Let's make a list of tips for annoying MU's

[pichuthedk]

Not sure how everyone else is doing with their matches but maybe we can all help each other out with tidbits we've noticed while fighting certain characters.

No idea where to start so I'll start with something that is kinda obvious but could easily been overlooked by some of the newer Zss mains who might not have thought about it.
Robin's camp game can be annoying but you can take away half of that by crawling when ever you are in mid range (lets say just outside of an arc fire's range) Zss can crawl under every thunder including thor arm.

Not sure about Nosferatu though I will need to test that sometime.

Another random thing as SMFP stated her grab is easier to land/faster and less end lag ( there is still a small blind spot SAKURAI Y U DO DIS) aside from that its pretty good, Moving on I noticed that I'll say most not every character( because i haven't tested it yet) that has the multi hit jabs that end with finishers can be grabbed without even moving I'd assume melee grabbers would have to run up and dash grab if it was even possible.

 

[Solasel]

One thing to note is that on lighter characters (Kirby, Jigglez, etc.) can be hard to KO because of their tendency to be knocked out of our up special. Only way I've come across to solve this is to save Fsmash for a finisher, though they tend to be slippery, so be careful. Down special's kick is also fabulous, even got a Kirby with a meteor bounce once.

Thanks for the note on Robin. The only robin's I've faced (in for glory) just charge their thunder at range. Easy enough to use down special to close the gap and get a nice grounding combo. Can't expect that to work for every Robin though.

 

[Solasel]

Another thing I forgot is that when using Fsmash against Greninja, for some reason the second hit of Fsmash doesn't always connect because of his low posture. Someone should do some testing, because sometimes it landed and sometimes it just whiffed over him. Also, your laser doesn't hit his water shuriken, so you have to shield or jump over it (if he's charging it, down special is amazing).

 

[Muttley]

Another thing I forgot is that when using Fsmash against Greninja, for some reason the second hit of Fsmash doesn't always connect because of his low posture. Someone should do some testing, because sometimes it landed and sometimes it just whiffed over him. Also, your laser doesn't hit his water shuriken, so you have to shield or jump over it (if he's charging it, down special is amazing).

It seems like the second hit tends to whiff over shorter characters like Greninja because the second kick is an oh-so-aweshum assassin high kick. While it may be many Samus fans' wet dream come true (you can high kick me all day, Samus), it can lead to some pretty nasty problems with shorties. A whiffed second-hit Fsmash leaves her wide open to all sorts of counters, especially given the speed of Greninja's moves (watch out for that Dsmash and all kinds of tilts).

Damage seems to make no difference at mid and long ranges. Even at 999%, a fully charged Fsmash won't connect. What I found is that the second hit will connect most of the time under two circumstances: 1.) You smash him from a very short range or 2.) You smash him near a ledge. This is because when Greninja gets hit by the first kick's subtle knockback, he ducks slightly. At short ranges, he doesn't get knocked back far enough to duck out of your hitbox. When you smash near a ledge, the knockback of the first hit sends him over the edge, meaning he is unable to reel back and duck, leaving him open to the second hit.

It seems minute but its actually pretty annoying because it limits Zamus' finishing capabilities in a game where it's more of a pain in the ass to get a killing move in than before. Greninja can be a tough matchup for a lot of characters, so it's something to be careful of.

Also sometimes I have problems with ZSS pivoting after a roll (I should just stop rolling) when I go in for a neutral special. It may just be my joystick being weird, but it's something I've only had noticeable issues with while playing ZSS and has left me open to some brutal punishment when I end up facing the wrong way. Anybody else have this problem or can I chalk it up to me being overzealous with my stick input?

 

[Deleted member]

While this my not be an MU sort of thing, it's still good to point out that a D-Throw to Fair works phenomenally as a finisher once the opponent is at a high percentage. Her speed aids big time with this, so you can, say for example, shoot a slightly charged laser (or uncharged if you want) to bait your opponent into shielding/rolling/sidestepping and grab em right there. Unless they're smart enough to jump it's a fairy simple strategy to take them down, and even if they do jump you can just pop in a Fair right there (points for rhyming).

Also, a little peeved that a laser to D-smash doesn't really work that well anymore, but whatever, that's just me.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Game and Watch is a lot harder than in Brawl because uair and side-b are so much worse than they were.

My advice so far is to space with tilts rather than paralyzer, its slow speed and longer range makes it easier to absorb. Use your tilts, they work pretty well. You have to take it slow because they don't do a lot of damage. Paralyzer rarely can be rewarding because even if he absorbs a hit, you get a grab or a punish during his lag. But don't let him get all 3, he can combo bucket from down throw and end stock 2 instantly... :/

 

[Muttley]

Paralyzer to grab combo is a fantastic approach tool for a lot of MU's, actually. Tilts are solid; dtilts will save your ass all day against laggy powerhouses like Ike or Bowser.

 

[pichuthedk]

Another thing I forgot is that when using Fsmash against Greninja, for some reason the second hit of Fsmash doesn't always connect because of his low posture. Someone should do some testing, because sometimes it landed and sometimes it just whiffed over him. Also, your laser doesn't hit his water shuriken, so you have to shield or jump over it (if he's charging it, down special is amazing).

I have tested this and it doesn't land unless hes in the air and your incorrect about the laser and shuriken it cancels all his small ones uncharged but his medium one requires a charged shot as for his large one you can use our side b which everyone has been hating one for some reason.

Also sometimes I have problems with ZSS pivoting after a roll (I should just stop rolling) when I go in for a neutral special. It may just be my joystick being weird, but it's something I've only had noticeable issues with while playing ZSS and has left me open to some brutal punishment when I end up facing the wrong way. Anybody else have this problem or can I chalk it up to me being overzealous with my stick input?

I have had that but I am a try hard loser who feels the need to foxtrot ->breverse laser aimed at my opponents but remember even if you are facing the wrong way you can let go of b and let the laser fly then you pray to god and spam down b away from them.


Another note for greninja obviously this is for players you feel are probably low level to just under mid level If you down throw to fair (first hit doesn't matter all that matters is the second hit connecting for the tumble animation ) at lets say 0-10% if they opt not to tech just laser them when they land you can then foxtrot over ->downsmash -> up b for a nice opener on that stock.
Most of the heavy characters I assume can be forced to get up from B-throw at very low %s I've done this to DDD at like under 10%



Until you get comfortable with the transition stick to just that because I've slowly started testing and I think we can down throw -> fair -> laser the missed tech -> fox trot -> down smash (before he gets up) -> down smash again and up B

Bare with me I have to write all this stuff down before a forget
Alot of MU's are easy to edgeguard from a mere grab from my testing if you B-throw certain characters-> down b towards them you can just about spike them disrespectfully(footstool version kick super unsafe offstage). (this works with F-throw to on some)

Keep in mind that this obviously works based on their vectoring at what ever%s
-little mac pretty easy at mid ish%s [low%s only if they are bad recovering with him (B-throw)]
-Ike Mid -75 ish%s (b throw)
-Link (60% ish for F-throw) B-throw is kinda iffy with him its up to you to try
(I'll update this list as I remember from testing)

Second last thing I noticed that one game I was up a stock against a mario and I had just F-smashed him off stage , For some reason or another I decided to YOLO off the stage and I zaired him finding out that not only did I hit him away to the point where he was effed I was able to make it back with double jump to up b [not 100%sure if it was that order however at the very least we should be able to down b to the wall do a wall jump (holding up or jump) and change the horizontal trajectory (holding back towards the wall after she jumps) so were closer to the wall when the flip ends -> jump and up b]

Zair can be used to clip jumps/ yolo gimp while side b are really good at stage spiking people Try to do things like charge a laser for when they are getting close to grabbing the ledge and then just side -bing them off.


Last note Rosalina EFF her and her Luma legit perma stun luma with lasers until rosalina does something if she doesn't keep the dps up on luma until you can just dash attack him away or something,
-Do not grab her unless luma is out of range
-If your lasering Luma and rosalina runs up you should be able to side b the (insert rage filled name calling) away with her precious star. Once luma is dead begin dpsing Rosalina just treat her as some sort of boss encounter don't try to fight until you've taken care of her pet.

TLDR
-greeninja can b F-smashed in the air trap with a laser
-forced getups are real we need to use this to our advantage more
-Certain chars are free to throw->down b spikes (footstool version the kick is to dangerous offstage )
-zair off stage is survivable
-side b stage spikes (charged laser-spaced side b)
-Stun luma till rosalina gets mad side b her and him away when she approaches
-Don't fight Rosa head on when luma is alive LUMA must die.
-Another sexy thing to do is just charged laser to down b spikeing people just mix it up

Sorry my organization sucks I just got off of beating the same Ike like 30 times in a row in glory and then ran into an annoying rosalina who RQ after I beat her when she had a 30% deficit, I'll clean things up when I get a chance.
Happy Hunting

Oh Yeah I forgot for some stupid reason we can downsmash to down bfootstool spike at certain ranges/%/how bad our enemy is at vectoring haven't really done it my self but meh who knows what comes in handy these days.

 

[Solasel]

Was just fighting a Sonic in For Glory. Lost the first time to his gimmicky nature: his approaches with his rolls, etc. It seems like you can neutral special him out of one of the rolls, but not the other. In either case, he's probably going to roll into you and jump into an up aerial. Easily consistent counter to this is to shield until he's in the air, then do a dashing up smash under him. Don't roll too much with him either, and if you do, roll towards his approach rather than away: he'll generally catch you if you roll away.

TBH this probably won't do well in high level smashing, but for simple for glory, it helps a lot.

 

[Dakpo]

So instead of a thread that has little tips about some new/tough matchups, why doeesn't someone just make an official Match-up thread so we can organize this information instead of having to surf through many posts to find specific information

 

[pichuthedk]

So instead of a thread that has little tips about some new/tough matchups, why doeesn't someone just make an official Match-up thread so we can organize this information instead of having to surf through many posts to find specific information

Umm i guess I should be the one to make since I started this little venture alright looks like I just assigned myself some homework zzz.

Was just fighting a Sonic in For Glory. Lost the first time to his gimmicky nature: his approaches with his rolls, etc. It seems like you can neutral special him out of one of the rolls, but not the other. In either case, he's probably going to roll into you and jump into an up aerial. Easily consistent counter to this is to shield until he's in the air, then do a dashing up smash under him. Don't roll too much with him either, and if you do, roll towards his approach rather than away: he'll generally catch you if you roll away.

TBH this probably won't do well in high level smashing, but for simple for glory, it helps a lot.

Uncharged laser will stun sonic out of his spins based on speed I assume because half the time it does the other half it cancels out,, If we shield his Dair we should be able to get a downsmash granted were facing in front of him...that or some of the sonic's ive faced have the reaction time of a snail.

Before I even make the new thread is there a character we all can agree/hate enough to start on first? It's prob best for us to get the annoying matchups out of the way.
Kinda feel like it should be either
Rosalina
Greeninja
camp happy links (since hes a lot faster this time around)
really small characters as stated in earlier posts landing those kill moves are annoying as F#$%
little mac although I still stand by what i said with him being free to throw-> down b spikes.

 

[Solasel]

I know there is an official MU thread up now, but since it's still getting up and running, here it is. I have been having problems against Ness lately. This may be a personal issue, so feel free to ignore, but I think it has some merit since the guy who won the tourney lost a set to a Ness while sweeping the floor with everyone else. Of course player skill comes hugely into play here, but is there any real reason why Ness is annoying?

 

[pichuthedk]

I know there is an official MU thread up now, but since it's still getting up and running, here it is. I have been having problems against Ness lately. This may be a personal issue, so feel free to ignore, but I think it has some merit since the guy who won the tourney lost a set to a Ness while sweeping the floor with everyone else. Of course player skill comes hugely into play here, but is there any real reason why Ness is annoying?

Because I think He has more fluid motions when hes comboing us his fair is still as annoying as ever and one of our ace's in the hole of making a ness panic and up b into the wall by accident doesn't work anymore since ness can pk thunder again.

He has less lag when he absorbs a projectile this time I think (not fully sure this was around the launch and I don't see many ness's)
My guess Is to try and zair his fair approaches and sdi his pk fire to try and bait his grab and retaliate with jabs possible since our jab actually finishes in this game we don't have to worry as much about people being able to shield and then grab us.

I am going to start compiling what we've already put into this thread into sections for the chars we've discussed then its a matter of simple copy and paste when we get the ball rolling.
1 last thing remember we should theoretically get to downsmash ness if he tries to style on us with a pk thunder on collusion onstage just don't drop shield to early.

While this my not be an MU sort of thing, it's still good to point out that a D-Throw to Fair works phenomenally as a finisher once the opponent is at a high percentage. Her speed aids big time with this, so you can, say for example, shoot a slightly charged laser (or uncharged if you want) to bait your opponent into shielding/rolling/sidestepping and grab em right there. Unless they're smart enough to jump it's a fairy simple strategy to take them down, and even if they do jump you can just pop in a Fair right there (points for rhyming).

Also, a little peeved that a laser to D-smash doesn't really work that well anymore, but whatever, that's just me.

Actually on the contrary that is still a thing although not in the sense that you are thinking, However we are able to charged laser -> down smash -> dash attack people in succession before they finish slipping backwards from the laser stun ( you must obviously be near them to accomplish this don't get greedy if your not sure just go for the grab).

 

[BraveFantasy]

Alright I don't know if anyone has this issue, or if it's just the fact that no one else has fought a good Villager yet, but he is by far the most annoying M/U in this game for my ZSS in particular. Lets start with the fact he has six projectiles. His fair and bair outrange us. Lloyds have transcendent priority and can only be destroyed by one of our moves. Neutral b. Which brings me to my next annoyance. Villager can pocket neutral b. So villager can now spam and approach with lloyds. We have three options: Shoot lloyd with our neutral b, allowing it to be pocket so he may now stun us at will, shield and get grabbed, roll and possibly get pivot smashed, or jump. Usually the jump option ends with a nair since it's our best trading tool. You can't zair these things. They go through it. They go through side b as well. Also his dair beats our uair so uair strings are out. He can not be gimped. I have tried every single one of ZSS moves offstage to try. The only thing I haven't successfully attempted is a side b offstage due to the fact we fall to our death when we try. You can't meteor him. He just floats back up. You can jump off and bair him against the stage but if the percent isn't high enough he'll just float back up. Or he'll tech. If he techs we are now screwed, which brings me to the next annoyance. He can gimp ZSS. With enough bairs/fairs, and good enough reads it's possible. I believe him and diddy to be the only two characters in the game that can do this. I'm fine with diddy, since we can also gimp him, but villager being able to gimp us and us not being able to gimp him is insanely annoying. I can win this M/U, but I have to put forth a lot more effort than I do for any other. I feel like the whole time I'm playing this M/U I'm having to think three steps ahead just to win. Fighting villager is a serious headache for me, literally, so if anyone has any ideas on how to make this M/U any easier please let me know. I really hope there's something obvious I'm missing.

 

[pichuthedk]

Alright I don't know if anyone has this issue, or if it's just the fact that no one else has fought a good Villager yet, but he is by far the most annoying M/U in this game for my ZSS in particular. Lets start with the fact he has six projectiles. His fair and bair outrange us. Lloyds have transcendent priority and can only be destroyed by one of our moves. Neutral b. Which brings me to my next annoyance. Villager can pocket neutral b. So villager can now spam and approach with lloyds. We have three options: Shoot lloyd with our neutral b, allowing it to be pocket so he may now stun us at will, shield and get grabbed, roll and possibly get pivot smashed, or jump. Usually the jump option ends with a nair since it's our best trading tool. You can't zair these things. They go through it. They go through side b as well. Also his dair beats our uair so uair strings are out. He can not be gimped. I have tried every single one of ZSS moves offstage to try. The only thing I haven't successfully attempted is a side b offstage due to the fact we fall to our death when we try. You can't meteor him. He just floats back up. You can jump off and bair him against the stage but if the percent isn't high enough he'll just float back up. Or he'll tech. If he techs we are now screwed, which brings me to the next annoyance. He can gimp ZSS. With enough bairs/fairs, and good enough reads it's possible. I believe him and diddy to be the only two characters in the game that can do this. I'm fine with diddy, since we can also gimp him, but villager being able to gimp us and us not being able to gimp him is insanely annoying. I can win this M/U, but I have to put forth a lot more effort than I do for any other. I feel like the whole time I'm playing this M/U I'm having to think three steps ahead just to win. Fighting villager is a serious headache for me, literally, so if anyone has any ideas on how to make this M/U any easier please let me know. I really hope there's something obvious I'm missing.

We could also destroy the llyod down b kick although its much more risky. Another thing we could do is just down b over him and kick him he isn't able to perform any actions right away so you have a small window.
Also actually we can spikes on him at the right % with down b footstool when hes riding Llyods off stage.
I hate that about his bairs and fairs though along with we can never really recover low with taht damn bowling ball.
The only thing I can think of in those times when you can't get to the ledge in time is to tether cancel wall jump pray to god your high enough to tether again if your out of jumps.

I played pretty decent villager the other night and had a lot of those same issues occur especially the pocketed laser , there were a couple of games where he got to laser ->walk up fsmash me for the game. After that I started just moving around a lot until he used it and it was safe again. I also went over his tree for kicks as well but the timing is...

anyways i'll just agree with you villager annoying AF,Did you ever get chopped by that axe it was like his arms were trucks I swear.

 

[BraveFantasy]

I have been hit by the Axe yes. Worse I've been hit by timber right as I was grabbing the ledge with tether. I immediately did a get up attack and should have retained a few invincibility frames, but got hit anyway. At this point my friend casually announced "Oh tree goes through invincibility." I really didn't know what to say about this. I haven't let it happen since and he'd never tell me if he was joking or not, but I really need to test this since if tree goes through invincibility we are screwed on every way of recovery except recovering high. And if we recover high too much we'll eventually eat a bair or fair, get knocked back off the stage...and then there's a stock gone. I actually will start using the flip a little more for dealing with Lloyd pressure. Not too much to be predictable though. Regardless of how annoying it is we have 4 options...which means they only have a 25% chance of guessing right and getting a punish as long as we stay unpredictable. Also shield grabbing villager and using dthrow then getting blown up by Lloyds resets neutral and lets you trade damage in your favor...but he's a pain to kill in general so I'd really rather not trade at all. I've started trying to empty jump over him and wait to see what he does. Sometimes I get a free down smash out of it if he rolls. Other times I shield a tilt and then we're back to neutral. But yeah extremely annoying M/U in general.

 

[The Singing Gio]

I've been having problems with Toon Link more than any other character so far. Everyone uses him the same way. Spam boomerangs, arrows, bombs. When I get close enough he grabs and runs away, rinse and repeat. I simply don't know what to do when I get close to him. Anyone else having problems with this match up?

 

[pichuthedk]

I have been hit by the Axe yes. Worse I've been hit by timber right as I was grabbing the ledge with tether. I immediately did a get up attack and should have retained a few invincibility frames, but got hit anyway. At this point my friend casually announced "Oh tree goes through invincibility." I really didn't know what to say about this. I haven't let it happen since and he'd never tell me if he was joking or not, but I really need to test this since if tree goes through invincibility we are screwed on every way of recovery except recovering high. And if we recover high too much we'll eventually eat a bair or fair, get knocked back off the stage...and then there's a stock gone. I actually will start using the flip a little more for dealing with Lloyd pressure. Not too much to be predictable though. Regardless of how annoying it is we have 4 options...which means they only have a 25% chance of guessing right and getting a punish as long as we stay unpredictable. Also shield grabbing villager and using dthrow then getting blown up by Lloyds resets neutral and lets you trade damage in your favor...but he's a pain to kill in general so I'd really rather not trade at all. I've started trying to empty jump over him and wait to see what he does. Sometimes I get a free down smash out of it if he rolls. Other times I shield a tilt and then we're back to neutral. But yeah extremely annoying M/U in general.

Well regarding grabbing villager and throwing him down but still getting hit by llyod I was kinda wondering If our Up throw timed properly will let her flip over it.
We can also just say Eff him and run and jumping dair him and the llyod should be possible to hit him and destroy the llyod (or not and we get hit but we launched villager).
Hes annoying to kill yes but there is a potential stage spike we can land since all villagers go low for some reason.

@ The Singing Gio
Don't worry pal I sometimes have difficulty with those matches depending on their skill level both as a player and as a TL/Link.
My advice to you is to get good at being able to use your moves to clash with his projectiles , Bombs aside we can just jab/tilt his arrows /rangs so maybe practice with computers and only focus on maneuvering around projectiles till your comfortable (set more then one toon link for better practice I guess).

Lastly you should save some replays of you getting camped out and go back and look at your positioning when that is happening, We can get down b kicks/ nairs /zairs/ side-bs on some of the spammers camp game when your aware and putting your self in the right spot.

 

[BraveFantasy]

Well regarding grabbing villager and throwing him down but still getting hit by llyod I was kinda wondering If our Up throw timed properly will let her flip over it.
We can also just say Eff him and run and jumping dair him and the llyod should be possible to hit him and destroy the llyod (or not and we get hit but we launched villager).

Or we might get shield grabbed...unless you mean to do this right as he's summoning the Lloyd. In which case it might work. But that's only if we're in a position to do so. And in this case dash attack also works. Not to mention it goes through the opponent so we can't get shield grabbed. Dair is more random though so between both maybe it'll work. Sadly the moment we reach higher percents and can't get there in time to stop Lloyd before it comes flying at us after the initial summoning we're in trouble. Also I've stage spiked villager. If he's not high enough percents he just floats back up. There has to be a trick to this. Is side b considered two hits if we land the tip? Although it's not viable off stage any villager that doesn't recover low could be dealt with. Maybe we could yolo off the stage with an uncharged neutral b and then double jump zair, then use our down b to get back on stage. Probably not viable but it'd be fun to try in friendlies.

 

[Zero Suit Roxas]

I've been having problems with Toon Link more than any other character so far. Everyone uses him the same way. Spam boomerangs, arrows, bombs. When I get close enough he grabs and runs away, rinse and repeat. I simply don't know what to do when I get close to him. Anyone else having problems with this match up?

Maybe try crawling under his arrows and boomerangs, maybe even his bombs if you're close enough. I usually jump above them and use her down kick to try and stop their camping. Sometimes I stand on the other edge and try camping with Paralyzer shots. Even though it probably won't reach him, he'll start doing the same thing. After a while, your opponent will probably expect you to stay there for a while. That's when you dash attack or use the Plasma Whip on them. I mostly run at my camping opponents and use ZSS's Flip Jump with a kick. They don't really expect it until you do it frequently. They'll probably start shielding when you do this more often, so don't follow it with a kick when they shield. This gets rid of a lot of landing lag and it'll just break their concentration.

 

[Fangblade]

Our Plasma Whip sends DHD's can in the opposite direction.

 

[ChaseRLewis]

Pikachu .... man this matchup is going to be bad as this game gets older. Our entire moveset pretty much doesn't work except a perfectly timed fast fall nair & down-tilt which if spaced anything but perfectly he can punish very easily.

Only kill options with any shot of hitting are air-to-air bair and down+smash into release up+b but then again who knows maybe THAT doesn't work depending on vectoring.

I feel some other matchups can be rough, but this one just feels flat out stupid.

 

[David Viran]

Pikachu .... man this matchup is going to be bad as this game gets older. Our entire moveset pretty much doesn't work except a perfectly timed fast fall nair & down-tilt which if spaced anything but perfectly he can punish very easily.

Only kill options with any shot of hitting are air-to-air bair and down+smash into release up+b but then again who knows maybe THAT doesn't work depending on vectoring.

I feel some other matchups can be rough, but this one just feels flat out stupid.

This match up I can definitely see being in a disadvantage but remember down Smash is ridiculously safe on shield too. A back air can still hit a crouching pikachu also. Our grab might work if right in front of him which could possibly lead to a up special. I don't think pikachu can vector out of up special because vertical vectoring is gone. A forward tilt tilted down will get him to.

Edit: Like somebody said in another thread the match up in brawl was 50 50 and he could pull the same bull crap in brawl. So it can't end up being to bad.

 

[pichuthedk]

Or we might get shield grabbed...unless you mean to do this right as he's summoning the Lloyd. In which case it might work. But that's only if we're in a position to do so. And in this case dash attack also works. Not to mention it goes through the opponent so we can't get shield grabbed. Dair is more random though so between both maybe it'll work. Sadly the moment we reach higher percents and can't get there in time to stop Lloyd before it comes flying at us after the initial summoning we're in trouble. Also I've stage spiked villager. If he's not high enough percents he just floats back up. There has to be a trick to this. Is side b considered two hits if we land the tip? Although it's not viable off stage any villager that doesn't recover low could be dealt with. Maybe we could yolo off the stage with an uncharged neutral b and then double jump zair, then use our down b to get back on stage. Probably not viable but it'd be fun to try in friendlies.

OH man I forgot to post to you about this but bro I randomly found an answer to this annoying ploy by him I only did this for grounded llyoids though.

Most villagers make space then grounded llyoid -> jumping over it and fairing you what I found to be extremely effective was to
Dash at them -> Forward roll behind him, It is imperative that you maintain a specific distance and do no come up short on the forward roll because you absolutely need to punish him as he gets off the rocket before his animation finishes.

@ Above screw pikachu seems like you need to actually erase up tilt from your moveset because of it's end lag and make sure you are always positioned properly to down tilt safely.
I have the Pikachu Johns all day him and any other small character are the bane of my existence.