Legalize 8 Player Smash Stages

[W.A.C.]

As of late, certain stages (Castle Siege, Halberd, and Isle Delfino) have been getting banned from tournaments, which leaves us with about seven legal stages (FD, BF, SM, T&C, DL64, LC, & DH) and their alternatives (Omegas & Miiverse). However, there are three very good stages currently not allowed at most tournaments. These are the 8 player smash versions of Pokemon Stadium 2, Norfair, and Pyrosphere. The best way to access these stages in a competitive 1v1 setting is by adding 3 CPU's, turning handicap on, setting the handicap for CPU's to 300%, setting the clock to 7 minutes, have the players kill the CPU's, suicide the first stocks, and start at the 6 minute mark. An example of this can be seen here: [LINK] While this adds more time at tournaments, if these three stages replaced the previous three counter-pick stages, it shouldn't add more than 2-3 minutes to most sets. Not to mention these stages would bring more stage diversity to the game and enhance the meta in an exciting way.

The only downside to any of these stages is that Pyrosphere's vertical blastzones are about as big as Battlefield, so some sets could take awhile to finish on that stage or lead to time outs, which is a problem Battlefield has as a stage. But if this issue is tolerated with Battlefield, I don't quite see why it shouldn't be tolerated with Pyrosphere. It's also worth mentioning the 8 player Smash version of Duck Hunt gets rid of the ducks and the dog, which reduces randomness in matches and makes it arguably a superior version of that stage for competitive play. So if there are ever any considerations of having Duck Hunt banned, that version of that stage should be considered as a future counter-pick stage for tournaments.

With all of this information in mind, I want to start seeing these stages become legal everywhere. What can be done to increase support for these stages? Is there a way we can get TO's of major tournament weeklies and regionals on board with the idea of having these stages legalized? Can we get top and notable players with a huge following to publicly support having 8 player smash stages allowed at tournaments? What can myself and others do?

 

[Gamefreak561]

I thought doing something like 1v1 on 8 player smash would just nullify the whole stage cancel trasnformation and treat it like it is a 1v1 2v2 or free for all where the stage transform etc..

 

[Mettie7]

I'm all in favor of more usable stages, better than never ending Smashville as starter and counterpick! The only issue I see if taking an extra minute to start a match but it's literally just 1 minute, not long at all!

As a bonus, it also gives you some time for a quick button check before the match officially begins. Also need to enforce ROB lasers and Wario wafts being used very close to the 6 min mark.

 

[biribiri]

Does anyone know if having the 3 CPUs knocked out affect Lucario's Anubis mechanic for his aura? That's one possible problem I could see with these stages.

 

[FullMoon]

I'm not sure about Norfair and Pyrosphere as a competitive stage but Pokémon Stadium 2 without the transformations would be great.

 

[W.A.C.]

I'm all in favor of more usable stages, better than never ending Smashville as starter and counterpick! The only issue I see if taking an extra minute to start a match but it's literally just 1 minute, not long at all!

As a bonus, it also gives you some time for a quick button check before the match officially begins. Also need to enforce ROB lasers and Wario wafts being used very close to the 6 min mark.

I don't see the ROB laser and Wario waft thing being much of an issue as long as they're used around the 6 minute mark.

Does anyone know if having the 3 CPUs knocked out affect Lucario's Anubis mechanic for his aura? That's one possible problem I could see with these stages.

Oh, I knew nothing about that mechanic. o_O That could be an issue.

I'm not sure about Norfair and Pyrosphere as a competitive stage but Pokémon Stadium 2 without the transformations would be great.

What's wrong with the 8 player smash versions of Norfair and Pyrosphere?

 

[Zethoro]

As much as I like those stages, no. Tacking an extra minute onto every match that uses one of those three stages crushes the concept of doing tournaments in a timely manner.
Even if we did allow it I'd say Pyrosphere and Norfair shouldn't even be legal; Norfair because of its extremely unorthodox layout. This stage favors air-fighters so much it's disgusting and we already have stages that air-fighters can use as CPs.
As for Pyrosphere, it has the opposite problem in that it gives campers way too much room to fling projectiles.
Adding an extra minute to play one stage is simply not a good idea.

 

[Mettie7]

I don't see the ROB laser and Wario waft thing being much of an issue as long as they're used around the 6 minute mark.

That's exactly what I said, lol.

This stage favors air-fighters so much it's disgusting and we already have stages that air-fighters can use as CPs.
As for Pyrosphere, it has the opposite problem in that it gives campers way too much room to fling projectiles.

Isn't that the point of a counterpick though, to give yourself an advantage? They don't have to be starter stages.

Does anyone know if having the 3 CPUs knocked out affect Lucario's Anubis mechanic for his aura? That's one possible problem I could see with these stages.

Oh, I knew nothing about that mechanic. o_O That could be an issue.

What if the CPUs were just controlled by players and they just SD themselves? No need for Lucario to hit anyone.

 

[W.A.C.]

As much as I like those stages, no. Tacking an extra minute onto every match that uses one of those three stages crushes the concept of doing tournaments in a timely manner.
Even if we did allow it I'd say Pyrosphere and Norfair shouldn't even be legal; Norfair because of its extremely unorthodox layout. This stage favors air-fighters so much it's disgusting and we already have stages that air-fighters can use as CPs.
As for Pyrosphere, it has the opposite problem in that it gives campers way too much room to fling projectiles.
Adding an extra minute to play one stage is simply not a good idea.

Norfair and Pyrosphere being unorthodox isn't a bad thing, but it makes both stages qualify as counter-picks. They benefit certain character types and if a particular stage is terrible for their character, they can ban it.

What if the CPUs were just controlled by players and they just SD themselves? No need for Lucario to hit anyone.

CPU's controlled by players would require three extra GCN controllers and be a massive hassle.

 

[san.]

Played ps2 and pyrosphere in tournament. Ps2 is great while pyro is a little too big unless you plan on approaching.

 

[Teshie U]

Ps2 is already a fine CP as is, but it would be an amazing starter without the transformations.

It would be MUCH easier to just use custom stages to imitate the layout of stadium.

Pyrosphere and Norfair have pretty bad layout and would just be endless running away like kongo 64.

Peach castle honestly isn't a very bad stage when you give it a chance. Its the "tame" transformation stage that we didnt get nearly enough of in smash 4.

 

[Zethoro]

That's exactly what I said, lol.


Isn't that the point of a counterpick though, to give yourself an advantage? They don't have to be starter stages.



What if the CPUs were just controlled by players and they just SD themselves? No need for Lucario to hit anyone.

While the point of CPs is to give an advantage, there are already stages to give air fighters more of an advantage that aren't nearly as polarizing as Norfair. Same applies for Pyrosphere (these stages are, notably, Dreamland and FD respectively.)
Pyrosphere is essentially two FDs glued together with some pointless stray platforms on the sides, and Norfair is just a bunch of small platforms.
The only reason I'm so confident on this is because I originally wanted them too and tested on them to see how viable they really are and I'm absolutely sure that both stages are not a good idea.
A stage simply being flat and not having stage hazards does not make it a good competitive stage, which is why we put up with CPs like Delfino and Halberd because they aren't too bad.
I'm more concerned about Wuhu still not being legal anywhere.
Seriously, why is Wuhu not legal? The glitch was patched and it's the most tame transformation stage of them all.

 

[manrangan]

This would be fine if not for the extra minute tacked on, and having to KO the CPUs. What if you take a hit from the CPU?

 

[wizrad]

For me, Lucario is the only problem. He gets very nerfed by the three dead CPUs.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

This would be fine if not for the extra minute tacked on, and having to KO the CPUs. What if you take a hit from the CPU?

You set it to 3 stock so you can discard a stock after killing the CPUs.

Aside from the lucario problem, I like this but I don't think it'll be very viable to actually implement in a tourney. It adds a lot of extra steps to get the match going and it could be easy to overlook things, even after they've been explained to you. In that example they forgot to set the timer to 7 minutes, which could've given 6WX the advantage if he went for a time out. There's also ROB and Wario as mentioned above, and Lucario's issues with the silly aura system.

 

[Magik0722]

Remake the stages as a custom stage.

 

[manrangan]

A custom stage project would be much more effective and easy than this.

 

[Raijinken]

While I like the idea, I still think Norfair's design is, by general opinions (not my own), too odd to be legal, with most of the combat taking place on a non-base platform.

Of course, I also just think Stadium 2 (and numerous other stages) should be legal by default. At worst, it's an easy stage to duplicate via Stage Builder.

 

[Teshie U]

Norfair is far closer to legal WITH the hazards (they encourage players to actually get near each other).

 

[Raijinken]

A custom stage project would be much more effective and easy than this.

The only issue with a Custom Stage Project is how long it would take to cross-share the stages (which would be necessary to ensure parity). I fully support the idea, but short of actually banning the popular stages like Smashville, I don't think they'd see enough use to warrant the time spent hopping around and friending everyone to transfer the stages.

 

[ArikadoSD]

As much as I'd love them, they're a logistical nightmare. It's just all unnecessary and not needed, even if we get some tasty stages in return.

 

[Pazx]

Seeing so many people in this thread inadvertently suggest 2 stock and a short timer is weird.

For people saying "wow this takes so long" you have to consider that it's a single minute and these stages won't even be picked that frequently. I'm not entirely sure if I support this (PS2 is my favourite stage though) but it's nice in theory and I'd be open to it once the kinks are ironed out (Lucario?).

 

[KeithTheGeek]

The least convoluted thing I can think of for aura-dog is that, since we have to set a handicap for this anyways, maybe start either the opponent or Lucario off with a slight handicap to compensate? It's not a very clean solution, but I'm not sure what else to suggest besides maybe running 4 stocks and playing out the match with the Lucario player at 2 and the other guy at 3, while treating him as having just 2 stocks.

Anyone have any better ideas? Not that I think would matter much since I doubt very many TOs would run PS2 and/or Pyrosphere in the first place, but eh...

EDIT: Now that I'm thinking about it, how drastic of a difference does being up/down a stock make for Lucario? Would starting both players off at 10% handicap be fair enough to correct for Lucario being "ahead" in stocks?

EDIT 2: Just did a bit of preliminary testing, it seems the stock difference is enough for Lucario to be dealing around 1-2% less damage per hit, but that lack of damage does seem to add up over time. Meanwhile, adding a 10% handicap to both players seemed like Lucario was doing anywhere between 1% less to 1% more per hit. Unfortunately the handicap is handled in increments of 10, I feel like a 5% handicap to both players would look much closer to the default set-up.

I guess the question is, does the extra damage (or lack of damage) really matter that much in the long run? If Lucario doing more damage when down 10% but up 2 stocks over 3 players is a problem, then maybe Lucario would be the only character that would "need" to start at 10% handicap, with the other one left alone (unless they were also Lucario, of course). Still isn't particularly clean though, but it's a thought. I might make a video just sort of comparing different circumstances.

Final EDIT (for now): Cleaned up some of my numbers, realized they were wrong. Whoops.