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Lessons of Mercy, Redemption, and Forgiveness from the Galaxy's Greatest Gunslinger

Fatmanonice

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Link to original post: [drupal=4420]Lessons of Mercy, Redemption, and Forgiveness from the Galaxy's Greatest Gunslinger [/drupal]


I’ve been a fan of Japanese animation (AKA anime) since about 1998 and in that time I’ve come across a large number of great series and movies in the genre. One of my favorites is called Trigun. The series was showed in America on Cartoon Network’s Adult Swim from 2003 to 2005. This was when I first saw it and, even eight years later, I still think it’s one of the best that I’ve ever seen. I recently watched the whole series again about a month ago and I’ve come to realize that the messages the series presents have a surprising amount of depth to them. The main messages of the series revolve around redemption, mercy, and forgiveness and, when I first watched the series, a lot of them went over my head. Now that I’m older, I’m now better able to see those messages and I wanted to take this time to talk about them.

The series follows the travels of Vash the Stampede, an outlaw who has never stolen a thing in his life and who has never deliberately hurt anyone. He’s a pacifist who has a constant craving for donuts and is about as slick with the ladies as a freshly unwrapped tampon. The problem is that, despite his peaceful nature, he’s constantly thrown into situations where his luck runs out and things go terribly wrong. How did he become an outlaw then? He accidently leveled the largest city on the planet during an argument with his brother. Yes, the event was a complete accident but nobody believes him. This started a long chain of miserably unlucky events for him. Wherever he goes, he’s pursued by bounty hunters so even when he tries to lay low, a wave of destruction follows and innocent people get caught in the crossfire. All these events have resulted in his bounty being worth 60 billion dollars. He has unintentionally hurt nearly every person on the planet and is trying his best to make up for all that has happened.

The people that Vash runs into are generally unforgiving because they live on an unforgiving planet. It’s called Gunsmoke and it strongly resembles the Old American West. Except for a few patches of land, the planet is an ever stretching desert with two suns. Water exists deep in the planet but only a few towns have the resources to extract it. All the others have to buy it from “water tycoons” who sell it like gasoline. Of course, there’s plenty of corruption in this market and, if a town can’t dig its own wells, it’s forced to pay high prices or its people are forced to move elsewhere. To add to the planet’s woes, electricity and overall industry in the towns are controlled by technology that is over 200 years old. The main problem with this is that it is very expensive to upkeep because only a few knowledgeable engineers on the planet know how it even works. This need for money explains why Vash has so many pursuers and why even entire towns have held him at gunpoint. Outlaws, bounty hunters, and common people are interchangeable as they all fight just to stay alive.

Despite his outlaw status, Vash often sticks his neck out to try to help people including those that want him dead. Throughout the series, Vash goes from town to town and finds himself face to face with people who feel that they are on the edge of oblivion. There’s an alcoholic who was once a gunsmith until the guns he made were used in the shooting of his wife and son. There’s a woman who watched as her parents slowly went insane and eventually died after they were forced to live in the rubble of the city that Vash accidently destroyed. There’s an old couple that’s pressured on a daily basis to sell their land by outlaws hired by the local government. There’s a young couple that’s trying to escape a caravan that forces their women into prostitution. There’s an outlaw who knows the mayor of his town once lead a massacre and fights for a personal vendetta. There’s a wandering preacher with a dark past and an even darker secret that he’s been trying to run away from all his adult life. Vash always approaches these people with an unusual air of optimism that’s virtually unheard of in this world. He’s a wanted man but he always puts others before himself despite the fact that nobody truly understands the depth of his suffering.

Vash suffers not only because the events that made him an outlaw but because of his twin brother Knives. The story between the two is a futuristic spin on the story of Cain and Abel. Both Vash and Knives are organic androids that strongly resemble humans and were created to help the people who left Earth to colonize new planets. Only a few people, including their adopted mother Rem, treated them like humans while everyone else feared and hated them. Vash, following the kind nature of Rem, learned to forgive his oppressors while Knives let his hatred for humans grow inside him. In an act of betrayal that continues to haunt Vash, Knives triggered a series of events that led to not only the deaths of a vast majority of the humans about to colonize Gunsmoke but Rem as well. The end result was Vash and Knives being stranded in the desert, depending on each other to survive. Knives openly proclaims that he eventually intends to wipe out the rest of the colonists but Vash, despite being filled with hate and pain from the passing of Rem, can’t bring himself to kill him. They live with each other for many decades until one day they have a heated argument and Vash accidently shoots Knives. Feeling pain for the first time, Knives disowns his brother and Vash runs away ashamed as his brother squirms and cries in pain. Many years later, they meet again and Knives causes Vash to accidently destroy the largest city on Gunsmoke, causing Vash to become the most hated and wanted man on the planet.

Vash once thought that his brother died with the destruction of the city but discovers about half way through the series that he’s alive when he comes across a town empty of people and the name “Knives” written in blood on the town’s fountain. Knives sent a band of professional assassins called the Gung Ho Guns to hunt Vash down, knowing full well that Vash refuses to hurt anyone despite being an expert gunslinger. What resulted deepened Vash’s suffering. Trying to ward them off, innocent people were hurt, more small towns were abandoned, the second largest city on Gunsmoke is heavily damaged and a hole is put in one of the planets’ moons when Vash tries to stop one of the Gung-Ho Guns, a testament to the whole planet every night to how dangerous Vash actually is. This was all according to Knives plan to punish Vash for being “weak” and riddle him with guilt for not joining him on his mission to exterminate humanity. As you watch Trigun you realize that Knives’ cruelty actually isn’t all that extreme. Aside from Vash and the two girls who represent a major insurance company on the planet (with Vash being such a huge liability and all) that follow him throughout the series, a vast majority of the characters encountered have hardened hearts, selfish ambitions, or a lack of compassion that makes the viewer realize that the real villain of the series is more than a vengeful brother or a band of mercenaries.

People can be unforgiving; that goes without saying. In times of desperation and loss, people can become truly bitter and cold, making empathy practically impossible. People even sometimes go out of their way to make others’ problems worse for them to vent their frustrations. Vash knows this all too well. Most of Vash’s life has been spent trying to convince people that he doesn’t deserve the title of the most dangerous man on the planet only to be constantly rejected. Even when he saves entire towns, people are suspicious of him. Even when a town’s children treat him like a big brother, people are fearful of him. Despite this, Vash insists on doing good for the people who openly persecute him.

Many things can be learned from Vash the Stampede and the world of Trigun but there are three key points that I think are particularly important. The first is the importance of mercy, even when presented with people who don’t intend to show it at all. Vash is an impeccable gunslinger but he only disarms, never kills. Even when his life is threaten and he’s ambushed by scores of attackers at once, he makes sure that nobody is killed even if his attackers are infamous outlaws who kill for sport. Despite easily having the skill to easily dispatch of anyone who attacks him, he shows control because he doesn’t believe that he should be judge and jury. These are the same people who have made him miserable and an outsider nearly his whole life so why does he show mercy to the merciless?

One of my favorite scenes in the series is when the wandering preacher I mentioned earlier is having a conversation with one of the insurance girls. He carries around a giant cross covered in a tarp and the insurance girl tries to lift it. She asks him why it’s so heavy and he replies “it’s because it’s full of love and mercy.” His response provides a fantastic analogy for love and mercy. Metaphorically speaking, both are “heavy.” It’s hard to love and easy to hate and it does create a burden on the person who shows compassion instead of apathy. To show love and mercy to even the unlovable and merciless is far from an easy path to take. Vash’s life has been a testament to this but there’s a reason why he continues acting the way that he does.

There are some things in life that are worth taking a beating over. In one of the episodes, one of the insurance girls walks in on Vash while he’s not wearing a shirt and it’s revealed that Vash’s body is covered with scars. Some of his wounds are closed by stitches, others by staples, and some by screws. It’s by a small miracle that he doesn’t figuratively and literally come apart at the seams especially with how much dangerous his life is. The reason why he’s in such a rough shape is because of his dedication to being a pacifist. He’s dedicated to keep his promise to Rem even if it means he dies in the process. Again, doing the right thing can be very hard and even have harsh consequences tied to it.

The final important lesson that can be taken from the world of Trigun is that redemption is possible for anyone. Vash meets a lot of people through his journey to find his brother that have checkered pasts and believe that they’ve screwed up too much to ever redeem themselves. You have alcoholics, train robbers, and even assassins who believe that the only way forward is through self-destructive measures. As Vash encounters them, he teaches them that there’s always a way out, it’s just you have to face a different direction to actually see it. Like I mentioned before, changing yourself and getting out of your bad habits is anything but easy with the one of the hardest things to do is admit your faults and how you were wrong. As Vash shows, some of the best people you can meet in life are those that point out your faults but do so with genuine concern for your future. The road to redemption is literally paved with blood, sweat, and tears but with as many that have been shed to get into the ruts that people sometimes find themselves in, I would say that it’s a fair sacrifice.

It’s funny what all you can learn from a space western about an eccentric gunman who feels faint at even the sight of blood, eh? The series has plenty of action and comedy to satisfy even people who are completely turned off by anime but I hope I have shown that the series is worth looking into aside from its entertainment value. In a genre that’s often loaded with violence, Vash comes off as a bit of a revolutionary for his stances on nonviolence, compromise, and seeing that all life has value to it. In a dried up, dusty world filled with people whose hearts and minds can be described the same way, Vash is something of a wandering oasis, refreshing those he comes across and bringing newfound life to where there previously wasn’t any. He’s quirky to be sure but he believes his world is filled with love and peace and wants others to realize it too. Much like water on the planet, it has to be worked and sacrificed for and these lessons can just as easily be applied to our own lives.

Fatmanonice, July 1st, 2011

“Treat those who are good with goodness, and also treat those who are not good with goodness. Thus goodness is attained.” –Lao Tzu

“It is easy to hate and it is difficult to love. This is how the whole scheme of things works. All good things are difficult to achieve; and bad things are very easy to get.” –Rene Descartes

“The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.” –Mahatma Gandhi
 

Everlasting Laughter

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As far as forgiveness it never feels good to hate so why hurt yourself and do the right thing.

A fair world isn't fair because if it was perfectly fair we would all lose an arm if someone else did to make us all equal. Don't do whats fair but what's right
 

Alien Vision

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I highly disagree OP. As much as it feels great to hold innocence as a human being; there will be people out there who will have no consciousness towards us. These people see us as objects, and themselves as God. They will stop at nothing to seek their prey as if it was merely a game. This world will always have chaos. It's what balances things out. Corruption is the perfect contribution to imperfection. Nature has crackhead moments. I have even seen my dog attempt to suffocate one of her baby puppies because they were born abnormal.

Instinct /=/ morality. Especially if it's a human being who has nothing to look up to but a life comprised of rushes and adrenaline. Apparently, killing is better than having sex. From what you hear from infamous serial killers. You see how much guys like sex. ;o

I apologize OP, I understand how you wish for peace, but there will never be peace. Only logical peace, by confronting a problem head on rather than let it get out of hand. Chaos is why we can see the light. Without two oppositions - we wouldn't be able to comprehend anything for what it is. These opposites coincide to give definition to things around us. We need attribute A to understand the elements of attribute B.

Even humans. We are all different; but those with a logical mind contribute to something. Don't we? There are some things we just can't change about this world. Sometimes we tend to only look at the bad things in this world, and over emphasise the good of this world. We never balance out the two different effects. We always go for one or the other. Never do we actually look at negative, and positive as a whole. Just like the sun and the moon. The moon shines because of the sun's light is reflected off the moon's surface.

Just something I wished to provide. Take it as you will. It's merely an opinion. Just remember. You can kill a human being who is threatening to take away something time will never give you back, and every ounce of your moral rightousness will never be able to support the impact in the end. You will STILL be a man of honor, and one who is innocent. You killed a man who wasn't even a human being. You are a guardian; a protector. If you would've let this man go because you didn't want to kill him. The people he kills after that. Who are you going to blame then? See where I am getting at?

Humans are like a fruit. If you don't nurture them, they will soon rot. Not everyone can change OP. We have a fight or flight instinct for a reason damn it.
 

Fatmanonice

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I think you missed the point of this essay. I never said that the world would be without chaos. My point wasn't that if you try hard enough, peace will exist all throughout the world, it's that trying to live morally and peacefully is hard because, as you said, there are plenty of people in the world that couldn't care less and live for the sake of self preservation and self gratification. In a way morality doesn't make logical sense unless doing so directly benefits us but there are still people who do it anyways, like Vash, and have their faces pushed in the dirt over and over again.

Also, I mentioned in the essay that morality has strings attached to it at times. Vash refuses to kill but towns still get destroyed by the people he lets go. He shows mercy but it bites him in the butt, especially later in the series. I think you think I'm trying to present an easy answer to problems in life but in the reality of things there are no easy answers. I'm not as idealistic/naive as you present me to be and I'm fully aware of the human condition. People suck, there's no doubt about that but we still have the choice in how we respond to this fact.
 

Alien Vision

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I think you missed the point of this essay. I never said that the world would be without chaos. My point wasn't that if you try hard enough, peace will exist all throughout the world, it's that trying to live morally and peacefully is hard because, as you said, there are plenty of people in the world that couldn't care less and live for the sake of self preservation and self gratification. In a way morality doesn't make logical sense unless doing so directly benefits us but there are still people who do it anyways, like Vash, and have their faces pushed in the dirt over and over again.

Also, I mentioned in the essay that morality has strings attached to it at times. Vash refuses to kill but towns still get destroyed by the people he lets go. He shows mercy but it bites him in the butt, especially later in the series. I think you think I'm trying to present an easy answer to problems in life but in the reality of things there are no easy answers. I'm not as idealistic/naive as you present me to be and I'm fully aware of the human condition. People suck, there's no doubt about that but we still have the choice in how we respond to this fact.
I apologize for any impressions I made that insulted you. That was not my intention whatsoever. I was merely stating a few pieces of my perspective to open up a different view for you - just incase you didn't see the world as I presented it. I never was implying that you were naive in any shape or form.

Morality is defined in many different ways. It's hard to justify what is right to do, and what is wrong to do - when people see it in many different ways. That things in our lives operate through intricate webs. That is all I was stating. ^^
 

Fatmanonice

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Morality, in the grand scheme of things, can be described as subjective, yes, but that's a quagmire of philosophical discussion that I don't know if I want to get into on here. :laugh: Morality is an abstract idea and with it people "abstract" their own ideas from the basic concept of it. As Friedrich Nietzsche once said "You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist." Sometimes it's scary how roundabout philosophy can be and how, if you go deep enough into it, you come to conclusions you never wished you had reached.
 

Alien Vision

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Yes. Philosophy at the depth you speak of - is for those who are brave enough to venture past the boundaries we were only taught to see. To roam around a world you have never been taught to understand can be daunting, and may cause you to twist things around too much at first. When we are angry or upset we throw tantrums losing control over ourselves. We do this with knowledge aswell. When we try to manifest something completely oblivious to the core production of this world and the elements that are presented; it can be a very tough quest. The answer is to understand what lies behind reality's curtains. The key is to manifest what you are forced to burden afterwards. Such as a marriage, or a death of a loved one. We know that there will be things that will burden us to a whole new level; to be prepared for what lies ahead. This is exactly how we progress in life.

I understand what you mean by those ''answers'' we come across that we wish weren't true. Like how we can't change everyone. Like how we can't save those we once knew - who were a big part of our lives - from their inevitable doom. Morality nor instinct exists when someone is faced with something they can't accept. I wish I knew what to call this. Perhaps you have the word for this mindset people succumb to? I want to say ignorance, but that wouldn't be nice. Lol.
 

Johnknight1

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Forgiveness is letting wrongs against yourself blow away with the wind, and to never let what happened leave your mind, but never letting the anger have a second wind. (that sounds cheesy, doesn't it!?)

Morality ultimately is sticking to what you believe, within certain limits. Obviously I think we can all agree killing someone for no reason is immoral, and there are many universal immoral things, but many things come from our viewpoints. Like how there is a difference between accepting that truly evil things happen, and letting them happen.

Truly, what we're born believing, what we're taught that we accept as truth, what we're taught that we accept as lies, our basic principles in life is ultimately our morals (I'm not getting into any nature vs. nurture debate, but rather accepting what I feel from both sides are truth). Yet, learning from others whom have much knowledge and experience is where we can ultimately craft a greater moral and principle understanding of what is truly wrong and right for ourselves individually, along with a further understand of what other people view of that, including ourselves consciously and unconsciously.

Sorry if that's off the topic a bit, but I felt like adding that. Overall great post. I haven't seen much of Trigun, but some of it reminds me of like an anti-Death Note. or an anti-The Godfather trilogy. How turning on yourself and who you are without any good reason and for mere selfish desires can end up destroying you, no matter how well you justify them. Much of what your saying also reminds me of the classic anti-war book/film (and the remake as well), All Quiet on the Western Front and the morality of what is happening at that place in time (which is World War I in Germany), and why exactly the main character and his friends are fighting to kill the French soldiers, and why the war even happened. (maybe a bit off topic...)
 

Alien Vision

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Interesting read, Knight.

I see how people have a deeper pride they choose to burden no matter how crazy it sounds to people like me - who believes that if something were to occur that threatened me or anyone else, my actions were to bend every moral I have; to act not through instinct - but through what I believe is right.

Humans choose things that make them feel right. Even if it's choosing a moral that lets the mightiest of evil free to roam once again. It's very hard to understand how or why these people have this kind of moral even when it actually sounds selfish in a way. (A man doesn't want to mar his purity; so he let's another man who murdered his family go. May this man kill on another day, for this man who wanted to be pure; has set him free once again) I am trying to put all this into a perspective I can understand, Knight. It's really hard when I see that - those who follow people like the main character of Trigun - are causing destruction, while those who think like me - that would exterminate these animals; are protecting everyone.

I really would like to hear more of your input Knight. I am trying fullheartedly to understand this moral, it's rather tough.
 

Mr.Jackpot

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That was a really good read, even though there were a few spoilers. I'm going to try and watch this whole series now.
 

Fatmanonice

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Interesting read, Knight.

I see how people have a deeper pride they choose to burden no matter how crazy it sounds to people like me - who believes that if something were to occur that threatened me or anyone else, my actions were to bend every moral I have; to act not through instinct - but through what I believe is right.

Humans choose things that make them feel right. Even if it's choosing a moral that lets the mightiest of evil free to roam once again. It's very hard to understand how or why these people have this kind of moral even when it actually sounds selfish in a way. (A man doesn't want to mar his purity; so he let's another man who murdered his family go. May this man kill on another day, for this man who wanted to be pure; has set him free once again) I am trying to put all this into a perspective I can understand, Knight. It's really hard when I see that - those who follow people like the main character of Trigun - are causing destruction, while those who think like me - that would exterminate these animals; are protecting everyone.

I really would like to hear more of your input Knight. I am trying fullheartedly to understand this moral, it's rather tough.
Sometimes it just comes down to a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" kind of situation with morality . In the case with Vash, there really isn't an easy way out. If he killed the people he who persued him, he'd be labeled as even more dangerous and then even worse imitators would come along to try to prove that they are him. Something I didn't mention in the essay is that Vash has become a universal scapegoat of sorts. So many different outlaws claim to be Vash the Stampede that, at the beginning of the series at least, nobody even knows what exactly he looks like. You have people going around shooting up towns, they just claim that they're Vash and the blame gets put on someone else. Vash stops criminals by disarming them or having them taken care of by local authorities but some do slip through his fingers anyways. I imagine that Batman has the same problem. :laugh:

In short, you may eliminate the problem but it will sooner or later come back regardless of how you decide to deal with the situation. It's like with war: you kill someone and then their children/neighbors/friends will grow up with the vendetta to kill you. You're killed and it happens with your connetions. It's literally a vicious cycle in every sense.

That was a really good read, even though there were a few spoilers. I'm going to try and watch this whole series now.
Yeah, I tried to keep them to a minimum but I think I managed pretty well with only revealing one major spoiler, the fact that Vash isn't human and actually hundreds of years old.
 

Alien Vision

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Not really. This man could come after you again. Not only that. He will kill even more people. Imagine in reality. These people who know of this man, fearing him to death. Imagine how psychologically ****ed up they will become. Imagine the stress, and the paranoia building up inside of them knowing he is back on the streets.

Letting a man go because of this moral - is sacrificing other lives that really matter in life. These people who prey on people with a conscious mind are doing nothing to contribute to life. Why should this moral stand as a legit moral if it causes only harm, and only benefits you as a person, when you could've killed a man - when you had the chance to save alot of people's lives. People will finally get their closure, and to get on with their lives. Tell me how this moral stands, when it is convoluted. How can you say everyone deserves to live, when letting this man go is actually getting people killed. For what? To make yourself feel pure?

Please, help me understand this. I just cannot begin to fathom this. I can feel the pain, and the fear people have to suffer when they hear their man is on the streets again. For what? Not because he escaped. Not because he turned into a better man. No. It's because people like you wanted to feel better about themselves as a human being, and let them free so they can slaughter more people when you could've done the entire world a favor and exterminate them. I know their parents will hate that, but sometimes you have to do what you know will be the best result. This is my best choice. Kill one man who isn't doing anything but destroying other perfectly normal lives of people, or let this man go so he can kill alot more people. I chose the first one.

I just cannot understand this moral. I tried really hard, but so much factors point to killing as the best choice. Letting them go will torture so many people, while you sit there and feel a little tickle in your tummy.
 

Fatmanonice

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Like I said, he doesn't completely let them go. In the series, what usually happens is that Vash gives them over to the local law enforcement. Sometimes other people kill them but they generally end up getting killed themselves. He stops them without killing them. I'm sorry if it sounded like he does absolutely nothing. *suddenly realizes that he's basically acting like a defense attorney for a cartoon character*
 

Alien Vision

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Like I said, he doesn't completely let them go. In the series, what usually happens is that Vash gives them over to the local law enforcement. Sometimes other people kill them but they generally end up getting killed themselves. He stops them without killing them. I'm sorry if it sounded like he does absolutely nothing. *suddenly realizes that he's basically acting like a defense attorney for a cartoon character*
Sorry. Maybe I am getting a bit too personal. I just really hate it when something seems like it can only be backed up by morals, but when I state something that cannot be denied. The moral still stands. I am like. o...O What? How is this possible? This is ludicrous! (Goes out of my mind). Don't mind me. I respect you as a person, it's just hard to understand this moral. Maybe there is something I am misunderstanding? Is that possible?
 

Alien Vision

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Maybe but I appreciate the discussion and your responses are probably some of the most throught provoking feedback I've gotten for one of my essays in a long time.
Yes. I tend to overthink things too. If you ever wish to discuss other things. Feel free to PM me, and I promise to be humble. I only yell and cuss when I make a rant when it comes to my opinions. I took pleasure in sharing a discussion with you, aswell as Knight. ^^ Until then, I bid you adieu.
 
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Ahhh Trigun, it was a pretty good show I have to admit. Though some parts still do urk me, I wonder what you think of
Vash having to kill Blue D Summers (hope I remembered that) and the Spider Butterfly philosophy Trigun presented.
 

Super_Sonic8677

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Great read OP, And to Alien Vision, the heartless people you described is embodied in Vash's Brother Knives who wants nothing but to have the whole entire planet to himself and his brother. He kills or has killed over half of the human population before they even land on planet gunsmoke, thousands die due to his fight with Vash in July.

Knive's showed no sympathy for Vash losing his closest companion, Rem and then nonchalantley killed off many of the people Vash knew. Rem's grandson which caused the first real battle and the destruction of the first city (July). Knive's is a selfish human being who wants to have things his way and absolutely despises everyone that exists aside from Vash.

The spider or the butterfly was a great point Nameless and it was one the OP already went over. That no matter what choces you make, there is no choice that benifits everyone. Someone has to have a bad outcome. Things in real life often end bittersweet, and that's at best.

The real world is a hard place, but it is what you make of it to. Your outlook on life greatly affects how your life goes. And in Trigun, a harsh unforgiving world where you see the side of people they'd have reather kept hidden more often than not, Vash is a change of pace. He takes a positive take on things no matter what, but is still naive about how things are or more accurately, selfish. Until the time he has to
kill Bluesummers
It's a perioid of growth for Vash in the time between that and his final confrontation with his brother. He becomes more realistic about his life philosophy, and ends up leaving the red coat behind (his symbol of following what Rem taught him) at the end of the series.

It's hard to be good. And it's easy to be bad. But sometimes a little bad can't be helped in a world that is far from good.

And so by the end Vash was a little more like Wolfwood (the cross-weapon carrying preacher) and Wolfwood was a little more like Vash. lol
 

Alien Vision

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The spider or the butterfly was a great point Nameless and it was one the OP already went over. That no matter what choces you make, there is no choice that benifits everyone. Someone has to have a bad outcome. Things in real life often end bittersweet, and that's at best.
Sonic. How can you not tell me this doesn't sound a bit illogical? Saving a man who is capable of slaughtering again - causing terror in those who are well aware of his slaughters he has committed. For what? So you can feel a little tickle in your tummy, like you did something great? This makes no sense. People who deserve to live get killed because of this man, and killing him is the best option. Everything else is just letting an old flame do more damage than it should've done. This moral turns you into a vicarious murderer.

It's hard to be good. And it's easy to be bad. But sometimes a little bad can't be helped in a world that is far from good.
It's also impossible to define what is good and bad. Everyone sees it differently. Every answer is just another question.

The real world is a hard place, but it is what you make of it to.
Letting a man live - that you know is just going to kill again so you can protect this self image of yourself - is selfish. Killing this man is honor, and restoring peace in any perspective you wish to see it as. I already stated the outcomes of the two choices, and my choice is so much more logical. Why would you sit there and not kill a man who has done nothing to contribute to life - just to go back and continue what he was doing? Thats simply preposterous. As I said before. You are encouraging darkness for a selfish moral. It doesn't benefit you in any way at all. It just protects your purity, when you could protect several others from actually dying.

I am trying hard to understand this moral, but everything I think of completely justifies it as ridiculous. When pitbulls lose their minds - do you lock them up? No. You put them to sleep. Locking people up that will never gain an ounce of consciousness back - is wasting space for real people who need to be punished; knowing they actually have a conscious somewhere. There are humans who have rotted beyond the boundaries of what makes us human. They will never learn. They will never contribute. All they will do is hunt, shed blood, and persist to kill innocent people. When you sit there allowing this monster to continue - is just ignorant by all means in any definition of instinct or morals. I even bet you that if you were to face this situation for yourself, you would quickly turn into a hypocrite and end up killing a man.

You may have this pure consciousness now, but wait til you have to suffer through their psychological torture. Wait til your family member is murdered in cold blood. Wait til you are hunted down by somebody you could've finished off.

Just wait..
 
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But what if that killer still has a chance of redemption? I see you already giving up on them before the battle is even fought. Though their are risks to such a belief, Some people do believe in second chances, even for a supposed *Cold- blooded killer*.
 

Alien Vision

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But what if that killer still has a chance of redemption? I see you already giving up on them before the battle is even fought. Though their are risks to such a belief, Some people do believe in second chances, even for a supposed *Cold- blooded killer*.
I have gone through alot in my life. I have been alone nearly my entire life actually. Full of deception. Backstabbing. Cheating. My mother is possibly sick because of biochemical wars. I experienced alot of darkness. I was blamed for things I didn't do. It was a terrible childhood. I never once considered to kill another human being though. I never can see a reason as to why I would want to. A person who kills an innocent being who was doing great in their lives wasting those years of beauty - do not deserve another chance. If they killed one person, there is some understanding possibly. If they went on a killing spree, and caused years of chaos. They need to be exterminated before they kill even more people who are actually human. My point here is: Why would you let a man you know has killed several people go, just so you can feel better about yourself. That is selfish, and you are forming a silent alliance with the monster. This is simply illogical. A chance of redemption for the sacrifice of perfectly normal citizens?
 
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I have gone through alot in my life. I have been alone nearly my entire life actually. Full of deception. Backstabbing. Cheating. My mother is possibly sick because of biochemical wars. I experienced alot of darkness. I was blamed for things I didn't do. It was a terrible childhood. I never once considered to kill another human being though. I never can see a reason as to why I would want to. A person who kills an innocent being who was doing great in their lives wasting those years of beauty - do not deserve another chance. If they killed one person, there is some understanding possibly. If they went on a killing spree, and caused years of chaos. They need to be exterminated before they kill even more people who are actually human. My point here is: Why would you let a man you know has killed several people go, just so you can feel better about yourself. That is selfish, and you are forming a silent alliance with the monster. This is simply illogical. A chance of redemption for the sacrifice of perfectly normal citizens?
I may not know the true gravity of all your life's suffering but I don't see how it pertains to this except possibly why you think the way you do.

I will admit I wouldn't take the risk of many lives just so one can possibly can become fit for society's today terms, but as I said, people believe that the gamble can pay off. A pelicular thing you said about the reasons why in the right mind a person would let a serial killer go. I don't believe that person should act on the whim of *what feels good* etc etc. However using Vash as an example, Whenever he allows a person to live, he always believes that their might be a possibility that they might change. Though there are many great risks to this that many people might consider illogical, He might consider a shot well worth taking.

I don't see how this is all really selfish, and logic I consider is, like other things, in the eye of the beholder.
 

Alien Vision

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Yes. You are correct about why I stated an idea involving my past. To show you that a human shouldn't want to kill no matter what, especially when it's somebody they don't even know. When they are too much of a coward to take down their prey like a man. Knife? Sword? Gun? Against somebody who is weaponless? That is sickening.

It is illogical. Why? It's common sense to kill a man who is not doing anything but tearing away at our world mocking at our existence as if they were some sort of God. As I said. I can feel the pain and sorrow in these people's souls knowing that people like you have the chance to finally put a rest to their worries. Yet you let these monsters go, for one of the most ridiculous reasons. You really cannot back up your moral without endless rhetor; when I am stating true facts that are as solid as they can get. I would kill a man anyday if they broke in my house with a gun, or a knife threatening to take away something from me that time will never give me back. I will kill them humbly, as in - I won't stab them when they are already dead. I will exterminate them respectively - for what they have become, for what they have caused. That is a true warrior. Not somebody who sacrifices any more potential lives just because they have a moral that only has one little tiny positive side to it, while all this negativity is unleashed. I will say this again. You can sit there and act like you are some sort of monk of peace and prosperity - but we all have a monster inside of us, aswell as a shadow. Don't be a hypocrite.

Example: Kid A is playing a game and is winning against Kid B. Kid B gets upset and cries that he is losing, whilst Kid A tells Kid B ''Calm down. It's just a game''

*Next day*

Kid B finally regained his composure, and started thinking of new ways to improve. Once they started another game - Kid B started kicking Kid A's ***. Who's the one crying now?

Humans have tunnel vision. They tend to think clearly when they are in their house comfortable as can be. Everything changes when they become angry; sad. When they lose something - forced to face reality and the burdens that follow it.

We all have a mask that takes over us. These people that deserve to die has let this mask take over them. They will forever shed blood, and terrorize unless you do something about it. Therefore this is illogical, and is proven by common sense. This isn't about instinct, or whats right. This is about survival, and cleansing of the rotten. This is about making a hard choice to kill someone. They really have nothing else going for them in the future - but endless hell. You would do everyone a favor by nullifying them of their time on Earth.
 

Sieguest

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A friend of mine showed me this blog, a very nice read. And the ensuing discussion is also interesting. But I can't help but disagree with Alien Vision.
It is illogical. Why? It's common sense to kill a man who is not doing anything but tearing away at our world mocking at our existence as if they were some sort of God.

No. These are your own seemingly altruistic ideas showing through. It would only be "common sense" to go through this action if you subscribed to utilitarian ideas. By the same token the same attributes I've placed on this part of your post could also be placed on one who says "Why not just seclude the man?"
As I said. I can feel the pain and sorrow in these people's souls knowing that people like you have the chance to finally put a rest to their worries. Yet you let these monsters go, for one of the most ridiculous reasons. You really cannot back up your moral without endless rhetor; when I am stating true facts that are as solid as they can get.

Since when was "If you let a killer go, he will go back to killing," cold hard fact? That's just like if I had a spinner with 99 blue spaces and 1 red space and I said, "The spinner will always land on a blue space". Nothing with any moral grounding could ever be asserted as cold hard fact. One would say "What about killing a person just for the heck of it? How is that not wrong?" Yet I ask you this, who prescribes "right" and "wrong" and does everyone follow this same personage/idea? If the action was objectively wrong, then why would they perform it? And by what authority are you given to administer judgment on another? One could try making the argument that it could be like math, where an objective answer exists and it is possible to be objectively wrong, the difference here is that the nature of math is from something empirical, unlike morals.
I would kill a man anyday if they broke in my house with a gun, or a knife threatening to take away something from me that time will never give me back.

That's something of a different nature, killing in defense of your own self is on a different plane than killing due to your own altruism.
I will kill them humbly, as in - I won't stab them when they are already dead. I will exterminate them respectively - for what they have become, for what they have caused. That is a true warrior. Not somebody who sacrifices any more potential lives just because they have a moral that only has one little tiny positive side to it, while all this negativity is unleashed.
You say this as if you aren't basing your own argument from morality, which in fact, you are. Also, what difference does it make in how you kill them? Killing is killing, a death is just what it is, a death. You say you would exterminate those who would venture to take so many lives, but if you had the ability to follow through with that, then at some point, you yourself will be the taker of many lives, are you then not also a serial killer?
I will say this again. You can sit there and act like you are some sort of monk of peace and prosperity - but we all have a monster inside of us, aswell as a shadow. Don't be a hypocrite.
I don't think anyone is, just because they take a view that does not involve taking the life of one who as taken many does not necessitate that they have the mindset you prescribe to them. Also to go as far as to say that we have a monster inside us, don't you feel that's a bit much? However that's another topic for another day.

Humans have tunnel vision. They tend to think clearly when they are in their house comfortable as can be. Everything changes when they become angry; sad. When they lose something - forced to face reality and the burdens that follow it.
That's a blanket statement, how can you prove that every single human being on the face of the planet is like this? Simply, you can't, and falling back on anecdotes doesn't prove it either, as all it takes is another anecdote to counter it.

We all have a mask that takes over us. These people that deserve to die has let this mask take over them. They will forever shed blood, and terrorize unless you do something about it. Therefore this is illogical, and is proven by common sense. This isn't about instinct, or whats right. This is about survival, and cleansing of the rotten. This is about making a hard choice to kill someone. They really have nothing else going for them in the future - but endless hell. You would do everyone a favor by nullifying them of their time on Earth.
This is just like saying that the only way to acquire an answer of 4 mathematically is to do 2+2. But what about 2*2 or the derivative of the function 4x? or an *insert a plethora of ways to get 4 here*. In this same way there are other ways to deal with people of a "killing nature" besides just killing, to assert otherwise is tunnel visioned, a prime example backing this being life in prison.
 

Alien Vision

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I respect the time you put into countering what I have said, and I do take pleasure in having a discussion of our different views. Let me start off with the idea that you are still looking at these killers as if they are still human, when they are not. They are monsters who coward in fear. They completely went insane - to create their own leverage that eased their psychological pain. So what you are saying is ''We should give this man a chance to find redemption even though he killed another person that could've contributed something significant to this world?'' What about when pregnant women get killed? Little kids get *****, and slaughtered afterwards? The pain and sorrow the families go through because of this? You really think your moral is logical? These people shouldn't be killing in the first place. I understand accidents, but no human should ever wield a knife, a gun, nor a rope to solve their problems; only to defend themselves. NO ONE. Locking them up is wasting space for people who actually have a conscious left. Those who rob. Those who steal. Those who do drugs. Not killers. Not monsters. They need to be exterminated. They have nothing left. Killing them will shed light once more. This moral is nothing but another way for you to rebel against the mainstream. To feel special. It is selfish. No math equation that you have will ever say otherwise.

A killer is always a killer. Stop being like my father who can't see how messed up his son is. It is only letting an old fire destroy more than it should. You are a vicarious murderer by being so naive - protecting these mindless animals. This world would be more logically at peace if it wasn't for you people who act like you wouldn't kill these people no matter what. I say bull****. Our instinct plays a role far deeper than our conscious mind. Wait til you are faced with this darkness you want to nurture. Wait til they play games with your life, and the lives around you. You will find out how much of a hypocrite you are.

This is why it is fact. These people are NOTHING. They contribute to NOTHING. They took away EVERYTHING. From a SOMEBODY. Why is it so hard for you to get this through your head? Stop with the endless rhetor. Take a moment and try to feel the pain - the suffering of these unfortunate families.. Imagine their kid being shot in cold blood. Imagine them holding their child they always wanted in their arms dying. IMAGINE the tears, the psychological damage they suffer through. IMAGINE what was going through the kid's mind lying there soon to die. When he was aiming for a future.. When he was going to live a long successful life. How can you look at all this! Then say this monster DESERVES to live. Tell me! You are a monster to say this man deserves to live. You are encouraging a hellstorm. Why do you do this? People who get locked up could always find a way to escape. This will forever haunt those who were a victim. This isn't about math! This is about destroying what needs to be destroyed. Why let something live when it will always persist with it's own morals that it created - that only does harm! Your moral is just as bad as theirs. You have no common sense to see how insane your way of seeing things are.

Trigun was an anime. Rurouni Kenshin was an anime. THIS IS REALITY. People who made those shows like Bones, where Booth won't kill his friend who is insane. They made these shows out of their own conscious mind. Imagine if they were to make these shows if they lost everything by one of these monsters? Everything would change! You look at it as a conscious mind. Try looking at it at a psychological perspective.

Lol. Just go watch Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe 8D

Seriously though. You are playing with fire my friend. You persist to use math, and endless rhetor aswell as monsterous ambiguity. You still cannot explain why you persist to not kill these monsters when they are wasting space on Earth for people who actually have a conscious mind! I am trying really hard to see your moral as legit. It's still remains illogical, and simply ludicrous.

Face it! Everyone has done something bad. What these animals did was something beyond bad. There is no words to describe the anguish that these monsters ensued. We will always have a shadow, and a monster that sleeps inside of us. Don't be a coward, and face the truth. Don't tell me you never get angry. Don't tell me you haven't made any mistakes in your life. You will lose all credibility with me.

This world would be at peace, if it wasn't for you ''monks'' who believe in only peace. Ironic huh? This further explains my ''Imperfection - Perfection''. You won't admit you have a darker side, therefore you continue to spout out stuff that is only making this world worse.

I tried. I failed to see any light in this ridiculous moral. I apologize. :/
 
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I'm afraid you've already crossed into the dangerous lands of assumptions and the fact the humans can know truth.

I'm afraid it seems though what you see is what you consider the absolute truth. However this world isn't such black and white as you may see it. There are many endless views morals and backwards thoughts that can come up. There is no way to tell which one is true, right or however you want to call it. People can come up with stuff that only makes sense to them, and you really can't tell them if it's true ot not. You say this isn't about right and wrong, but you are saying it is RIGHT to kill them.

Back to the real discussion, I'm afraid you still missed the most important point I was really making. That the reason people let this "monster" live is that they believe HE/SHE
should have a 2nd chance to redeem yourself. However you say they will just continue to destroy this world in a self destructive manner which leads back to assumptions.

Last post for me in this thread lol, If anything else Alien you can just PM me for more discussion. If I seemed negative in any way then I apologize.
 

Super_Sonic8677

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Sonic. How can you not tell me this doesn't sound a bit illogical? Saving a man who is capable of slaughtering again - causing terror in those who are well aware of his slaughters he has committed. For what? So you can feel a little tickle in your tummy, like you did something great? This makes no sense. People who deserve to live get killed because of this man, and killing him is the best option. Everything else is just letting an old flame do more damage than it should've done. This moral turns you into a vicarious murderer.

But that was Vash's philosophy at the start. Wolfwood argued the exact same thing you are arguing and Vash's philosophy was that it is not our place to outright kill anyone.




It's also impossible to define what is good and bad. Everyone sees it differently. Every answer is just another question.

You're arguing just to argue here. Good as defined as doing the best and most positive that you believe that you can in the world that works against. Is there really a point in argueing the deffinition of good and bad when philosphocially it's been done so many times? It was simple just to put what I put I guess I should have said that and what I'm saying now instead. Going down this road makes Knives just as right as Vash in the end. Life's has no meaning. Nothing has any meaning when everything goes down to opinion. In the end the strong are the right and the weak are the wrong then because they have the power to enforce what they see as "right" I'd rather look at it more practically.

Letting a man live - that you know is just going to kill again so you can protect this self image of yourself - is selfish. Killing this man is honor, and restoring peace in any perspective you wish to see it as. I already stated the outcomes of the two choices, and my choice is so much more logical. Why would you sit there and not kill a man who has done nothing to contribute to life - just to go back and continue what he was doing? Thats simply preposterous. As I said before. You are encouraging darkness for a selfish moral. It doesn't benefit you in any way at all. It just protects your purity, when you could protect several others from actually dying.

Vash grew out of this by the end of the series and was less extreme in his philosphy at the end, leaving the red coat behind in the last episode. Vash is not a human being, and comes off as not wanting to involve himself in human happenings. Notice how he's always in the dessert towns and villages. The town the Insurance girls come from is very similar to an average city in any well developed country (I say well developed country now so I don't have to say it later ;)

Regardless, he doesn't believe it's his place to take human life. In his eyes, All humans are the "butterflies". They are weaker than him and are below him even though he doesn't act in the typical way a person who is or believes that they are above others act.


I am trying hard to understand this moral, but everything I think of completely justifies it as ridiculous. When pitbulls lose their minds - do you lock them up? No. You put them to sleep. Locking people up that will never gain an ounce of consciousness back - is wasting space for real people who need to be punished; knowing they actually have a conscious somewhere. There are humans who have rotted beyond the boundaries of what makes us human. They will never learn. They will never contribute. All they will do is hunt, shed blood, and persist to kill innocent people. When you sit there allowing this monster to continue - is just ignorant by all means in any definition of instinct or morals. I even bet you that if you were to face this situation for yourself, you would quickly turn into a hypocrite and end up killing a man.

You may have this pure consciousness now, but wait til you have to suffer through their psychological torture. Wait til your family member is murdered in cold blood. Wait til you are hunted down by somebody you could've finished off.


How can there be a conscience if there's no right or wrong? lol
And Knives used Legato's death to teach Vash the very thing you're saying.

Just wait..
Answers in red

I believe what the moral of Trigun is, that there's a balance to everything in life. And finding that balance is a goal that people should strive for. Not totally extreme like Vash, granting mercy to those who stabbed him in the back and then tried even after he did. And not like Knives who wrote all other existence as being a waste. The latter is alot easier for us to do.lol A simple example: A waitress takes an extra couple minutes than usual to get our food ready, we don't think "she's having a really crappy day" or "they must be short staffed/really busy". No we think "what's that ignorant ***** doing? Where's my food?!" lol you know it's true. And that's just something simple like going out to eat. Going the extra distance to be understanding and caring enough to put someone else ahead of you; kindness and courtesy are the life lessons that Trigun has to teach.
 

Alien Vision

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We will never come to an agreement. I have seperated humans and these monsters. You persist to see them all the same. I have already explained to Wanderer; that we reason in two entirely different ways. I reason with imperialism, psychology, and common sense by how I define it. You reason by using rhetor, faith, and endless ambiguity.

You cannot fix a broken window made out of glass with wooden fragments. They will never come together as one. This window that shows us what really needs to be done; will always have multiple choices. No matter how much the other side may not understand it. It will remain cracked. People will continue throwing rocks at it. They will never agree. Opinions have became a game of war. The question that really stands alone is. Can we understand another's belief while still disagreeing with them?
 

El Nino

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Wait til you are faced with this darkness you want to nurture. Wait til they play games with your life, and the lives around you. You will find out how much of a hypocrite you are.
Please try not to make assumptions about another poster's character or motivation for holding a view that they hold. Neither you nor I can really predict the future, and neither of us can say who will be proven wrong or what will happen in a person's life. I am glad that you haven't used personal insults, but in case you are unaware of it, your tone borders on abusive. Please tone it down. We can understand what you're trying to say without you asking us why we can't get your point through our (presumably thick) heads.

This world would be at peace, if it wasn't for you ''monks'' who believe in only peace. Ironic huh?
Threatening people with execution for the crime of murder is not an effective deterrent. If it were, many states and countries that allow for the death penalty would have no homicides. To my knowledge, there is no state or country with a zero homicide rate.
 
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