Let me share some insight on Lucina and Why

[Broly]

Before I begin, I would like to introduce myself to everyone here that may not know me. I am Mike Begum, or Broly, or, more currently, Brolylegs. I have a disability called Arthrogryposis which is a condition that has affected my muscles growth since birth. Therefore, I cannot walk, or use my arms/hands fully such as grab physical objects, bend my fingers or push/pull them. That said, I have adapted to my handicap and have played video games since the age of two.

Anyways, I played Melee competitively around 2004 and have played Brawl in its first two years. Each game, I mained Marth exclusively. I cannot play on a 3ds, so SSB 3DS was impossible and I had to wait on Wii-U. After watchig my matches at KiT15, most of you have asked why I decided to play Lucina rather than old faithful, Marth. Well, there's two reasons. As a disclaimer, I do not intend to prove who is better or use this thread as a persuasive article to choose Lucina over Marth. This is strictly for people to know my reasoning.

Reason #1 Lucina is a female. Now, before this reason gets me blown up, it's mostly me trolling, and having a preference. Marth was always considered, ''girly'' and I decided, ''Well they made a girl Marth. So be it.'' Most games I choose females, and decided to keep the trend going although I do 2nd Bowser Jr.

Reason #2 The difference between both characters are too small, in my opinion, to warrant a change. This reason is a more serious answer, so pay attention. Yes, I know Lucina is worse than Marth, but they are both bad, or Marth is at least worst in this game compared to the other versions of himself. Since they are both bad, I did not feel like choosing one over the other would give me a strategical advantage other than some stage selections and specific matchups. Most people explain that Lucina lags on every move blocked except perfect d-tilt and Marth has better tools. Yes, that is true, but those flaws can be managed. I'm used to spacing out my opponents pretty well with my character, and Lucina can be used properly with great spacing. Although in my videos you can see a lot of mistakes, those can be cleaned up with practice. Another argument is that Marth kills easier/better than Lucina because of tips. Again, that is true. Marth tips hurt. And with my great spacing, Marth should be my character. However, fishing tippers isn't my thing. Back in Melee, I would have agreed that tippers would be the deciding factor, but SSB4 has made me convert my style to making reads and punishing opponents mistakes. I chose balance power over tippers solely on how I deal with opponents psychologically. Reading air dodges, rolls, and punishing blocked moves makes Lucina more of a brawler type of character than Marth's range style. Thus, having power in general makes killing more conveniently with Up smash or F-smash. My last note I want to add on this reason is that the lack of edgeguarding on stage makes Lucina a bit better than Marth in off the stage edgeguards. She has better knockback than Marth [unless tippers] in the air, so using this method to edgeguard just seems to fit better on how I play. I enjoy running off stage and f-airing my opponent away.

I will admit that I do intend to practice Marth more in-depth to find more differences in the two characters. Lucina will still be my main character until I find a character I am more comfortable with and that is a higher tier. All it comes down to is preference, and i'm pretty tired of seeing Marth on my screen anyway, lol.

 

[EternalFlame]

Excellent work out there in KiT15 sir. I saw one of your matches, and I was rather impressed by how you handled her. Disability or not, you've proven anyone can get better with a character and do well as long as they work hard enough for it - so again I say, great work out there.

I pretty much agree with everything you've said here, though I'm speaking from a Marth main's perspective. She has to space like Marth, but it won't hurt her to get closer or anything if the opportunity presents itself. Also, some of the setups/combos I've written on seem to work a little better for Lucina at points (particularly the first hit NAir > DS combo at 100%+). The best thing is that you chose Lucina out of preference, and people really need to do that in any fighting game really.

No matter what kind of advantage Marth boasts, people can do well with either character if they take the time to learn the character and work with those hard MUs.

 

[Conda]

Excellent work out there in KiT15 sir. I saw one of your matches, and I was rather impressed by how you handled her. Disability or not, you've proven anyone can get better with a character and do well as long as they work hard enough for it - so again I say, great work out there.

I pretty much agree with everything you've said here, though I'm speaking from a Marth main's perspective. She has to space like Marth, but it won't hurt her to get closer or anything if the opportunity presents itself. Also, some of the setups/combos I've written on seem to work a little better for Lucina at points (particularly the first hit NAir > DS combo at 100%+). The best thing is that you chose Lucina out of preference, and people really need to do that in any fighting game really.

No matter what kind of advantage Marth boasts, people can do well with either character if they take the time to learn the character and work with those hard MUs.

Marth's sword has more shield stun even non-tippered, no? Marth is always a bit safer as a result, tipper or no tipper. That's been my impression so far after researching it and coming to a conclusion, with @Shaya 's help.

 

[Saclam]

Nice read and also huge respect to you broly for reppin Lucy at tournys and showing peeps that she can also be a threat(diddy slayer).

Your hard work and dedication also inspired me to step up my game a lot more so keep doing what your doing

 

[Wintropy]

I am hesitant to consider any character "bad". I won't contest with Marth being poorer than previous incarnations, as I have sub-optimal understanding of how he can perform in previous games, but the word "bad" just seems like a bit of a tautological term when considering character viability. I've seen some insane Marth players in my personal circle of friends, and they can mitigate his weaknesses and keep up with the best of 'em, irrespective of how imbalanced the matchup is against them.

I appreciate that that is basically what you're saying, though, and I applaud you for sticking with them all the same. Good insights and congratulations for proving that anybody can do great things if they get in and try it!

 

[PixelPerfect]

Despite the argument that she is worse than Marth, you did extremely well in the matches that I watched of you, plus you slayed the Diddy. I hope to see you in more tournaments though since your Lucina is looking really good. Makes me want to try and improve mine a bit more. But it's always nice to see the reason why a player chose a certain character so thanks for explaining it.

 

[EternalFlame]

Marth's sword has more shield stun even non-tippered, no? Marth is always a bit safer as a result, tipper or no tipper. That's been my impression so far after researching it and coming to a conclusion, with @Shaya 's help.

Why I said when the opportunity presents itself xD She has balanced damage all throughout her blade, so sourspots are not something she worried about. The OP already recognized some of the benefits for Marth, so I didnt mention it since thats not what we're here for. Lucina can get close and not suffer damage loss, but the tradeoff is that she's slightly less unsafe on block. Opportunity may not always give the chance to space for a tipper, but at least Lucina can rack up the damage regardless of it

 

[Conda]

Why I said when the opportunity presents itself xD She has balanced damage all throughout her blade, so sourspots are not something she worried about. The OP already recognized some of the benefits for Marth, so I didnt mention it since thats not what we're here for. Lucina can get close and not suffer damage loss, but the tradeoff is that she's slightly less unsafe on block. Opportunity may not always give the chance to space for a tipper, but at least Lucina can rack up the damage regardless of it

Right. But with or without Tippers, Marth's attacks are safer due to his shield stun modifier. Its not about the blade's tipper mechanic - marth has other benefits. He is as able as Lucina to fight up close and doesnt lose much for it

 

[CherubiKnighT]

Lucina is and will always be my main in this game. Practice makes perfect and with enough skill there are no such things as tiers. Just know your character and your opponents. Anything can happen. Challenge Fate.

 

[EternalFlame]

Right. But with or without Tippers, Marth's attacks are safer due to his shield stun modifier. Its not about the blade's tipper mechanic - marth has other benefits. He is as able as Lucina to fight up close and doesnt lose much for it

I wasn't disagreeing with ya, but Lucina can still do a little more damage where Marth would normally sourspot. You know that sourspots can be worked with as much as I do. Point of the matter is in certain situations when tipping isn't an option and the attack can't be blocked, Lucina will outdamage Marth on those hits. But Marth can rack the damage from the tippers and both through their shared attack strings.

I still find those supposed shield stun safety bypassable via OoS options, but this thread is not the place to debate this. If you wish to continue this, then you can PM me about it xD

EDIT: By bypassable, I mean negiligable. By negiligable, I mean whether there is blockstun or not, I believe at this point in time, Marth is not any more safe from a blocked move than Lucina is. This is to clarify the post, but not intended for people to respond to.

Please take it to PMs with me if you wish to discuss this, DO NOT derail this topic any further.

 

[CherubiKnighT]

I wasn't disagreeing with ya, but Lucina can still do a little more damage where Marth would normally sourspot. You know that sourspots can be worked with as much as I do. Point of the matter is in certain situations when tipping isn't an option and the attack can't be blocked, Lucina will outdamage Marth on those hits. But Marth can rack the damage from the tippers and both through their shared attack strings.

I still find those supposed shield stun safety bypassable via OoS options, but this thread is not the place to debate this. If you wish to continue this, then you can PM me about it xD

This

 

[Emblem Lord]

You don't..."bypass"...math.

 

[EternalFlame]

You don't..."bypass"...math.

Let's not start this again ^^" We've discussed this before, and we know where we both stand. I find it negligable due to cancelling blockstun via OoS options, you do not since blockstun will keep your opponent locked long enough that the followup can't be done. I could be mistaken, but please let's discuss this elsewhere and not bring in an irrelevant topic to the OP.

 

[Conda]

You're overstating the benefit of Lucina hitting close to her versus Marth. It's not a big difference. Also, you're not keeping in mind the moveset - it only ever good to use Marth/Lucina's moveset when spaced far away from your opponent, as your attacks have end lag, aren't multi-hit for the vast majority of moves, and are predictable. You also have no good CQC Jab-like option - like Shulk/Ike/Link that lets them brawl around in footsies.

So with all that said, I believe the benefit of "being able to fight close a tiny bit more efficiently than Marth" isn't much of a benefit at all. It makes no sense to crave that benefit with her moveset.

This is especially true when you look at the alternative, which is: "get extra % and knowckback when you use your moveset in the range where you're most safe/effective/likely to be due to how your moveset is designed."

 

[Emblem Lord]

You cannot cancel blockstun.

Do you...actually know what you are saying?

I'm not trying to be rude. I respect you alot. But I don't think you truly understand what you are typing.

If cancelling blockstun was an actual thing I would never play this game. It would be degenerate trash.

Sometimes I think your desire to not upset Lucina fans makes you say some very strange and untrue things.

 

[EternalFlame]

You're overstating the benefit of Lucina hitting close to her versus Marth. It's not a big difference. Also, you're not keeping in mind the moveset - it only ever good to use Marth/Lucina's moveset when spaced far away from your opponent, as your attacks have end lag, aren't multi-hit for the vast majority of moves, and are predictable. You also have no good CQC Jab-like option - like Shulk/Ike/Link that lets them brawl around in footsies.

So with all that said, I believe the benefit of "being able to fight close a tiny bit more efficiently than Marth" isn't much of a benefit at all. It makes no sense to crave that benefit with her moveset.

This is especially true when you look at the alternative, which is: "get extra % and knowckback when you use your moveset in the range where you're most safe/effective/likely to be due to how your moveset is designed."

I just said we leave this for a separate topic ^^" I put it in a spoiler so we can leave people who don't want to read this out of it. Same thing with Emblem Lord's point

Spoiler

Its stating a simple benefit, but I never once stated that Marth was any inferior nor Lucina superior overall because of it. Lucina is slightly stronger than Marth's sourspot. People already know that Marth is fundamentally stronger due to the tipper, but the purpose of this discussion was to clarify that simple point from earlier. Remember I said if opportunity presents itself when it isn't possible to space, but I never said ideal opportunity, as Marth will clearly win out when spaced correctly. As miniscule the differences are, that can be a deciding point for a player. Now going back to the OP, I agree with his position to choose Lucina over Marth, even though I'm a Marth player myself and I prefer the challenge of tippers and such (and the OP could easily play Marth if he choose to, he's done it in the past already).

What makes sense as the best choice for you does not reflect everyone else's choice, and that was the point people were not getting when this argument was first brought up and I was defending. I'm taking the time to explain in hopes that you can understand this.

You cannot cancel blockstun.

Do you...actually know what you are saying?

I'm not trying to be rude. I respect you alot. But I don't think you truly understand what you are typing.

If cancelling blockstun was an actual thing I would never play this game. It would be degenerate trash.

Sometimes I think your desire to not upset Lucina fans makes you say some very strange and untrue things.

Ok ok, let's start from the top, just in case our definitions and where we are is different.

Spoiler

Blockstun, by my own definition, is where you are forced to stay in shield despite the attack's hitbox already passed. Despite this definition, I proposed you can jump or go into a grab as soon as the attack has connected with your shield, thus cancelling the blockstun. This has been done in the past when people just block a move and immediately go into a grab for example, but perhaps the blockstun was so insignificant that it doesn't matter.

I just tested it with a friend using Ganon's FSmash (which has a lot of blockstun), and as far as I can tell, you can block a move and jump as the attack makes contact with the shield and go into something. The frames it cuts off from the shield stun is a fraction, and I can OoS grab Ganon by timing the grab as the hit connects, but not if I allow the blockstun to take its course before grabbing (this was done by letting go of the shield button as the shield stun commenced, then tapping the grab button till I was able to grab). However, the blockstun tested the way I did does also mean that there's the time that the shield has to drop too, so I could very well be wrong. But there is a pushback from certain moves when a move is blocked, like from blocking an FSmash for example. Whether you cancel the shield or not is irrelevant, as you will be pushed back by the move anyways and make it hard to followup. When I tested the jump cancel, it does similar by showing the pushback, but I'm not entirely sure how much of the blockstun was canceled as my reflex may not be fast enough to test this properly (so more testing will be needed). If I Forward SH, I close the distance, stop the pushback, and am close enough to sourspot FAir him.

So based on this, Ganon's FSmash is pretty hefty and gives a lot of shield stun, and yet we're able to retaliate rather quickly even when there's pushback involved from the block. So most of the blockstun in this game is not as long a blockstun as Ganon's, but you can jump out/grab as long as the shield is still considered active. Why I usually call it shield cancelling, since it seems to cut down the time or at least maximize your chance of quick retaliation as soon as the attack makes contact with a shield. I say the blockstun is negligible is due to this option of quick retaliation, and its particularly bad if Marth must sourspot to get that blockstun, as that leaves him open to fast Up B stuff. But you need fast reaction time to capitalize, and you need to negate the pushback as best as possible.

If the blockstun is still present, then its a really small set of frames to be trapped in for either character, and jumping out of shield is much faster than dropping shield, so that maximizes your time to quickly retaliate as long as you've got the right hitbox to do it. Whether the blockstun is present or not, the safety from blockstun is still iffy in my books because of the said reason above. Like, if there's some gameplay of Lucina's being punished and Marth not for the conditions of blockstun despite this, I'd like to see it then we can let this go to rest.

Defending Lucina is one thing, but derailing this thread any more is not fair to anyone, especially the OP :/ Say what you will about my current thought process (call it wrong even if that's what you wish), but please guys, let's bring this to PMs and let people comment on here for the right reasons.

 

[LimitCrown]

I don't think you can cancel shieldstun at all. Even if you try to jump out of shield after being hit by a strong attack, you won't be able to act out of it immediately unless you perfect-shielded the attack.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Shieldstun and blockstun are the same thing. It just doesn't last all that long in this game even for powerful attacks besides moves like Falcon Punch, etc.

This had nothing to do with Marcina. Just something that I definitely wanted to make very clear. You can buffer an action during shieldstun and on the very first frame you will perform that action which is great for punishing, but you can't cancel blockstun.

 

[EternalFlame]

To prevent this from going any further, I'll take the convos to PMs myself (@ Conda , if you however want to continue, you have to PM me, as it is still your turn to say something to my point). I would like to discuss these things further, but this will be an endless cycle of derailing the topic if I do it here. I'll say it one last time, and please guys, if nothing else just listen to this:

Back on topic people, back on topic

 

[Dragonhunter970]

As in smash or awakening?

 

[DrCactus]

Good thread, Broly. I agree with your reasoning on choosing Lucina over Marth.
I agree Marth is better than Lucina, but I prefer Lucina as a character over Marth (many may disagree, and I understand why), and well, if Lucina wasn't around I wouldn't be playing Marth anyway.
I've been practicing with her recently, but your gameplay really encouraged me to keep at it.

But man, is it weird from going from Heavys like DK and Bowser to somebody like Lucina :v

 

[dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523]

**** Lucina and Marth, Ike is the best. I can feel the pain of Lucina mains as I've been told for years that I should pick Marth over Roy, but Roy is one of the biggest swaggin lords in the series, and his father is the biggest swaggin dude in the whole series next to Marcus and Levin.

Ike's behind Roy, of course, but we just need to wait on his DLC.

 

[eshu125]

Lucina main: Hey, I chose lucina for my own reasons and tbh both characters suck **** anyways so who cares which one I play

Marth mains: Nah bro Marth is better.

/facepalm

 

[Locuan]

Guys keep this thread on topic. Do not derail this topic into X topic is better than Y topic. If it keeps up I will be forced to lock this thread.

 

[Tino]

Lucina is, in fact, one of my mains in the game mainly because I absolutely enjoyed her character and the role she played in during Awakening and since then she was one of my most wanted newcomers for the game (next to Rosalina).

And I do prefer her over Marth to be honest but he's also great too.

 

[ShenCS]

Sorry if this sounds impertinent, but considering most of the OP is about why Broly chose Lucina over Marth, wouldn't discussing their differences be on-topic? Genuinely asking, as I haven't been on these boards in years.
Anyway, questions for Broly: I noticed you throwing out, and landing, a great number of f-smashes. While it has a great speedower:range spread, what baffled me most was how many of them went unpunished, considering it's deplorable endlag. I found myself questioning whether or not Lucina's f-smash may actually be more practical than Marth's considering how many you landed point blank and how it became a far more reliable edge-guarding tool/trap (and frankly, hearing the commentators talk about Lucina being "really strong" was weird). My question is, how much do you think came from matchup inexperience on your opponent's part and, more importantly, could liberal use of it characterise better Lucina play? Were you reading your opponent every time, or throwing it out there as a Hail Mary or because you knew your opponent wouldn't punish it? If the latter, would you mind sharing some of the things that let you do that?
And as a side-note, I'd just like to add that it was was all kinds of hype watching you play and I can't wait to see it again.

 

[Locuan]

Sorry if this sounds impertinent, but considering most of the OP is about why Broly chose Lucina over Marth, wouldn't discussing their differences be on-topic?

We have a thread that highlights their differences as the first thread pinned to our character board. Additionally, most threads that start talking about their differences end up in flame wars or insults between users. This is why we are trying to avoid those situations.