.
     
  34. SAUS

    SAUS
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    I'm not sure I'd say Link beats ICs. It's even at best, imo.
     
    Benny P, Thor and Team Plasma N like this.
  35. 4Serial

    4Serial
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    I feel like IC's has a pretty clear advantage in the matchup. I played against Vanitas not too long ago @SAUS and it went to game 5 last stock and it was suuuper stressful. I actually don't mind the matchup tho, it's fun in a way that forces you to play so on point. Any tips how to beat Al as a player? ;p I'll try to get intel on the ICs in my region for ya lol

    Something I've struggled with against them is what stage to play on, mostly banning PS or FD. I don't feel like FD is that bad for Link in the matchup, but i haven't played the matchup enough. It's tough trying to get real ICs exp cuz most of them don't play 100% in friendlies and go savage wobbling mode in tournament
     
  36. SAUS

    SAUS
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    Smash Ace

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    Honestly, I haven't beaten him in a while lol. I've been rethinking the ICs matchup a little bit, but haven't had much time to put anything to the test. I think my problem is I would try to camp too much or I would throw out too many attacks from being too scared of letting him anywhere near me.
     
  37. Thor

    Thor
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    Smash Champion

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    Fox can edgeguard Link consistently as well with Firefox stalling on the ledge [if done correctly, ridiculously effective way to hold ledge], then he can easily shine spike or fastfall double jump bair Link for the stock. It takes more effort than it does as Sheik [or anyone else], but it's possible. Falco can do something similar, but he doesn't have shine spike pressure making it marginally easier.

    I'm not sure, but it may be theoretically impossible to recover against Marth without hookshot... I'm pretty sure we can't sweetspot around dtilt/fsmash, so that if they can space and time it, it's good night. Not sure how hookshot affects things though.

    As for Ice Climbers, I just platform camp, platform camp, platform camp. On FD, my gameplan is less steady/seems less effective, but there's a lot of fair and some double jump nairs involved. It feels weird trying to hit ICs shield safely, as we *should* be able to do so, but it feels quite tough to actually execute doing so [and far more than just L-cancelling, but hitting them in a position where trying to mash jab or buffer spotdodge afterwards feels unnecessary]. That might be a personal thing though.
     
  38. Looticforgothispassword

    Looticforgothispassword
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    Smash Ace

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    hookshot makes marths edgeguard pretty bad vs Link
     
  39. SYickX

    SYickX
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    There is a spacing game with Spin against Marth onstage where you can play between hitting him, and Link's early sweetspot (before the last slash). Plus, you can always tech.

    Fox cannot stop Link from snapping to the ledge with hookshot by Firefox stalling. Link can sneak in and take ledge with a perfect hookshot.

    Hanging from the sweetspot (with your jump) gives you a better than 50/50 where Fox risks death going for the shine, Link can pop up and go on/offstage and Link can double-jump after the hookshot breaks, then up b to stage/ledge.

    In other words, Link always has a mixup to avoid what Fox wants to do. There are tons of sweetspots and Link's magic hands are pretty big.

    It's harder against Sheik because her bair can float in exactly the right place, but I've had some success with low hookshot>wall tech>ub B. My new insane idea is to get hit on purpose by faking hookshot with an empty airdodge (try to get reverse hit).
     
  40. ihasabuket

    ihasabuket
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    Smash Journeyman

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    If youre high up you can shoot an arrow before using hookshot/up b. You can even pull a bomb without fastfalling just familiarize yourself with the controller deadzones that kadano provided. If you have your DJ you can arrow/boomerang before doing a hookshot. You should be covering the edge with a projectile much like axe does with pikachu.
     
    #40 ihasabuket, Dec 10, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2015

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