Let's talk about our attitudes and Captain Awesum

[TheHypnotoad]

Screw the faceless spectators on twitch. Smash is is first and foremost a community of competitors, 99.9% of whom are amateurs pay their own way to nationals. The prizes they win come out of their friends and supporters pockets. This whole thread is not about how you shouldn't boo your hometown football team's rival, but how we should act towards our peers. If you're in the crowd at EVO or CEO it's probably because you got knocked out of bracket. If we lose viewers or hype by taking steps to make the community less toxic for competitors who cares? Viewers don't pay into brackets at your weeklies or regional, viewers don't foster community growth, and the vast majority of viewers have never played smash outside of their bedroom. The idea that the competitive smash will die out unless we promote it like Pro Wrestling is nonsense.

Also the idea that booing is a super common occurrence in sports is dead wrong. Not only is the frequency of booing super variable at the pro level depending on the sport(aka tennis vs the NFL), it's also unbelievably rare in individual sports, and borderline unheard of in amateur tournaments. I dare you to go to a highschool tennis or golf tournament and boo some kid whose playstyle you don't like. See how people react when you assert your rights as a spectator.

This isn't an amateur tournament, this is an international featuring the best players in the world. Your analogy is asinine.

And the people booing are not spectators, they are the ones in the audience who actually attended the tournament, the ones who are responsible for keeping the scene alive.

 

[Gibbs]

This isn't an amateur tournament, this is an international featuring the best players in the world. Your analogy is asinine.

And the people booing are not spectators, they are the ones in the audience who actually attended the tournament, the ones who are responsible for keeping the scene alive.

Competitive smash is literally the dictionary definition of amateur. Even "pro" smashers with sponsorships are only given a pittance by their sponsors, mostly covering travel/lodging. The only sponsored players at EVO in smash 4 (to my knowledge) were the Panda Global crew and maybe Wizzrobe. When someone can fill an entire 32 man bracket with players who can pay all their bills with smash alone, then we can talk about a pro/amatuer divide. Almost all of Zero's (not sponsored) and Armada's tournament winnings comes directly from the pockets of other smashers. EVO was just a really really big weekly in a pretty dress as far as smash was concerned.

Even the "pro" smashers can't make a living by just being amazing at the game. When Mango's streaming and Zero's constant youtube content creation is absolutely necessary for them to keep a roof over their heads they really can't be readily compared to other sports or even e-sports professionals. Can you even imagine if Lionel Messi or Aaron Rodgers had to have donation drives to cover the cost of airfare.

It's not just money that differentiates amateur from professional play. Tennis pros don't have to compete against highschoolers round 1 at the Wimbledon, but if I can afford a plane ticket and the registration fee I can play Mango, Armada, Leffen, or PPMD in pools. When 99% of the competitive field has never in their entire life been paid by a third party to play smash, then it is an amateur event. Plain and simple.

 

[Pyr]

This isn't an amateur tournament, this is an international featuring the best players in the world. Your analogy is asinine.

And the people booing are not spectators, they are the ones in the audience who actually attended the tournament, the ones who are responsible for keeping the scene alive.

100% sure that the people keeping the game alive aren't the .1% at the tournament itself, but the viewers. The tournament goers definitely help, but it's very ignorant to think they hold the majority on keeping the game alive.

 

[Xenoblade Hero]

As someone who's part of another competitive community (Pokemon VGC Championships, I've been playing pretty much since the UK format changed to Swiss) I thought I would throw my two cents in as a new-ish Smash player who isn't really involved in the international community but watched the EVO event.

In the Pokemon VGC circuit the community started off very relaxed and friendly, and to a degree the local community has stayed like that. Internationally however there seems to be a lot of elitism for certain areas of the community that didn't initially exist. This year in particular people online (even some of the online moderators who should be setting an example) seem to think it's totally acceptable to pick on other players because of the fact that they come from Europe and Australia, which doesn't have the funding from tcpi (the company that funds the VGC circuit) to expand the circuit yet. Despite all the difficulties other players go through, representatives from Europe, Korea and Australia made it to the top 8 of the World Championships which shows internationally everyone is well on par. Many in the community still seem to call this a fluke though, despite the fact that a UK player who has been playing for years got runner-up in one division of the game and Sejun from Korea won the entire thing in Masters, the largest age division bracket. Additionally there seems to be division for the choices people make in their team building...

You get called out by the community for using Landorus-T, one of the most powerful forces in the metagame, but you also get called out for using something not used as much such as, say, Mega Beedrill because it's seen as not having a role. In Smash Bros, you can get called out for using a top tier like Diddy pre-patch (see ZeRo) but you also get called out for someone who's "campy" and can stall out some of these characters. See the problem here? It's getting to the point where nothing is acceptable any more, and people just find it acceptable to bully other people on any basis.

I can see a lot of attitudes have been picked up in Smash Bros too. Bullying someone who is playing to win in a tournament with a large prize pool is ridiculous - you are not playing to entertain an audience, rather the audience is coming to see what is the best of the best and that is a privilege in itself. Whether Captain was making a metagame call (seeing as it took a while for someone to beat this Villager that was playing so, so badly) or exploiting game mechanics, surely the people who lose need to access where they went wrong and that they can improve instead of pointing elsewhere. The people are the venue should have been kicked out because they were harassing a player during a set which will affect their gameplay. How is a new-ish player like me supposed to enter a community where I'm essentially judged for any misplay I do, any character I pick? This is all starting to become rather worrying and the future of multiple competitive games won't get any better unless the community decides to do something about it

 

[TheHypnotoad]

If we lose viewers or hype by taking steps to make the community less toxic for competitors who cares? Viewers don't pay into brackets at your weeklies or regional, viewers don't foster community growth, and the vast majority of viewers have never played smash outside of their bedroom.

100% sure that the people keeping the game alive aren't the .1% at the tournament itself, but the viewers. The tournament goers definitely help, but it's very ignorant to think they hold the majority on keeping the game alive.

You guys are both arguing the same thing, and yet your arguments are completely contradictory. Which is the more important one, then? Players or viewers? I don't want to argue against a strawman, so I want to make sure I know what your argument actually is.

 

[Gibbs]

I think we just disagree about the importance of online viewership. My points are mostly directed at in venue spectator and player conduct. Our first priority as a community should be how we treat each other as competitors and peers. We should take a clear stance as a community that we will not embrace those who aggressively harass, heckle and single out individual members for abuse over in game things.

The occasional boo, or trash talk (in the right venue like salty suite), or emotional reaction of a crowd mid match is not what I'm concerned about, though I do think that we shouldn't encourage it in all contexts and be aware that the line between abuse and good spirited fan engagement can be rather thin.

If trying to embrace this rather lax code of conduct on harassment results in an environment that isn't as viewer friendly I don't care. If smash can't grow as an esport on the strength it gameplay without becoming some sort of WWE narrative driven mock sport with easily identified heroes and villains, then I would rather stream numbers never left the low thousands. If EVO scale competitive smash's viability is directly tied to letting people act like stream monsters in person at events, then personally I would rather competitive smash die.

 

[Meister Zeigler]

I agree with them on hating "ledge-stallers", it's basically for people who can't play the game, but he shouldn't be immaturely heckled in a public setting for it.

 

[dbwithlemon]

People don't deserve personal attacks for how they play video games, period.

That said, if you play like such an *******, you're probably an *******.

What!?
How does your mind work to say people don't deserve personal attacks, then you follow up with a personal attack?

I'm glad you make yourself feel better by standing up for someone before you casually toss them back to the wolves.

 

[1FC0]

Competitive smash is literally the dictionary definition of amateur.

What dictionary are you using?

I agree with them on hating "ledge-stallers", it's basically for people who can't play the game, but he shouldn't be immaturely heckled in a public setting for it.

Maybe ledge-stalling is for people who can not play your version of the game where ledge stalling seems to be banned but since Smash 4 allows it anyone who can consistently win with ledge stalling is a good player by definition.

 

[Sodo]

I can see a lot of attitudes have been picked up in Smash Bros too. Bullying someone who is playing to win in a tournament with a large prize pool is ridiculous - you are not playing to entertain an audience, rather the audience is coming to see what is the best of the best and that is a privilege in itself. Whether Captain was making a metagame call (seeing as it took a while for someone to beat this Villager that was playing so, so badly) or exploiting game mechanics, surely the people who lose need to access where they went wrong and that they can improve instead of pointing elsewhere. The people are the venue should have been kicked out because they were harassing a player during a set which will affect their gameplay. How is a new-ish player like me supposed to enter a community where I'm essentially judged for any misplay I do, any character I pick? This is all starting to become rather worrying and the future of multiple competitive games won't get any better unless the community decides to do something about it

This section of your post right here is spot on, and I couldn't agree more. The game evolves by people of different playstyles/strategies/mindsets playing each other. If everyone played how the average spectator/non-competitor wanted to play, we'd have two hyper-aggro Falcons trying to style on each other in every single match. Variety is the spice of life, and that applies to Smash. Sure, defensive play isn't "ideal" to the spectator, but if I'm playing for money then I could literally care less what any viewers thought. Don't want to watch? Don't. The players will continue to play without you.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

What!?
How does your mind work to say people don't deserve personal attacks, then you follow up with a personal attack?

I'm glad you make yourself feel better by standing up for someone before you casually toss them back to the wolves.

I didn't stand up for him, and I didn't make a personal attack. So, there are two things that are wrong.

But to clarify, here's what I mean: even if you're an asshole, it doesn't mean you deserve to be followed around, harassed and generally bullied.

 

[dbwithlemon]

I didn't stand up for him, and I didn't make a personal attack. So, there are two things that are wrong.

But to clarify, here's what I mean: even if you're an *******, it doesn't mean you deserve to be followed around, harassed and generally bullied.

When you single someone out and call them a derogatory name, that's a personal attack.
Regardless of whether the attack is deserved, it's an attack.

If someone punches you and you punch back, you still hit them. It's arguably justified, but you still did it.

People don't deserve personal attacks for how they play video games, period.

That said, if you play like such an *******, you're probably an *******.

You didn't explicity say "Captain awesum is a ______", but you implied it. An indirect attack is still an attack.

Additionally, you're judging him by saying his playstyle isn't good.
Regardless of whether you like it or enjoy watching it, this is a competitive game and he found a strategy that can win. Clearly it wasn't undefeatable.
A good player can beat any play style, if someone gets beat by something like that, then they aren't as good as they think. And no amount of rationalization about it being "cheap" can change the fact that they lost.
I believe the smash community sums it up as "git gud".

 

[tecmo]

Yup, he was making enemies everywhere.

Storytime (I wasn't there):
Apparently a group from SoCal saw terry get up from a setup and thought he left his controller. It turned out to be cpt awesomes who returned to get it, they understandably wanted to confirm with terry. After confirming if wasn't Terry's, cpt awesome got his controller and went on a salty and insult filled tirade. Socals players laughed it off, then later heckled him during his set vs Larry (maybe other sets too). Stories I'm hearing seem to confirm he has a bad attitude.

Trolling used to be 1000x worse in smash then it is now when it was more grassroots for people even w/o bad attitudes playing an unpopular style.

This doesn't take away anything from the posts here, but I did hear from several players that Captain Awesum was a less-than-kind player himself. In particular, I heard he had some vitriolic words towards K9, a well known hot-head, after beating him. Something along the lines of "You're one of the best in California? You're nothing" or something like that. AFTER beating K9.

If these things are true, then he had it coming. If you are disrespectful to other players and their property, then don't act all shocked when they are disrespectful back. In my opinion this justifies everything the crowd did. (if this happened of course not sure as I wasn't there.)

 

[cot(θ)]

100% sure that the people keeping the game alive aren't the .1% at the tournament itself, but the viewers. The tournament goers definitely help, but it's very ignorant to think they hold the majority on keeping the game alive.

That doesn't make sense in the context of smash. Our spectators are our competitors. I wouldn't be surprised if more than 99.9% of smash spectators are also tournament goers, and Evo is open for any of them to compete if they want.

Contrary to what you're "100% certain" of, the players are the sole force keeping the game alive. This is not football, which has a huge following of non-player spectators. In smash, the number of non-player spectators is negligible.

 

[Pyr]

That doesn't make sense in the context of smash. Our spectators are our competitors. I wouldn't be surprised if more than 99.9% of smash spectators are also tournament goers, and Evo is open for any of them to compete if they want.

Contrary to what you're "100% certain" of, the players are the sole force keeping the game alive. This is not football, which has a huge following of non-player spectators. In smash, the number of non-player spectators is negligible.

You misunderstood. I was saying that the few people that actually go to tournaments aren't the majority stockholders of this game's future, the players that don't, and the people watching at home, are. They'll contribute infinitely more then we will. It'd be silly to think that someone who doesn't play the game would watch it and support it. =p

 

[S_B]

Whatever happened to "Hate the game, not the player?"

Blame Sakurai for creating a game so focused on defense, not people who play the game to the best of their ability which just may involve tons of defense.

 

[LanceKing2200]

If anyone is interested, CaptAwesum will be playing in a customs off tournament today in MA. I believe this is going to be his first streamed non-customs event since before EVO, so if you want to see how he performs without them today is your chance.

Reddit thread HERE