Ademisk
Smash Champion
No, my point is, if you ledge cancel the PK Fire FORWARD, then it would fly off the stage, hit the opponent, fun stuff all around. Backwards means you PK Fire directly into the ground, what's the point in that?
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Lets talk. (Ness boards, not Fox)
- Thread starter kenny10
- Start date
i understood your point. i was corroborating it by saying that forward facing pk fires still hit the stage sometimes if you don't land close enough to the edge for it to fly off, but you still land close enough to slide off and cancel your animation.
Ademisk
Smash Champion
Anyway, the general consensus on PK Fire is that it is awesome and rad. What's next? I wanna talk about edgeguarding more. Edgeguarding is very important against Ness's biggest problems, Falco, Sheik, and even Marth. A Ness who is a master at Edgeguarding with PK Thunder, dair, and PK Flash can seriously overcome his shortcomings with those three characters.
I have a question about PK Thunder. I've only recently gotten decent at aiming the tailwhips for anti-recovery purposes, but...I haven't done it much on humans. Whenever I try it on bots, I simply can't kill them. I hit a Ganondorf with my tailwhip 4 times, when he would've died normally, and he survived. Do Level 9 CPUs have too much response? I mean...how effective is tailwhipping against a human psyche in comparison? Anyone who's done lots of tailwhipping on humans and CPUs and against really good humans especially, I'd like to know this.
I have a question about PK Thunder. I've only recently gotten decent at aiming the tailwhips for anti-recovery purposes, but...I haven't done it much on humans. Whenever I try it on bots, I simply can't kill them. I hit a Ganondorf with my tailwhip 4 times, when he would've died normally, and he survived. Do Level 9 CPUs have too much response? I mean...how effective is tailwhipping against a human psyche in comparison? Anyone who's done lots of tailwhipping on humans and CPUs and against really good humans especially, I'd like to know this.
kenny10
Smash Journeyman
CPUs once they start an upB would most likely keep doing it if they're interupted in any way. Like tailwhipping Ganondorf, he would upB, you hit him and he immediately upBs again. Against a human, if you interupt them, there will be a blank WTF moment where they do nothing before they realize that they're not recovering. So tailwhipping is more effective on humans.
Ademisk
Smash Champion
Obviously, my question is, if the person is paying attention, how much MORE effective is it?
Levitas
the moon
Ademisk, what you're asking is if you're playing against someone good who is paying attention, will they make better decisions than a CPU.
The answer is always yes.
The answer is always yes.
Ademisk
Smash Champion
Noooo, what I'm asking is, if I tailwhip a good Ganondorf 4 freaking times, will he die?
No my real question isn't a yes or no question, it's how much difference there is between the computers timing and a really good players timing. Mindgames aside.
And to DD151, a small jab is gonna make you miss the sweetspot, 3 of them aren't even gonna give you half a chance.
No my real question isn't a yes or no question, it's how much difference there is between the computers timing and a really good players timing. Mindgames aside.
And to DD151, a small jab is gonna make you miss the sweetspot, 3 of them aren't even gonna give you half a chance.
1, 4, 14 small jabs give your opponent another chance to up b while you're frantically directing your thunder into a wall so you can actually do something else
Ademisk
Smash Champion
That's true, I've seen that problem with computers myself, given perfect timing. But let's put it this way. If you manage to tailwhip a Marth trying to sweetspot the moment he attempts to Up B, he will drop, he will drop slightly, VERY slightly...but it will probably be enough to stop the sweetspot.
Also, according to Simna, the tip of the tailwhip stuns slightly longer. If that's right, hitting with the tail, and using the extra stun to whip their feet before they can Up-B should be enough to kill them, in many situations.
Also, according to Simna, the tip of the tailwhip stuns slightly longer. If that's right, hitting with the tail, and using the extra stun to whip their feet before they can Up-B should be enough to kill them, in many situations.
Levitas
the moon
My point remains valid, however.
If a computer is managing to survive after 4 tailwhips, then a good player will either do it the same or do it better. Many players I play with can act within a frame of being released from stun, so I am almost certain that the only real way that a player will do worse is if they don't understand the danger of a tailwhip.
If a computer is managing to survive after 4 tailwhips, then a good player will either do it the same or do it better. Many players I play with can act within a frame of being released from stun, so I am almost certain that the only real way that a player will do worse is if they don't understand the danger of a tailwhip.
Ademisk
Smash Champion
Fastfallers have a more difficult time of it, especially Falco.
And I have yet to test the fact about the tip properly. It could be the key to reliably tailwhipping people to death. Also, your logic is unfinished.
If a player doesn't know what the tailwhip can do, they will be killed by it. Why? It's because they don't see it coming.
If a player can respond within 1 frame of the hitstun and he sees the tailwhip coming, he can overcome multiple tailwhips.
Thus, the next logical step would be.
If a player can respond within 1 frame of the hitstun, but he does not in fact see it coming, it may have a definite effect on him.
So, in order for a player capable of responding that quickly and timing it well enough to be killed by the tailwhip, we would have to get them into a situation where they would expect the tailwhip to miss them.
WELL. That or hit the opponent multiple times fast enough that they DON'T get out of hitstun. If you do that even once, it destroys the opponents timing, and once they're out of hitstun, they'll fall further than they normally would. That would potentially work, but again, that has to do with perfect control and hitting with the tip of the tail.
Past the simple use of the Tailwhip, it could be used to distract your opponent from your true purpose. Like what Simna does, attempt to tailwhip the opponent, and then direct the head into yourself the instant before the opponent grabs the ledge in order to attempt a PK Thunder 2 with minimal risk, due to the distance away from the enemy it sends you.
And of course, hitting someone with the head is always a good mindgame, if they're good at avoiding conventional edgeguards. It might mess with their sense of recovery and possibly force them to miss a sweetspot and allow for easier edgeguarding.
And I have yet to test the fact about the tip properly. It could be the key to reliably tailwhipping people to death. Also, your logic is unfinished.
If a player doesn't know what the tailwhip can do, they will be killed by it. Why? It's because they don't see it coming.
If a player can respond within 1 frame of the hitstun and he sees the tailwhip coming, he can overcome multiple tailwhips.
Thus, the next logical step would be.
If a player can respond within 1 frame of the hitstun, but he does not in fact see it coming, it may have a definite effect on him.
So, in order for a player capable of responding that quickly and timing it well enough to be killed by the tailwhip, we would have to get them into a situation where they would expect the tailwhip to miss them.
WELL. That or hit the opponent multiple times fast enough that they DON'T get out of hitstun. If you do that even once, it destroys the opponents timing, and once they're out of hitstun, they'll fall further than they normally would. That would potentially work, but again, that has to do with perfect control and hitting with the tip of the tail.
Past the simple use of the Tailwhip, it could be used to distract your opponent from your true purpose. Like what Simna does, attempt to tailwhip the opponent, and then direct the head into yourself the instant before the opponent grabs the ledge in order to attempt a PK Thunder 2 with minimal risk, due to the distance away from the enemy it sends you.
And of course, hitting someone with the head is always a good mindgame, if they're good at avoiding conventional edgeguards. It might mess with their sense of recovery and possibly force them to miss a sweetspot and allow for easier edgeguarding.
Ademisk
Smash Champion
Okay, for one, it's possible. Explanations would have to go into small details, let's just say, hit them with the tail, and then do it again, and then what you have to do is hit them again. Look at Simna's combo video preview, the part where Pikachu gets tailwhipped.
The second part is also wrong. Rather...it's that....if you're trying to hit yourself, you're only going to use the PK Thunder to get the enemy into the position that you want.
kenny10
Smash Journeyman
We should make an entire thread labeled Mingames with PKT.
Anyways, I see what you are saying Ademisk don't get me wrong. Computers normally have a faster reaction reaction time than humans in some cases. But at the same time, they're not really convinient to practice things on because of two things.
1. CPUs are just too predicatable. When off the stage, they'll attempt to recover right away.
2. CPUs don't DI. when they get hit by a tailwhip, they won't wait to DI closer to the stage, they'll upB again right away.
Besides, I saw a video of Simna tailwhipping a Ganondorf somewhere and killed him with it so it's possible against a human.
Anyways, I see what you are saying Ademisk don't get me wrong. Computers normally have a faster reaction reaction time than humans in some cases. But at the same time, they're not really convinient to practice things on because of two things.
1. CPUs are just too predicatable. When off the stage, they'll attempt to recover right away.
2. CPUs don't DI. when they get hit by a tailwhip, they won't wait to DI closer to the stage, they'll upB again right away.
Besides, I saw a video of Simna tailwhipping a Ganondorf somewhere and killed him with it so it's possible against a human.
Ademisk
Smash Champion
Right, but I don't have the luxury of not practicing against CPUs. I do what I can. I was simply wondering if I needed to step my tailwhipping up another level, or if I could actually kill people with it now. Given your last response, I think I might be able to.
Also, my new sig is boss.
Also, my new sig is boss.
Ademisk
Smash Champion
Fox, almost always, for Falco...it's tough to say.
Levitas
the moon
It also depends on the direction you hit them in, but usually everyone is going to benefit from it in terms of recovery.
arrowhead
Smash Ace
yes it does
Ademisk
Smash Champion
A) Point blank - Yes. Always. Everything. It has invincibility frames.
B) Weak point - Depends on what part of the Firefox
c) From the side - No, Firefox wins.
B) Weak point - Depends on what part of the Firefox
c) From the side - No, Firefox wins.
arrowhead
Smash Ace
does c mean perpendicular to his trajectory?
Ademisk
Smash Champion
No, him perpendicular to your trajectory.
arrowhead
Smash Ace
trajectory just means the path of something. so perpendicular to PKT's trajectory
now that i think about it, it doesn't have to hit him perpendicularly, right? just on his side. but then where does his side end and his front begin?
now that i think about it, it doesn't have to hit him perpendicularly, right? just on his side. but then where does his side end and his front begin?
Levitas
the moon
lol, get AR and look at the hitboxes if you're really into knowing that.
kenny10
Smash Journeyman
What if you don't have an AR?
Why would you want to hit a Firefox with PKT when almost anything works better?
Why would you want to hit a Firefox with PKT when almost anything works better?
Levitas
the moon
Why are you asking irrelevant and rhetorical questions? lol.
If you don't have AR, then test it without AR. It's possible to find where hitboxes start and end without AR.
And the second question: sandbagging. Any combo can be followed up by a PKT. Sure it doesn't necessarily combo, but it's funny.
If you don't have AR, then test it without AR. It's possible to find where hitboxes start and end without AR.
And the second question: sandbagging. Any combo can be followed up by a PKT. Sure it doesn't necessarily combo, but it's funny.
Ademisk
Smash Champion
Sandbagging is a bad answer. A better one would be mindgames. People don't expect you to PK Thunder it, BECAUSE it is a bad move. Take advantage of that to screw up someone's recovery, even slightly, and then punish. If you can't punish, then you fail, don't do it.
Ademisk
Smash Champion
Screw the double post. I want to improve my technical Ness. Tell me how, now.
kenny10
Smash Journeyman
Merry Christmas people! Here's hoping for presents and a good Brawl update. Maybe it might be to confirm Ness. That would be awesome.
Ademisk, you mean like DJC? Or like reaction or what?
Ademisk, you mean like DJC? Or like reaction or what?
Ademisk
Smash Champion
I mean "Ness is the third fastest character in the game" technical
Levitas
the moon
lol, who said that? I see no truth in the above statement.
Ademisk
Smash Champion
I forget who said it. Wasn't it Mow? I think it was Mow.
thesage
Smash Hero
Twas Mow. It's wrong. Fox and Falcon are the fastest in the game, the rest is subjective. Ness can be really fast, but so can Pichu....
Also, merry X-mas everybody. I hope we still stay together in brawl even though Ness probably won't be in the game (still hoping though...).
Also: if you wanna talk Ness aim = theicywatermage (thesage was taken...).
Also, merry X-mas everybody. I hope we still stay together in brawl even though Ness probably won't be in the game (still hoping though...).
Also: if you wanna talk Ness aim = theicywatermage (thesage was taken...).
Levitas
the moon
lol, ditto on the brawl stuff.
Merry christmas!
Merry christmas!
thesage
Smash Hero
Well, I'll Ness ditto you!
Ademisk
Smash Champion
I still pretty much doubt they'd take Ness out of brawl. Also, I added you Sage, but you're not on. Get on.
Also, my point was, how do I get fast and crazy with the NessinNess?
Also, my point was, how do I get fast and crazy with the NessinNess?