Let's talk about 3.5 Pit

Lopopka

The Wizards Assistant
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#81
Would you like to start it? I'm currently on a linux computer which apparently doesn't support skype chat. I think my android phone can though. I just have no idea how to start one up.
Yeah most smart phones can use skype so you probably should be able to. I'd love to just need to add you as a contact first, would that be the same name as on here?
 

Pitzer

The Young Lion
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#84
I feel like 3.5 Pit feels alright to me aside from like dtilt being slowed to all hell, I honestly think if they increased his standing grab range he'd be way better than he is now. Aside from that I think he takes a lot of work to get rolling but once he starts getting the momentum he's really strong. Just been messing around with him a bit. I'm actually a Roy/Marth/Link main.
 

$Osiaj$

Smash Cadet
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#86
What about Pit's z-air? It seems pretty useful as combo starter, but I've looked around and nobody talks about it at all.

EDIT: I just saw that I'm not alone.
 
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Lopopka

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#87
What about Pit's z-air? It seems pretty useful as combo starter, but I've looked around and nobody talks about it at all.

EDIT: I just saw that I'm not alone.
I love his gliding z-air, I dont really know that much about comboing with it since I use it to recover back to the stage against some opponents because its a really good hit-box. I mean you could follow it up with uair or up-smash if its hit right x)
 

Lopopka

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#88
What about Pit's z-air? It seems pretty useful as combo starter, but I've looked around and nobody talks about it at all.

EDIT: I just saw that I'm not alone.
I love his gliding z-air, I dont really know that much about comboing with it since I use it to recover back to the stage against some opponents because its a really good hit-box. I mean you could follow it up with uair or up-smash if its hit right x)
 

Sharkz

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#89
So I had heard in the past that Pit had a chaingrab on Fox with Uthrow. Since I don't normally use Pit in the Fox mu, I wasn't sure myself. So I was in the lab for a bit today messing with chaingrabs with Uthrow on Fox. I tried the different extremes of DI, and here's what I found out: (CHECK OUT THE TLDR AT THE BOTTOM. This is just a bunch of technical jibber jabber that doesn't really need to be said. I was just bored and tested it/wrote it.)

First, general knowledge on Pit's UThrow:

  • When completely fresh, Uthrow deals 8% damage. When completely stale, Uthrow does 5% damage. It can also deal 6-7% in between being completely fresh and completely stale.

  • Pit's Uthrow cannot be acted out of until frame 45. Meaning you can input a command on frame 44 and it will come out on frame 45.

  • You cannot immediately grab from the Uthrow animation unless you either pivot or jump-cancel grab. So if they DI in front of Pit, you must jump cancel grab. If they DI behind Pit, you must pivot grab (or dash grab if Fox's % is high enough).

  • I don't understand why, but if you want to pivot jump-cancel a grab out of Uthrow, you must wait until 2 frames after the pivot has begun. I don't know why this is, since you don't have to wait that extra frame in a normal jump cancelled pivot grab, but that's how it works here. So if you want to do a jump cancelled pivot grab out of Uthrow, it will come out on frame 47 while a normal pivot grab out of Uthrow will come out on frame 46. This is, of course, assuming you are frame perfect in all your inputs. This really isn't that important except for a few frame perfect chaingrabs which are only possible by bad DI from your opponent.

  • ^ In other words, if Fox DI's in front of you, you have two options. You can input grab on frame 45 OR you can input a jump on frame 44 and input a grab on frame 45. If you input a normal grab on frame 44, you'll just end up shielding. If he lands DIRECTLY behind you, do a normal pivot grab. If he DI's far behind you (which is optimal DI for Fox), it won't work, but it may turn into a tech chase.
  • Standing grab comes out on frame 7. Jump cancelled grab comes out on frame 8 (because it's just normal grab + 1 frame of jump squat). Normal running grab comes out on frame 10. Boost grab comes out on frame 11.
If Fox has no DI at all:

The uthrow chaingrab on Fox starts at 35%. That is, he's at 35% AFTER the damage dealt from the uthrow. Meaning it starts on a grab at 27% with completely fresh uthrow before the uthrow damage.

From 35% to 38% the chaingrab has to be completely frame perfect. Uthrow lasts 44 frames before you can act out of it. So on frame 45 is when you must turn around. Grab must come out on frame 46. Fox can tech on frame 47 which means grab must come out on frame 46. Starting at 39% gives you a two-frame window. It only becomes more lenient as the % goes higher.

If Fox DI's in front of Pit:

In this case, the chaingrab can actually start at 34%. This is frame perfect at this % and you have the choice of either inputting jc grab on frame 44 or standing grab on frame 45. This is about as poor DI as it gets for Fox. I didn't do any extensive testing on this, but I believe if Fox continues DI'ing in front of Pit that the chaingrab can continue until around the mid-90%'s or even higher. The only time I'd ever expect Fox to do this is right around the 35-45% range just to fake out the Pit player cause I don't believe you can grab it on reaction at those %'s.

If Fox DI's behind Pit:

It doesn't work :(


TLDR: This really isn't a true chaingrab unless the Fox player doesn't DI at all or DI's in front of Pit. If he doesn't DI, it starts if Fox is at 35% after the throw. If he DI's in front on Pit it starts at 34%. If he correctly DI's behind Pit, it doesn't work at all and turns into a tech chase situation which is the same thing that dthrow achieves. I'm assuming this was known by a lot of Pit players already, but unfortunately no one shares there knowledge with this character, so I figured I'd just go ahead and post my findings here.

Edit: I actually found out that the beat use for uthrow is for a di mixup. Check out two posts below for more details.
 
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Sharkz

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#90
On a much more useful note, I'm going to preach again about the validity of dthrow at the ledge>footstool. This isn't just some jank mess, this is a legit tool in Pit's arsenal. While it can be DI'd away from, the proper DI to get away from it may put your opponent at a bad position offstage. So even just the threat of it can give you the advantage.

Here's a list of the fall speed/weight for each character in PM.

For throws, we only care about fall speed (which is on the Y axis in this illustration). Around the 2.0 and higher mark is what we're looking for (2.4+ works the best). If you can grab them near the ledge (usually under 20%) and dthrow and they DI in or have no DI at all it's a free footstool for Pit. Don't jump, just run of the edge and mash footstool. If you're close to the ledge, but not right on it, this can also work on opponents that DI out. For some characters here that's an insta-ko. Once your opponent recognizes that threat, they will probably start DIing out which leaves them open for a dropzone fair, dropdown>jumping dair (that could spike if you angle it correctly), or whatever else you may find.

This is one of my favorite little tricks that Pit has and I hope to see more of y'all using it. I've gotten many kills in tournaments in both singles and teams from this. I urge you guys to at least test it out and see if you like it as well.
 
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Sharkz

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#91
A followup to the previous post about the u throw chaingrab:

So I was thinking, if the proper DI for Pit's dthrow is DI in the direction that Pit is facing, and if the proper DI for uthrow is behind Pit, then isn't dthrow/dthrow a DI mixup? Sure enough it is. If you're di'ing for one, you have poor di for the other. And even if they guess correctly, they're still in a position to be tech chased. I tried this out yesterday in friendlies with a training partner ofone who mains Falcon and it worked wonders. I'm not sure if this just works on extreme fastfallers or not. I have some more testing to do for that.
 

dude it's raining

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I feel like 3.5 Pit feels alright to me aside from like dtilt being slowed to all hell, I honestly think if they increased his standing grab range he'd be way better than he is now. Aside from that I think he takes a lot of work to get rolling but once he starts getting the momentum he's really strong. Just been messing around with him a bit. I'm actually a Roy/Marth/Link main.
According to the PM stats list, Pit's grab isn't too bad. It's between Sheik's and Puff's. Top half of the non-tethers.
 

Sharkz

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So I got this off in tournament, and I was so happy about it, because it was a perfect combination of my two posts above containing DI mixups and footstools.

First I DI mixup the Falcon with uthrow because he was DI'ing for dthrow. I regrab, then dthrow and he DI's for uthrow. It gives me a perfect footstool opportunity, and I get a 0-death off of two throws.

http://gfycat.com/EminentQuarrelsomeGrub

(Sorry for the dropped frames, apparently the video file was corrupted.)
 

Lopopka

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So I got this off in tournament, and I was so happy about it, because it was a perfect combination of my two posts above containing DI mixups and footstools.

First I DI mixup the Falcon with uthrow because he was DI'ing for dthrow. I regrab, then dthrow and he DI's for uthrow. It gives me a perfect footstool opportunity, and I get a 0-death off of two throws.

http://gfycat.com/EminentQuarrelsomeGrub

(Sorry for the dropped frames, apparently the video file was corrupted.)
Sharkz that was so crisp!
 
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I'm pretty inexperienced with Pit but I'm interested in learning him, especially with the 3.6 announcement—I feel like some of the massive nerfs dished out are going to be scaled back, which certainly would include Pit (right?). I've used Pit effectively to trunch PK kid mains across the state already, and I'm really excited to learn more. Add me to the skype group @dayofthegreatleap
 
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Gooz

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Ive been Avid wolf main for a year now but back in the 3.02 days I had a strong pit secondary, but when 3.5 dropped i ditched pit thinking they ruined the charecter. Ive recently been putting time into playing him again and Im having a blast. After some adjustments im not having any problems getting some hefty combo strings. I also cant get enough of his spike its really not hard to hit and super safe to try offstage because even if u miss the spike u still get a nice hit. Playing wolf, i have a strong bait and punish game which i think transfers well to 3.5 pit.

I have a capture card coming in on monday so I will be uploading videos
 

Sharkz

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Anyone been using Pit in any recent tournaments? I haven't been able to enter as many PM tournaments recently, but I'm hoping to go to Shuffle VII if I can get the weekend off.
 

Lopopka

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Anyone been using Pit in any recent tournaments? I haven't been able to enter as many PM tournaments recently, but I'm hoping to go to Shuffle VII if I can get the weekend off.
OH i just did, I went mk to but i used pit against a really good puff player and played pit in dubs!! a vid of dubs should be up soon!
 

robosteven

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With the exception of d-tilt and f-smash, I think Pit's perfect the way he is. The up-b might need a little tweaking on hitboxes (because sweetspots are hella strange), and I'd like to see down-b buffed a little bit, but those four moves are the only problems I see him having.

Designwise, I think Pit's great.
 

Sharkz

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With the exception of d-tilt and f-smash, I think Pit's perfect the way he is. The up-b might need a little tweaking on hitboxes (because sweetspots are hella strange), and I'd like to see down-b buffed a little bit, but those four moves are the only problems I see him having.

Designwise, I think Pit's great.
I pretty much agree here. The four moves you listed are the only ones that still bother me. If those were tweaked a bit, I'd be extremely pleased.
 

Kipcom

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Picked up Pit a couple weeks after 3.5 released, but only just started playing him seriously within the last few weeks.

He's extremely fun! I just really like his movement and the concept of his moveset (even if they were way better in 3.0, but I never played him in that iteration of PM so it doesn't matter. Honestly though, I don't really think he's good. He feels kinda ehhhh right now. Pit also feels like one of those characters where he has like, one good thing (regrabs and tech chases from down throw) and it's just you doing that for most of the match.
Pit's neutral feels extremely weak, and I think the nerfs to the arrows and down tilt were a bit overboard.
I'm already playing the worst PM version of this character and I doubt he'll be getting anymore major nerfs from here on out, plus I have lots of fun playing him, so at least I know I have nothing to lose in the future.

I got some Pit vids coming soon, so hopefully I can get some serious critique from one of you guys.
 
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