Let's define Offense

[Scroll]

Short back story
In a somewhat dead thread in the Sheik section we were discussing why people say Sheik is called defensive oriented.
My objective here is not to discuss Sheik, so please take part in that discussion if you feel like it.
My goal is simply to define Offense, partly to discuss it in a nonarbitray way and partly to learn more about the game.

I feel some people have different views on what it is so feel free to go ahead and speak your mind on this matter using examples or what what ever you want.

My proposal for a definition:

To define Offense we need to take a look at a scenario which is as neutral as it can, being:
Both opponents are standing still at a distance where neither can hit or grab the other without moving forward (projectiles excluded) and both have the space to move back as far as they wish.
Now, everyone knows any scenario in a real match has conditions which are as far from the definition example as possible, EXCEPT ONE. You guessed it! The very first second of any match.
But some characteristics do still apply in almost any neutral scenario.

An offensive option is to move forward, thus crossing the line of perfect spacing, with the intention of hitting the opponent with a hitbox or a grab with out baiting or punishing.

Picture a hunter chasing his pray spear first. He might have a plan B (laying traps) and C (retreating). But plan A being to go for that one blow kill.

That is how I understand the general idea of what Offense is.
How well you mask that offensive approach is up to the individual

 

[KirbyKaze]

Offense to me is just proactively looking for good positions that put pressure on the opponent

 

[Scarlet Bean]

Do dumb **** that's hype and bash on anyone who plays peach
thats aggro.

 

[Vizc]

Offense is when you're in a position that opponent's best hope is to reset the game to neutral, a good one anyway.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

offense is the ability to steal and consume space people have and attack them too
defense is containing the space you already have and keeping people from stealing it from you

my 2cents

 

[Flippy Flippersen]

Yay I started something.

What I feel offense in neutral is is forcing the opponent to take an action. This doesn't have to mean you have to throw out a ridic amount of moves but it does require you to go in sorta.

I originally made the thread cause most of the sheik games I see she doesn't force anything. Whenever a neutral situation happens she just charges needles until the opponent decides to go in. Or she hangs out on the plats doing the same.
(There are exceptions but this is what I see imo too many of them do)

 

[MookieRah]

Well charging needles isn't defensive, its aggressive. It is something that gives Sheik more power and options over her opponent, but at the expense of vulnerability for a short while. Sheik's opponent has the options of A: trying to take advantage of her vulnerability and/or limit the amount of needles she charges, or B: let her gain an offensive advantage for free.

Most players will not sit back and let Sheik do this, it forces them to react. Sheik also has the ability to choose strategic placement to charge, so that it makes it more difficult for her opponent to go in. I would consider this offensive, it's just not as obvious as running in and starting a pressure string.

 

[Flippy Flippersen]

Needles definitely givd sheik an advantage but I wouldn't go as far to say it's offensive. It doesn't force the majority of the toptiers do anything remotely punishable. Spaceys have lasers floaties are too high to prioritize stopping needles over position sheik herself can just store needles as well. The only chars it forces to react are marth and falcon both of which are pretty good matchups for sheik because all it takes to force them in are needles which are interruptable way before they can hit her.

Needles are crazy good and letting a sheik store them isn't something you should do but it generally doesn't force the opponent into anything unsafe/getting hit.

 

[Scroll]

Ok so if offense is controlling/gaining/stealing space and putting the opponent in a corner (pressured), that brings up a question that needs to be asked. What is a corner? And why does it force one to take action? If the corner is at the Ledge, then M2K is the grand example of this not being completely true. With the right tools you actually gain some new advantages being at the ledge such as gimp opportunities. Is that character specific? Does the position-disadvantages outshine the gained opportunities?
I am not saying I disagree with you guys, actually I am learning alot!
Ps. Try and keep charatcer specific discussions out of this thread.

 

[MookieRah]

What is a corner?

I would say a corner, in this case, is any position in which your current options are overall worse than your opponents, and in an exchange you would have a lower chance of success than your opponent. A couple of examples: if you are on a lower platform while your opponent is on the ground, or when you are off stage and your opponent is on the stage. In these situations you are in a position that favours your opponent. While these positions may open up new options for you, those options aren't as good as your opponent's.

And why does it force one to take action? If the corner is at the Ledge, then M2K is the grand example of this not being completely true.

Nope, the ledge is a corner, as you have less space to deal with your opponent and running away isn't an option. M2K has indeed mastered the ledge with a character that can do a lot from the ledge in a fairly safe manner, but don't let that fool you. While the ledge does grant you options, these options are still limited. The ledge is becoming more and more of a detriment as people learn more about how to respect their opponents options at the edge (aka not overextending) and place themselves in a position to counter them.

To put this in simpler terms, I don't think many players feel at ease with their backs up against the ledge while they are within their opponents threatened area. I am thinking M2K also doesn't find this favourable either.

 

[Flippy Flippersen]

Forcing an opponent to the corner isn't the only form of pressure. Pressure is just forcing your opponent to give up something. If I shorthop nair at you with fox you are forced to
A) shield
B)move away
C)spotdodge
D)get hit
E)throw out an aerial and crosscounter

This is the most obvious and recognisable offense. Now say I'm Marth, most of my moves are laggy so I can't randomly throw out said aerial. What I do instead is I use the threat of my enormous grab/the power of the tipper to come at you without even doing anything (dash dancing) and make you react purely based on the threat of what I can do if you still decide not to react.

 

[MookieRah]

Yeah, an important caveat being that offence isn't necessarily an attack. It could be offensive movement, in which your opponent is using the threat of their attacks as a means to take more stage. Marth favours these types of exchanges, as his moves have low startup lag and beat pretty much anything, but they don't have lingering hotboxes and they have a lot of wind down lag. As such he can counter anything like a beast, but if he commits to something and misses, he is screwed.

 

[Fliperotchy]

Short back story
In a somewhat dead thread in the Sheik section we were discussing why people say Sheik is called defensive oriented.
My objective here is not to discuss Sheik, so please take part in that discussion if you feel like it.
My goal is simply to define Offense, partly to discuss it in a nonarbitray way and partly to learn more about the game.

I feel some people have different views on what it is so feel free to go ahead and speak your mind on this matter using examples or what what ever you want.

My proposal for a definition:

To define Offense we need to take a look at a scenario which is as neutral as it can, being:
Both opponents are standing still at a distance where neither can hit or grab the other without moving forward (projectiles excluded) and both have the space to move back as far as they wish.
Now, everyone knows any scenario in a real match has conditions which are as far from the definition example as possible, EXCEPT ONE. You guessed it! The very first second of any match.
But some characteristics do still apply in almost any neutral scenario.

An offensive option is to move forward, thus crossing the line of perfect spacing, with the intention of hitting the opponent with a hitbox or a grab with out baiting or punishing.

Picture a hunter chasing his pray spear first. He might have a plan B (laying traps) and C (retreating). But plan A being to go for that one blow kill.

That is how I understand the general idea of what Offense is.
How well you mask that offensive approach is up to the individual

Not all matches start neutral. Picking the wrong controller port on Pokemon Stadium for example can put you on the left edge and the opponent on the platform above you. Depending on the characters, one of you is in a better position than the other.

That aside, everyone defines it differently, just keep in mind that it doesn't always involve attacking, or even moving sometimes.

 

[Kaeon]

Forcing an opponent to the corner isn't the only form of pressure. Pressure is just forcing your opponent to give up something. If I shorthop nair at you with fox you are forced to
A) shield
B)move away
C)spotdodge
D)get hit
E)throw out an aerial and crosscounter

This is the most obvious and recognisable offense. Now say I'm Marth, most of my moves are laggy so I can't randomly throw out said aerial. What I do instead is I use the threat of my enormous grab/the power of the tipper to come at you without even doing anything (dash dancing) and make you react purely based on the threat of what I can do if you still decide not to react.

The options your opponent has in this situation are dependent on the spacing of the nair, which probably determined by the intention of the nair, given the player has good execution and knows his spacing.

Really, there are matchup specific conditions (i.e. Marth grab range, fox nair threat) that restrict/pressure you and your opponent to certain (but not static) spacings, as well as non-matchup specific conditions (i.e. stage control, platform heights, randell) that influence the amount of risk/reward associated with those already matchup-oriented options. Meshing the two into a coherent gameplan and maximizing offensive potential/punish setups make for a strong overall presence.