Let's not let history repeat itself

[Batousai]

This is a great article. The writer objectively analyzes Sm4sh and points out the stupid things that can, and will, happen on both sides of the inevitable division between Sm4sh and Melee players.

Let's learn from the past, so that we don't make the absurdity of history repeat itself.

http://www.meleeitonme.com/on-the-future-and-the-repeat-of-history/

 

[AirFair]

I think people need to give this a look. I don't think anyone wants the community's image to form like that.

 

[WinterShorts]

This is a great article. The writer objectively analyzes Sm4sh and points out the stupid things that can, and will, happen on both sides of the inevitable division between Sm4sh and Melee players.

Let's learn from the past, so that we don't make the absurdity of history repeat itself.

http://www.meleeitonme.com/on-the-future-and-the-repeat-of-history/

I'll say it's definitely a good article. That I'll say first.

Second, yeah. People do need to stop bickering about hate-game topics like this (even though I've ironically created threads involving "game" vs. "game" threads but by this point I've learned that at least each Smash game will have it's purpose, even Brawl despite my next sentence). Smash 4, even speaking about the 3DS version only, is way better than Brawl. No more Meta-Knight Vs. Ice Climbers matches, because the roster is balanced and almost every character has something to offer, so matches should be much more different.

I mean people are playing different Smash games for different environments for fun. They play Melee for fast-paced action, despite the unbalanced roster. They also play Smash 4 for a much easier time getting into the metagame with a balanced roster, despite the slower and defensive gameplay. With that said, Smash 4 and Melee should serve at least 1 important fun factor to a Smash fan depending on the option. Ugh, these people will never learn........sadly meaning I'll never learn, apparently.

 

[LunarWingCloud]

That was an excellent read. See, If more people would understand this, we'd have more unity, in our community. Start appreciating what makes each game what it is, instead of clinging to your one game and talking down everything else. I see this in other communities especially in the console wars itself.

 

[WinterShorts]

That was an excellent read. See, If more people would understand this, we'd have more unity, in our community. Start appreciating what makes each game what it is, instead of clinging to your one game and talking down everything else. I see this in other communities especially in the console wars itself.

Oh god the console wars. I'm thanking god that Smash conversations aren't like that. Smash conversations on which game is better, Melee or Brawl, where I live, is a question only brought up rarely if not never. People never shut the f*ck up about the XBox One or the PS4 and Call of Duty is like the only thing they ever mention. That was a conversation that happened EVERY DAY when I was in high school.

I guess that's like one of the only things I'm glad about when not being near such a competitive smash community, despite it being one of my dreams. I haven't experienced any real-life heated conversations that argue which Smash game is better, but seriously, I want everyone to just enjoy their wii or wii U and stop saying it sucks. You're just annoying if you do.

 

[Custom]

They play Melee for fast-paced action, despite the unbalanced roster. They also play Smash 4 for a much easier time getting into the metagame with a balanced roster

I don't know that no Meta Knight level characters justifies saying that 4 is balanced, especially this early. Once match ups are more defined certain characters will show their blatant advantage over others, especially in a game that historically was "balanced" to 4 player free-for-all with items.

 

[WinterShorts]

I don't know that no Meta Knight level characters justifies saying that 4 is balanced, especially this early. Once match ups are more defined certain characters will show their blatant advantage over others, especially in a game that historically was "balanced" to 4 player free-for-all with items.

I guess you have a good point, but even in the long run of Smash 4, it should at least have more high tier characters than in SSBM.

 

[BSP]

I have zero faith in the community acting mature in the upcoming events. I've already seen quite a lot of dissatisfaction with Smash 4 in my state, and it's only going to get worse with the inevitable splits that are approaching.


I wouldn't say the author objectively analyzes Smash 4 for the most part. I still think most of the problems stated about the game are based on the fact that Melee is the only way for Smash. I was told that this point was only used by Smash 4 diehards to defend the game, but I still don't see how it's an incorrect view. If you think Smash = Melee, of course 4 is bad, but Melee isn’t the only way to play the game.

Don't get me wrong: Melee is an amazing game. Is it the best? Maybe. Definitely if you heavily value execution and game speed in regards to competitive merit.

Smash 4 is not perfect by a long shot and has some things that could be removed to improve competitive play. For example, I see no place for rage and I think rolls in general are too good. Lucario's aura gimmick is silly and so is Little Mac getting a near OHKO for getting hit. All obvious glitches and infinites are bad too.

That being said, I feel like the game did a good amount of things right, but those get ignored or downplayed because of Melee. I go over what I think is debatable in the collapse.

Spoiler

For example, the article brings up:


1. It's too slow/Games take too long


I must have missed the memo that said a game has to be extremely fast paced to be good/competitive. I understand that not everyone enjoys slower paced games, but I don't think this point has anything to do with competitive merit.


I guess it's a fair point when bringing up viewership, in which case, I agree. The casual stream monster will probably find Smash 4 boring after they see Melee . If it's really that much of a problem, I guess just stream top 8 of the game, although I think that's being unfair to the competitors who actually get up and make the effort to travel.


If this becomes a physical problem with venue times, lower the stock count. I doubt it'll get that far though.


2. No/not enough combos


Also missed the memo that said a game has to have combos to be competitive. Combos in Smash do show a high level of skill since they require a player to have enough knowledge about their character's movement and attacks, the opposing character's weight and most probable DI, proper execution, and so on in order to successfully complete their combos.


However, they aren't integral to showing who's a better player. They certainly help, but they aren't required. I think Brawl showed this. There was a clear level of top players who were on a different level from everyone else, even though the game didn't have even half as much of the execution needed for melee. That being said, combos never hurt, unless they're infinites, but that's a different topic.


Plus, I still think it's too early to see how the combo/string/offensive game in general will pan out. Yes, the author did bring this up, but come on. We can't even play with real controllers on a single console yet, and it's been a month. Once people can actually control their characters, pressuring people to airdodge into the ground (which means a free hit afterwards) is going to be simple, and retreating to the ledge is a much more dangerous option in general since there's only one round of invincibility this go-around.


2.5 - there's an inherent extension of problem 2 -> more emphasis on the neutral game


I don't understand why this is bad. I find the neutral game to be the most interesting part of matches. In most of the street fighter IV matches I see, 50% of the time is spent with the characters walking back and forth, having fireball wars, and footsies. IMO, this makes the combos, corner situations, etc. that much more interesting because of how one player had to open the other up.


I don't understand more emphasis on the neutral game is a huge problem in Smash 4. Yes, it does lead to slower and less explosive matches, but my sentiments on that are in point 1 and 2. Is it boring to some people? Yes. Does that make the game uncompetitive? I'm not seeing how.


In Smash 64, until someone lands that first clean hit, the game emphasizes footsies a good bit too, but I never see people bashing it.


3. VI


There's usually the complaint that VI helps the defender to escape combos. You know what else does that? SDI and DI, and the former was nerfed heavily in Smash 4. Crouch cancelling sometimes allows attackers to get punished for going offensive, so good thing it didn’t return.


There's the complaint that it helps survivability. That was half the point of DI in Melee, the other half being to increase the possibility of escaping combos.


VI instead of DI is beneficial to the attacker in some cases. Since the defending player can't directly alter their knockback trajectory, they can't, for instance, cause your move that's designed to send you horizontally/vertically to send themselves to the upper corners instead.


This is how it was best put:


In Melee: Oh wow, you can control your trajectory when you get launched in order to help escape combos and survive! Cool trick!


In Smash 4: What? You can somewhat alter your trajectory when you get launch in order to live longer and attempt to get out of combos? This is bad.

That's my take on the more debatable problems of the game. Of course, being someone who played Brawl, I've got my own bias too. However, I still think the game gets too much flack for trying something different. Melee has a great formula for smash, but it is not the only way. Of course, the vocal minority will not acknowledge and keep this silly thing going.

The split is going to happen, and there will be wars. There's a small minority in the melee community that doesn't want other smash games to succeed, as other comments pointed out. It's a shame and a waste of time, but it is inevitable.

 

[EPsilon933]

About the inconsistency of knockback; Just learn the rage mechanic. It's not random. Figure out the formula to learn when moves should start KOing or when knock back will be short enough to allow comboing

About VI; Isn't it similar to DI? Both make knock back inconsistent, but not random

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Hey please everyone shut up about Melee's game speed being such a critical part of its success. You could slow the whole physics engine down to .75 of its current speed and melee would still have more options in just about every physics state, longer combos, and a higher-stakes offstage game than the subsequent installments. I really don't like melee fans being painted as amped up speed freaks who might as well be playing brawl at x2 speed. Its disingenuous and doesn't capture what is really going on with Melee's competitive depth and popularity.

 

[GhettoNinja]

I agree with article for the most part except from what I can tell the main difference from then and now is that melee players dont really hate SM4SH for I mean obviously there gonna stick with Melee which is fine there's room for both communities and as long as both sides respect each other things should go smoothly. Besides from my honest experience there's a lot more Melee vs Pm arguments then of SM4SH vs Melee. Then again I'm slightly bias due to the fact that the smash Documentry is what really pushed me into Competitive smash so there's no real way for me to hate melee.

 

[EarthboundHero]

All great games but I feel like SM4SH isnt as fun as PM. Seeing as anyone can win

 

[Praxis]

I'm the one who wrote the article, and want to say something in retrospect.

I feel like I wrote too much analysis of the game (especially pre-launch), which is bad for one simple reason: It has caused some people who read it to focus on arguing or nitpicking either mistakes or things they disagree with in the analysis, instead of focusing on the message. (EDIT: @ BSP , I appreciate you putting your disagreements in a collapsible post instead of making it in to a huge debate like I saw in some other discussion threads.)


The message is this: If you come from Melee, you may not like Smash 4. If you hated Brawl, there's a good chance you won't like Smash 4.


But: if you behave in the way Melee players did towards Brawl players when the game launched and the flood of Brawl noobs came in, you will create a generation of players who see Melee players as a bunch of stuck-up jerks.



Attacking Brawl at every opportunity did not prevent Brawl from being bigger than Melee for several years. All it did was make a lot of Brawl players less interested in learning to play Melee, when a supportive and kind community might have caused people to "switch up" from Brawl to Melee. I know many to this day that didn't pick up Melee because of their perception of how Melee players are, and can name 3-4 in my own small community in Eastern WA who were more willing to quit until Smash 4 came out than play Melee because of their recollection of the community.

 

[MuraRengan]

I honestly don't think you have to worry about Melee players hating on this game. I was here when Brawl came out, and I was vehemently against the game as a whole, but the years that have passed helped me to understand that Melee was a beautiful accident and that players shouldn't expect Nintendo to cater to them by making a game on the same level of competitive depth. And considering that most people understand the history of Brawl and Melee, I'd say that even the newer Melee players feel that way as well. This is going to sound incredibly smug, but at this point pretty much everybody, Brawl players included, knows that Melee is the best competitive smash game. Melee players have pretty much resigned themselves to knowing that they were a part of the best smash experience and are just glad they got to be apart of a once in a lifetime experience. Melee players expect that the new smash game will not be as deep, because Nintendo's priority isn't competitive depth. Pretty much every die-hard Melee fan i know feels this way.

 

[GhettoNinja]

I'm the one who wrote the article, and want to say something in retrospect.

I feel like I wrote too much analysis of the game (especially pre-launch), which is bad for one simple reason: It has caused some people who read it to focus on arguing or nitpicking either mistakes or things they disagree with in the analysis, instead of focusing on the message. (EDIT: @ BSP , I appreciate you putting your disagreements in a collapsible post instead of making it in to a huge debate like I saw in some other discussion threads.)


The message is this: If you come from Melee, you may not like Smash 4. If you hated Brawl, there's a good chance you won't like Smash 4.


But: if you behave in the way Melee players did towards Brawl players when the game launched and the flood of Brawl noobs came in, you will create a generation of players who see Melee players as a bunch of stuck-up jerks.



Attacking Brawl at every opportunity did not prevent Brawl from being bigger than Melee for several years. All it did was make a lot of Brawl players less interested in learning to play Melee, when a supportive and kind community might have caused people to "switch up" from Brawl to Melee. I know many to this day that didn't pick up Melee because of their perception of how Melee players are, and can name 3-4 in my own small community in Eastern WA who were more willing to quit until Smash 4 came out than play Melee because of their recollection of the community.

Well hopefully the smash documentry 2 thats coming out next year will at least address this a little bit sense it mainly focuses on brawl(also this will hopefully level out the huge gravitation towards melee that the first one caused) plus I really doubt there ever be another split in the community like that because melee players will be melee players and brawl players will be brawl players etc. And now that people realize you don't just have to move on to the next smash because its the new smash that kind of resentment won't likely appear again.

 

[Praxis]

Well hopefully the smash documentry 2 thats coming out next year will at least address this a little bit sense it mainly focuses on brawl(also this will hopefully level out the huge gravitation towards melee that the first one caused) plus I really doubt there ever be another split in the community like that because melee players will be melee players and brawl players will be brawl players etc. And now that people realize you don't just have to move on to the next smash because its the new smash that kind of resentment won't likely appear again.

I haven't heard anything about the new Smash documentary focusing on Brawl. It's about Armada, a top Melee player.

 

[GhettoNinja]

I haven't heard anything about the new Smash documentary focusing on Brawl. It's about Armada, a top Melee player.

Really? I could swore I read somewhere that this one would focus on brawl, sorry.

 

[Massive]

There will never be another schism like melee/brawl because melee players lost trust in Sakurai after that.

We viewed brawl as almost a literal game messiah. At that point there were only 2 smash games, and each one was objectively better than the last, so hopes were incredibly high. When it didn't pan out as we wanted, it made a lot of really awesome people stop playing entirely, and that was an awful time for smash.

When smash 4 was released most melee players/veterans have received it with an "it's ok" temprement. There's still some novelty there, but all of our hate was used up on brawl. It's live and let live at this point.

I am a little worried that smash 4 is not as hype to watch for the uninitiated (like brawl) and may hurt the tornado of interest melee has spun up at EVO/MLG.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

There will never be another schism like melee/brawl because melee players lost trust in Sakurai after that.

We viewed brawl as almost a literal game messiah. At that point there were only 2 smash games, and each one was objectively better than the last, so hopes were incredibly high. When it didn't pan out as we wanted, it made a lot of really awesome people stop playing entirely, and that was an awful time for smash.

When smash 4 was released most melee players/veterans have received it with an "it's ok" temprement. There's still some novelty there, but all of our hate was used up on brawl. It's live and let live at this point.

I am a little worried that smash 4 is not as hype to watch for the uninitiated (like brawl) and may hurt the tornado of interest melee has spun up at EVO/MLG.

Yup. Smash4 will be awful for our reputation with the rest of the FGC (which actually matters). Tons of evo streamers don't understand the differences between the games and having a game like smash 4 rep our community isn't what we need.

It makes me so ****ing salty that so many smash4 players who have never attended a tournament are now so set on "proving that smash 4 can be as competitive as melee" and taking our spot at Evo without understanding any of the history involved in Melee's struggle to earn even a shred of respect in the fgc and larger world of exports. I don't want a game that plays like smash4 influencing the future of our community in any way but unfortunately that's what's happening.

 

[MuraRengan]

Our best hope for the return of a respectable modern competitive smash game is with Wii U hacking. The release of Brawl prompted a huge effort into hacking the Wii, which resulted in Project M. We can only hope that the same will happen with the Wii U.

 

[GhettoNinja]

Yup. Smash4 will be awful for our reputation with the rest of the FGC (which actually matters). Tons of evo streamers don't understand the differences between the games and having a game like smash 4 rep our community isn't what we need.

It makes me so ****ing salty that so many smash4 players who have never attended a tournament are now so set on "proving that smash 4 can be as competitive as melee" and taking our spot at Evo without understanding any of the history involved in Melee's struggle to earn even a shred of respect in the fgc and larger world of exports. I don't want a game that plays like smash4 influencing the future of our community in any way but unfortunately that's what's happening.

I couldn't agree with you more for the most part (and this is coming from a smash 4 player) well i think it would be awesome for smash 4 to get a spot at Evo I would rather have melee stay there now granted if eventually both could be rep the to separate types of gameplay that smash has that would be awesome but for now I feel that it makes slightly more sense for the game with like 13 years of competieve play to rep the series at least compared to a game with a still very young meta game(plus it came this year where as Melee had to scrape by with under ground tournaments for years before there were any big tournments MLG, Apex,Evo,Etc.) Basically I'm just trying to say don't type cast all SM4SH players.

 

[GhettoNinja]

Our best hope for the return of a respectable modern competitive smash game is with Wii U hacking. The release of Brawl prompted a huge effort into hacking the Wii, which resulted in Project M. We can only hope that the same will happen with the Wii U.

That's becuase brawl was just terrible and needed the fixes Nintendo obviously didnt plan on giving it. But Smash 4 doesn't really need its project m becuase its not anti competitive at its core. Also considering they already have homebrew on the 3DS thats where most likely a project m style project would happen if it was for some reason(I wouldn't mind a portable Project M but thats just me)

 

[Massive]

Our best hope for the return of a respectable modern competitive smash game is with Wii U hacking. The release of Brawl prompted a huge effort into hacking the Wii, which resulted in Project M. We can only hope that the same will happen with the Wii U.

I'm willing to bet this is unlikely for the near future since PM actually can be played fine on the WiiU.
Why start over when you have something that's already working fantastically well?