Lets talk. (Ness boards, not Fox)

[kenny10]

I'm a Ness player, you're a Ness player, let's talk about playing Ness.

I'd like to talk about maneuvering, stage selection, edge guarding, recovering, and combos as they relate to specific match ups, or just playing philosophy in general. I just want to try to learn some new stuff, as I'm sure everyone else does.

Try to keep the posts intelligent, I actually decided that questions are good, as long as they aren't vague or about how to perform technical things like DJCing or anything like that. If you have something of actual substance to talk about please post. However, if all you have to say is "play smart" just don't bother until you figure out how to go beyond just saying that.


I'm not sure where to start, but there's pretty much an endless amount of things to talk about so we might as well start somewhere.

This is also to give me something to do in anticipation of brawl.

I guess Ness vs. middle tier would be good to start.

EDIT: Sry Brookman, I had to.

 

[Ademisk]

bad, bad, even, even, even, even, bad, even, good.

 

[kenny10]

Ok but could you explain how and why?

 

[Ademisk]

**** you, making me work.

Peach: She has better projectiles than Ness, and better edgeguard/recovery options. It's difficult to get some of Ness's better attacks off on her.

Falcon....wait, Falcon? Not Falco? I'm putting it back to Even then: Falcon's knee is better than your bair, but your fair outdoes it most of the time. The number one thing Ness has against a falcon is edgeguard though, just get right above his recovery range at something like 55%+ and knock him away with an nair over and over. If he gets close enough to the stage, bat him.

Luigi and Ness are pretty even, but that's just my opinion. His wavedash attacks are kinda outdone by your bat and PK fire(though you have to use some mindgames). And Ness has just as good aerials.

I don't fight a lot of Marios, but they seem to be even against Ness.

Jiggs: Okay, here is where I differ from most people. I find Jiggs and Ness to be pretty even. Ness tends to have good attacks against a Jigglypuff on the ground, just don't bat unless you're sure it can hit the **** floaty piece of crap...>_>. And, for once, I absolutely have to agree, the best advice to use with Jigglypuff is NEVER GET OFF THE STAGE. Ever. But if you're off, go for hard to reach sweetspots, straight up recovery sweetspots make Jigglypuff cry.

Ness VS IC: ........I'm just guessing.


Ness VS Samus: Missiles suck. Plus the only attack you can really use to edgeguard Samus(besides tailwhipping which is hard as hell cuz she's a floaty bomb jumping *****) is your fair. Otherwise, just try to approach with fast bairs to cancel her missiles and....I dunno...mindgames?

Ness VS Link: ..I Just...I just don't know anymore. Before I'd have said good, maybe even, but....I've been getting owned by Links lately...wtf?


Ness VS Ganondorf: I put this at good for Ness because, despite their major powar, I don't have much problem fighting em. They get hit by my aerials easily enough, and once they're off the edge above 60%, nair nair nair nair(maybe even throw in a PK Flash, it's worked for me more than once)

 

[GildedPunch]

lol @ Ademisk.

 

[Levitas]

I'd say that now that wobbling is back, the matchup is even more in IC's favor. On the other hand, they're not a threat at all in the air. Pop them up, divide and conquer. Avoid their grabs at all costs.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

You aren't fighting good ganons firstoff, Ganon murders ness for the most part.

Ganon outranges ness on the ground and for the most part, in the air too. Ganon kills you horizontally very easily and about as easy vertically if a dair catches you. He edgeguards you about as easy as you can edgeguard him due to the nature of ness's upb. Ganon is by no means a good matchup for ness.

If you think ness vs falcon is even, I wouldn't be wanting your advice. Falcon is faster, has better grab combos. Combos you from 0-death quite easily,etc. How you figure it is even, I do not know.

 

[Levitas]

Bluedeath, the thing that you're missing here is that "even" used in this context has a different meaning than in, say, the fox boards. If someone doesn't completely tear ness limb from limb, that's even. There are worse things in this game than falcon combos (especially if they don't know about ness's weaknesses).

In terms of gannon, Ness's poor survival skills are offset by the ease at which he can combo gannon. Gannon is slower, a much larger target, and has poor recovery. He cannot combo Ness to death, and his edgeguard game is not spectacular. While this may not make things favorable for Ness, a low tier player will have a much easier time fighting gannon than marth or the puff as Ness.

 

[tehSANDMAN]

I hate ICs...seriously. Havent played a lot of them but PK Fire seems to be one of your best weapons against them. Seeing as they stay on the ground most of the time and fire traps nana.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

You don't know the ganon matchup at all if you say ganon can't combo you to death. Infact, you don't know ganon any by saying that.

And the term EVEN means its an even match, in all the boards. Ness is at a disadvantage against ganon.

If its not even, you state hes at a slight/heavy disadvantage or advantage and go onto state the reasons, if not, its really not worth the trouble.

But back to ganon, yes, you combo him well, but hes heavy, you aren't, hes going to live to high %s for the most part. He kills you in around 4 hits, and yes, he has combos, regardless of what you think, throw in hes going to do far worse to you when tech chasing does not equal "even".

 

[Levitas]

Sandman, there's a thread over in the IC boards started by simna about the pk fire where everyone basically says that it's not a huge threat because only a few of us have the mindgames to pull one off.

bluedeath, do you actually play as ness? It wouldn't be helpful if all of our topics were "Ness gets ***** by *insertcharactername* and this is how it's done". I could say that I'd lose to linguini every time, but that would be more due to a difference of skill as much as any character advantage.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

Do I play ness, No....do I have friends that play ness competitively? oddly yes, one.

Do I know how ness can handle matchups? Yes, due to listening to the more experienced people talkig on it and actually watching the matches, not to mention I secondary ganon so I know how the match is.

Throwing a pro name in it means nothing. You're misunderstanding the point, its NOT unwinnable but its not freaking even, I'm agruing over the sake of giving the wrong advice.

 

[kenny10]

What would be a good tactic against a good Jigglypuff (except for spacing, duh). I mean because I can't combo Jigglypuff at all. Even Ness's d-throw puts Jigglypuff too high to decently combo.

And sorry bluedeath, but I think Ganon and Ness are even if not slightly disadvantage because of the fact that Ness's fair can shutdown Ganon's approach. But I wouldn't know anymore past what my friend does with Ganon.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

Ness's fair is a good approach, but ganon can get through it with a simple ground based approach or relying on his u-air from below..or simply outspacing him.

It is NOT even. you can get away with saying ness only at a slight disadvantage, but by no means, is it even.

 

[kenny10]

Alright. I can find ways around that. I really don't know much on Ganon (maybe I should go study or something). What about a DJC bair or dair. Would that work on a Ganon?

 

[NES n00b]

I am going to have to agree with bluedeath on this one. Ness is just too light, can be comboed, has worse grabs, is easily edgeguarded (so is Ganon but this doesn't help :x), and can be outspaced.

This is not a good matchup for Ness. Not his worse, but it is not even.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

DJC works against anyone if they are being comboed or open at the time..that question really can't be answered...if you are asking if its a good thing, its a double edged sword due to it allows better combos and quick follow up aerials..but if you get hit, you're screwed.

 

[kenny10]

I'm talking like, priority-wise is a dair or bair a good option. Since I don't know anything about Ganon, I would like to learn.

 

[Ademisk]

I play Emomoney once in a while, and I don't have an enormous amount of trouble against him. I dunno, Ganon's don't bother me much. Their dair is useless against a nice utilt, and generally I can outdodge their attacks and hit them with a good fair or bair. The #1 reason I don't think fighting Ganon is hard is because I can edgeguard him like hell, and Ganondorf's edgeguards are no better, and in fact for the most part worse, than everyone else's.


And I told you I don't know why I don't have a problem fighting Captain Falcon's. I don't beat them a lot, but they also don't **** me, it generally ends up being a tough fight with the Falcon winning due to the fact that he has more/better killing moves.



Also, dude, I was only given three choices. Good, Even, or Bad. I chose one. I will continue to say Ness is even against Ganondorf, because I honestly believe that, despite your insistence otherwise. Captain Falcon does have an advantage against Ness, and I won't argue that, but Ganondorf is too **** slow.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

You aren't playing any good ganons...if you say he isn't that hard.

Unless your ness is like simna or you know the falcon matchup like the back of your hand..or are immune to d-throw knees. Falcon is pretty darn tough. His speed, his shield game, pretty much everything about him is tough. Ness is light too, can't kill falcon vertically..and has no real anti falcon approaches so meh, ness gets screwed hard..once again, not saying its unwinnable, but I'd look at falcon as one of the harder matchups.

And you don't know much about ganon;s edgeguard either by you saying "Ganondorf's edgeguards are no better"...he has one of the best edgeguards in the game, the reverse up-air..and even disregarding that, his b-air comes out fast and stays out for abit..and he can even hop out and fair you and easily make it back.

I made the point about actually getting indepth as far as the matchups go, its not worth the effort with that "good, bad or even" mess, its not that cut and dry.

Regarding kenny10s question, his u-air cuts through your dair very easily....not sure about the bair and fair, I'm pretty sure his will win, don't take my word for it.

 

[thesage]

Ness's fair beats gannon's fair cuz it's more disjointend, not sure about bair though....

Ganon actually does edgeguard Ness pretty well (bair, down b for kicks), but Ness edgeguards ganon way better (If Ganon messes up sweetspottiing spam shffl'd and DjC'd fairs for rapage, I've done this against a lot of good falcons so it works for ganon to). If you're saying that Ganon's f-tilt and jab are better than every option Ness has on the ground...

 

[thebluedeath1000]

Ganon edgeguards ness better, simple fact, has more and better options..and if the falcons are good..why aren't they sweetspotting?

But as far as ness's fair goes, does it easily outreach ganon's fair? I know its disjointed but does it outrange him? his arm does hit pretty far, and even his bair can actually hit you easily without making direct contact (do this alot).

But on as side note since you mentioned it.

Ganon's sucker punch is too good.

 

[kenny10]

I'm pretty sure Ness's fair outranges Ganon's fair. As for Ganon's dair, Ness can just utilt. And I think Ness has a better edgeguard game than Ganon with dtilt, ftilt, PK Fire, DJC nair, SHFFL fair, DJC bair, bat, or even a dair if you have good timing. Besides, good Ness's sweetspot almost constantly so wouldn't it be harder for a Ganon to edgeguard Ness?

EDIT: We should go indepth into these matchups since they're less heard of and not a many people know what to do against them.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

I disagree whole heartedly, ganon edgeguards ness much easier. Ganon sweetspots and avoids nearly all of what ness can do.. while majority of ganon's options stay. Ness has to use pk thunder to sweetspot for the most part, and unless you judge distance perfectly on how ganon can reach you, hes got TONS of time to go out and pop you..or simply interupt..he can do that to you and you'll die easily..but him, hes got weight so its not so easy to take his stocks.

For the record, I've never seen a ness brave enough to up-tilt anything of ganon's.

Ganon kills you either vertically or horizontally in around 4 hits. Ness only real way of killing ganon is horizontially.

Ness can combo ganon but rarely leads to a death hit.

Ganon tech chases you better due to the power of his moves and his options.

Ganon is heavier than you.

Ganon has better recovery, you can agrue that all you want but many threads have determined that ness has the worst recovery due to the way his up-b works, its entirely too easy to screw over.

Ganon has better ground approach options. (this can be debated, mostly biased).

 

[Ademisk]

Yeah, Kenny's right, Ness's edgeguard game against Ganondorf is way better than Ganondorf's against Ness.

And your jab can't even touch a ducking Ness, dtilt spam into ftilt comboooo.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

You are both horribly mistaken, Ganon's up-air exists.

And angled f-tilts if the ness begins crouching alot.

 

[kenny10]

Ganon's uair can't do anything if a Ness sweetspots. His recovery is actually hard to hit Ness out of then you think. And as for Ganon sweetspotting, Ness can dtilt.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

You guys really aren't thinking.

Ganon LEAPS out to interupt you as I have been stating, he doesn't wait for your up-b to finish, thus him having greater edgeguard abilities due to how slow your up-b is. I've did this, many many times. Leap out reverse up-air..equals dead.

And ganon can catch you if you continuously d-tilt due to how ganon's up-b uses the hitbox as part of your body in order for him to grab you, good example of this is how marth's f-smash causes ganon to **** him from the up-b.

 

[Levitas]

Or of course, roll a yoyo off the edge to fsmash, my personal fave.

EDIT: Ness only uses up b FAR away from the edge. Otherwise, a gannon can feel free and jump out to up air the ness or eat the pk thunder. If a gannon can get to the recovering ness before pk thunder2 activates, the ness is doing something wrong.

 

[kenny10]

Ness's up B recovery doesn't take that long.You wouldn't continuously dtilt Ganon. Just if he sweetspots. The moment he doesn't sweetspot, that's when I wavedash back into the bat.

EDIT: Ness's upB takes about as much time as Fox's upB when done right.

 

[brawlpro]

ganon edgeguards the **** out of ness.....

 

[thebluedeath1000]

Ness's up-b takes VERY long. I don't know how you figure that.

Lets look also, eventually you're going to have to kill hit ganon due to the d-tilt n't going to kill him..and eventually hes going to be able to ledgetech and work that to his advantage.

 

[Levitas]

Kenny, the timing for ness's up b is dependant on the angle you shoot yourself at.

 

[kenny10]

That's why I said the minute Ganon doesn't sweetspot, you step back and bat. Ganon's recovery is just as horrible as Ness's (tailwhipping anyone?).

EDIT: I aim all my angles really fast. I just slightly adjust it depending on the angle but it takes about the same time more or less.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

Even if you do the best angle possible, its still plenty of time for ganon to move out and do teh ****.

Ganon can actually live after being interuppted in his upb due to his weight..ness on the other hand, cannot due to he dies so easily.

If edgeguarding ganon was as perfect and flawless as you say, ganon should be able to take a stock each time ness techrolls due to how good ganon tech chases.

We don't go by "perfects"

 

[kenny10]

We can argue about this all day long I bet. Let's just go to a different character and we'll just say Ganon has a slight advantage over Ness.

EDIT: I have an idea. We could turn this into a Ness v. Middle-tier Debate thread.

 

[Levitas]

lol, I love how gannon players don't know ness and ness players don't know gannon. Anyone up for discussing approach options on sheik?

 

[thebluedeath1000]

Ganon has a slight advantage, I could handle that, but you ness's need to start facing better ganons, you people are taking him very very lightly...

as most boards due : (.

And I wouldn't be saying what I know about if I was you., I have a friend who mains ness, I play him regularly with ganon, hes worse than me but I know his options and what he can do in the matchup from occiasionally facing a good ness.

 

[brawlpro]

why don't you guys ask someone like UmbreonMow?

 

[thebluedeath1000]

Ness against shiek? I won't touch that, now that I couldn't say much on.