Lets Brainstorm Yoshi!

[Yobolight]

Yoshi Brainstorming Thread

the Yoshi char thread is kind of dead, I want to reinvigorate Yoshi discussion with a more targeted approach.

I wanted to make a thread where we could all reveal our thought processes in regards to Yoshi in order to come to some progress with the char!
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I feel like brain storming Yoshi micro situations against Pika, anyone interested? Im super inexperienced in the MU, but I want to get better at it since Ive been playing a lot of Pikas recently.

Here are 3 vs. micro situational puzzles. One for punishing, neutral, and one scramble.

1. Here is a follow up puzzle: You () have just landed a low percent <15% utilt on from under the DL platform, what are the optimal follow ups? I want to construct a branched decision tree based on 's moves.

2. Here is a neutral game puzzle that I want to break down in terms of general strategy and micro-situational responses: You are in neutral and both at safe-pressure spacing distance on the bottom of the DL stage and is throwing out a lot of preemptive short hop fairs walls to catch jumping approaches. How do you deal with the situation, do you try to catch the fair with DA or SH BAir? Or do you try to punish it on landing with X?

3. and are at low/mid percent ~20-40%. is fairing you in super armor as you recover to the stage and you are both currently above the DL side platform. You both have a lot of options in this situation. What are you looking out for from ? Where are you () trying to get to (e.g. on left platform, center stage, below right platform, etc)? Are there any good reversals from this situation?

If anyone has any additional vs ??? micro situational tips or scenarios they would like to explore that they can share, it would be super appreciated.
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I also wanted to explore general positioning. Here are my thoughts on general neutral positioning vertical (above & below) vs horizontal preferences vs all characters.

Preferences (WIP)

: Vertical (above), - IMO this is hard because Yoshi is fairly average at defending top platform, but if anyone has any tips for doing so I would love to hear it
: Vertica (below) - DK has a really tough time in this MU if you watch out for his grab
: Vertica (below) - hard to achieve due to Pikachu amazing maneuverability in neutral
: Vertica (below) - not practical because of fox maneuverability,
: Horizontal, Vertica (below) - Spacing from above is a horrible idea
: Horizontal - Spacing from above is a horrible idea
: Horizontal, Vertical (above), - Yoshi absolutely wrecks puff if you don't let her get above you IMO
: Horizontal
: Horizontal
Unsure/no strong preference:

What do yall think?
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I hope this helps spur some good discussion. I am willing to update this thread if we come to any good findings or w/e.

 

[Shears]

1. 0-death pika
2. Maybe usmash from underneath or wait to land and punish. Don't let pika fair you in neutral, you will either need to double jump out or parry when you land and punish from there.
3. Land, parry, punish

 

[Yobolight]

1. 0-death pika
2. Maybe usmash from underneath or wait to land and punish. Don't let pika fair you in neutral, you will either need to double jump out or parry when you land and punish from there.
3. Land, parry, punish

1. I wish I knew how to do that. Off the top of my head, I think all aerials will hit, but nothing guaranteed links into kills. I can build up damage + landing reads with uairs + w/e, force reads off tech on the platform from fair, dair into the platform (DI depedant), or get Pika off the stage + and hard read the recovery from reverse bair/nair.

2. DJL bait -> Usmash seems good, especially at high %, Ill have to test that. Pivot back -> SH bair/ DJC bair also seem good. FH fair also seems good, depending on the spacing.

3. Just going for parry is too inconsistent because if they know I am just going to spam parry, they can bait it out and zero to death me off an Usmash/utilt -> death combo. I need more options that that. Land -> Parry -> plat drop uair seems promising, but Ill have to test it to see if I can escape safely before the second grab or w/e comes out.

Also @ Shears , Im not sure if you know this, but jab-grab absolutely wrecks Yoshi's parry. It is one of the many reasons I think beats .

 

[Shears]

Parry shield jump.

 

[Yobolight]

Parry shield jump.

What was that responding too?

 

[SheerMadness]

My advice would be to not uptilt Pikachu in the first place. Limit uptilts vs any light character. I've been advocating this for years. Wizzy has really been the only one to heed that advice thus far. He hunts for horizontal combos sans uptilt and is very efficient at comboing light chars because of it.

I die a little inside every time I see a Yoshi uptilt a light char, and fair them back down in hopes of tech chasing.

 

[Fireblaster]

1) Fullhop Fair to techchase is probably the best option. Other aerials don't seem like they link into anything else.

2) Pikas like to weave in and out when they're spacing with fair so it's going to be very hard to punish him when he lands. Yoshi's bair has a fair amount of startup so you need some distance in order to outpoke pika with it and that initial distance makes it obvious to the pika what you're trying to do and he wouldn't even try fair at that distance. I've found that an unusual but viable response is to respond with a sh fair. Fair comes out a lot faster than bair so it's harder to predict.

Best case scenario:
You slap pika into the ground and get a techchase out of it

Worst case scenario:
Through bad timing or hitbox shenanigans pikachu still pokes you with fair. Yoshi then retreats his head back into his body and you're practically not in pika's fair hitbox anymore. Since it's your 14% vs his 3% for a single hit of his fair, it's a decent risk/reward.

3) Depends on how pikachu timed his fair and when the double jump ends. If your double jump is going to end after the fair does, you're fairly safe and can nair pika when he's done or just tank the damage and move to a safer neutral position. If you're going to land during the fair or your double jump is going to end before the fair does, yoshi is in serious trouble. The best tactic here is to recognize this scenario as soon as possible and DJC on purpose. This allows pikachu to stun you with his fair so you can DI through pikachu or in the direction where he's not going so that you aren't getting hit by a follow up attack. Obviously this requires that you're good at smash DI.

 

[Shears]

What was that responding too?

Everything. Parry shield jump everything. Parry shield jump->DJC. Yoshi goes from invincible to super armor and can escape anything and punish anything. Yoshis head is also invincible on most moves. Yoshi is a glass nuclear bomb.

 

[The Star King]

My advice would be to not uptilt Pikachu in the first place. Limit uptilts vs any light character. I've been advocating this for years. Wizzy has really been the only one to heed that advice thus far. He hunts for horizontal combos sans uptilt and is very efficient at comboing light chars because of it.

I die a little inside every time I see a Yoshi uptilt a light char, and fair them back down in hopes of tech chasing.

I thought we discussed this and you conceded that utilt is at least good if Yoshi is facing the stage (where it's unlikely you'll be able to carry a horizontal combo all the way to the other side of the stage). I think you are being stubborn about this seeing as how you harp on this every chance you get.

Plus, his scenario assumes utilt is already landed. Maybe it's not to combo after an aerial or something, but he just used as an anti-air or whatever. Are you saying utilt shouldn't be used at all in combat? If that's now what you're saying, then it should be useful to know how to follow up utilt.

Wizzy has really been the only one to heed that advice thus far. He hunts for horizontal combos sans uptilt and is very efficient at comboing light chars because of it.

I watched Wizzrobe vs Boom's Pikachu at Apex 2015 and he utilted in combos all the time, IDK what you're talking about. Not saying his utilts were necessarily the best there, just pointing out that yes he does utilt.

Here's a couple examples from his first game vs Boom's Pika alone (Boom went Falcon first game of the set)

Anyway, to answer 1): I like to go for: utilt uair (land on side platform) weak nair (land on top platform) high ftilt downb (Prince combo) or my own slight varation, utilt uair weak nair utilt pivot down b, if I can. However with some positions/DI those can be awkward and you might have to go for a tech chase fair or whatever (e.g. if they DI everything up and you can only hit with the tip of your utilt on the top platform). Still a good 70% damage.

2) you can just space bair or fair well and you should beat the fair, or djc nair such that you attack them as they land, or utilt even if you're in position. Short hop fair with Pikachu isn't very good in neutral in this matchup I think, dunno why you're asking about it. Full hop fair to catch jumps/land on the platform is a lot better imo.

3) Kind of a weird question to me, not sure I understand. You're above a side platform and you're early enough in your super armor that you can jump all the way to under platform on the other side of the stage? Is that really recovering then? Doesn't seem like that should be a common scenario to me.

Everything. Parry shield jump everything. Parry shield jump->DJC. Yoshi goes from invincible to super armor and can escape anything and punish anything. Yoshis head is also invincible on most moves. Yoshi is a glass nuclear bomb.

Shears pls

 

[SheerMadness]

Anti air uptilts are fine of course. I'm just referring to uptilts after you land an aerial.

The 2nd GIF is a perfect example of why uptilt - fair - tech chase is awful. You've burned your double jump and you're in the air. You have very little movement options available to actually cover a tech chase in that position. Plus you're just burning precious time trying to back to the freaking platform/ground.

The 1st GIF was a best case scenario where he didn't have far to get back to the ground and resume tech chasing.

Being stuck in the air without jumps vs being on the ground, which would you choose in a tech chase situation? Thus, even when you're not in a position to horizontal death combo them just horizontal comboing them into a tech chase is a much more efficient option due to much better movement options. Would you agree?

And yah Wizzy still has bad uptilt habits IMO. But he still goes for them much less than any other Yoshi, aside from me, vs light chars from my observation. I can link you to plenty of difference making horizontal death combos he's executing in high level matches that you really don't see other Yoshis doing (aside from me, no ego stroking intended).

I'd go more in depth but I gtg for now. I'll be back later. I like discussing Yoshi stuff.

 

[Shears]

In the second gif it seems like ftilt would've been better since it would've led to a fair spike and kill.

 

[$$$ Jim $$$]

seems like in both cases he's going for that fair when he can hit the opponent onto the edge of the platform, essentially eliminating one tech option. not sure how many examples there are of him doing it in other cases.
the second one also likely would've worked if boom hadn't di'd to the right

edit: after rewatching them, i'm actually convinced this is the reason he chose the option. that's so cool on both players' ends. first, the choice to go for the guaranteed techchase, then boom's reaction to it later that game. his DI there is incredible

 

[SheerMadness]

Analyzing both GIF's further:

1st GIF if you look closely it appears as though Boom jumped right before the fair landed. He certainly could have up b'ed out of that. I think a f-tilt or djc nair would have led to at least an equally effective horizontal combo and put him in a position to edge guard or get a more promising tech chase at the end.

2nd GIF he had time to turn around before the uptilt. So he easily could have gotten off a turn around f-tilt which would have put Pika off the stage with a 2nd f-tilt. I'm quite certain a crossup DJC nair to dash attack towards the ledge would have worked too.

@ The Star King Also a good illustration of how Yoshi can still work horizontal combos even if you're facing the wrong way. You have time to turn around f-tilt or cross up djc nair to turn stage position around in most situations above 0.

I think this is a solid vid showing the differences in my philosophy vs Pika/light chars and other Yoshi's. You can see that it doesn't even cross my mind to uptilt Pika after I land an aerial and I'm still able to land some death combos. If I can't follow through with the death combo I'm almost always in a good position to tech chase.

 

[caneut]

shears please shut up.

 

[MrMarbles]

wow a thread discussing optimal gameplay, i'm impressed. After spending a crap load of time playing against sheer i think he might be right. He always goes for horizontal combos against my pika and if he misses an aerial he is often in a good position to tech chase and get the kill regardless. i think utilt might be a pretty good mix-up tho, i've seen that used effectively against pika as well

 

[SheerMadness]

It's simple things like this that Yoshi's are missing out on because of terrible uptilt habits:

You can do simple 3-4 hit horizontal combos like that next to the ledge vs any floaty character. Instead people are going for uptilts and getting nothing out of it.

Even when they don't end in death horizontal combos will always lead into a strong tech chase or edge guard situation:

When you get comfortable enough with them they'll be more efficient than uptilt combos in most situations while being more fun and flashy. Very doubtful an uptilt would have led to death here:

 

[bloodpeach]

1) utilt -> fair is ok when you are sure pika will land on a platform, especially the top (c.f. sk's first gif). if fair would put pika on the ground, you're better off going for uair or bair and running away. falling without a dj towards a pika is not a good idea.

2) an option that hasnt been mentioned yet is dash attack. it beats fair horizontally and at the right %s can lead into horizontal combos or tech chases. if u mess up u get grabbed tho

 

[SheerMadness]

Yup dash attack is fantastic vs any ground based Pikachu.

 

[SheerMadness]

So I'm curious to hear everyone's Yoshi strategy vs a vertically camping Kirby. Probably the most difficult thing for Yoshi to deal with in the game.

Let's hear it.

 

[Shears]

Maybe throw an egg, but I think kirby dair beat egg.

Run off stage and down b.

 

[Yobolight]

So I'm curious to hear everyone's Yoshi strategy vs a vertically camping Kirby. Probably the most difficult thing for Yoshi to deal with in the game.

Let's hear it.

I shark under the top platform with FH uair, but Im not actually trying to hit them, I am just trying to bait them into platdropping with dair or w/e, which I am ready for, and I double jump through it and take top platform from them. Once you are above them on the top platform, you are in a pretty good situation because Yoshi is more horizontally mobile than Kirby is vertically/ horizontally. I think you really have to play extremely safe and test your opponent's habits in this situation. Yoshi has more options than Kirby, but Yoshi's options are less rewarding so you have to go for mixups based on pattern recognition.
I mean this isn't perfect because the risk/reward isn't in your favor (IMO it almost never is in the MU), but its the best I know of right now.

Overall I think a focus on stage positioning > everything else is crucial in the MU, and especially against vertical camping.

 

[Deleted member]

wow a thread discussing optimal gameplay, i'm impressed. After spending a crap load of time playing against sheer i think he might be right. He always goes for horizontal combos against my pika and if he misses an aerial he is often in a good position to tech chase and get the kill regardless. i think utilt might be a pretty good mix-up tho, i've seen that used effectively against pika as well

Marbles, thanx for recommending focusing on tech chasing vs pika. It has really helped me a lot! =)

 

[Yobolight]

https://youtu.be/4Vm96s4N7fc?t=2m20s

What is the Yoshi utilt secret that Stranded invented?

 

[MrMarbles]

i bet its utilt to pivot standing down b which i know works on pika

 

[Yobolight]

Any tips on recovering at low-percentage against Pika as Yoshi?

 

[MrMarbles]

Any tips on recovering at low-percentage against Pika as Yoshi?

based on my time playing wizzy and sheer i feel like i am somewhat qualified to answer this. At low percent it's pretty simple. Just recover low and close to the stage (but not so close that you can get grabbed as you rise over the lip of the stage) then wait for pika who will likely try a fair. just wait for the fair to end and you can almost always follow up with a nair before pika has time to follow up. the timing is pretty tight tho so this might take some practice. Anyways no need to get tricky with down b's or eggs to the ledge or anything like that at low %.

example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12rUniklE1s&feature=youtu.be&t=532

and again here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12rUniklE1s&feature=youtu.be&t=706

 

[dahuterschuter]

Is it dead though? I've seen more and more Yoshi in tournies lately.