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Legality Talk: Walk-Off Edges

Wander

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 26, 2008
Messages
461
Location
Southeast
In Melee, one obvious reason to ban stages with walk-off edges was Fox's ability to waveshine certain characters right off the edge for an easy kill. However, with the removal of wavedashing, such a combo is no longer possible. I'd like to hear your opinions on stages with walkoff edges in Brawl and whether or not such edges are enough to warrant a ban.

Certain characters do have chainthrows that can lead to a lost stock, and others have ways of trapping characters against the boundary line until they die, but I'm still not certain if that's cause enough to ban them all. Your thoughts?
 

Ørion

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
858
Location
Probably in front of his Wii
There are still enough bad things with walk-off edges to warrant a ban. Chain grabbing etc., and also the fact that you just can't see your character and don't know how far you have till you die.
 

Charizard92

Smash Champion
Joined
May 13, 2008
Messages
2,207
There is also the fact that it is easier to KO somebody on a walk off than an aerial stage.
 

chckn

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
972
Location
miami, Fl
walk offs like green greens need to be banned regardless of waveshining being out. cgs like dds and overpowered backthrows can lead to deaths at rediculously low percents
 

FEJunkie

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
Messages
105
Location
New York
walk offs like green greens need to be banned regardless of waveshining being out. cgs like dds and overpowered backthrows can lead to deaths at rediculously low percents
Since when has Green Greens been a walk-off O_o?

Anyway, Walk-off stages are still pretty broken. Any decent throw near the edge of the stage will be a KO. Chain grabs are easy lead ups to this. You also have things like jab and laser locks, which isn't all that hard to set up if you watch your opponent well. Heck, you don't even need all these; a forward smash or even a Ftilt can kill you.

In short, walk offs still lead to some incredibly stupid kills and will be banned in Brawl as it has been in 64 and melee.
 

peeup

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
1,618
Location
Hartford/Mass
Some genius on the stage legality thread suggested that, instead of ban several stages with walls/walkoff edges, why not just ban the techniques that make them broken? Chain-grabbing would still be allowed, but only to a certain extent--they would not be allowed to CG into a wall or off the walkoff edge. Laser-locking, though, might be a different story because not only does the victim have to be dumb enough to not get up once he gets knocked down against a falco, but it also takes skill to put the opponent in a position where it might be possible.
 

FEJunkie

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
Messages
105
Location
New York
Some genius on the stage legality thread suggested that, instead of ban several stages with walls/walkoff edges, why not just ban the techniques that make them broken? Chain-grabbing would still be allowed, but only to a certain extent--they would not be allowed to CG into a wall or off the walkoff edge. Laser-locking, though, might be a different story because not only does the victim have to be dumb enough to not get up once he gets knocked down against a falco, but it also takes skill to put the opponent in a position where it might be possible.
The thing is, it's much easier to ban stages than banning/limiting the techniques. It's not just chain grabs and locks that make walk-offs broken. Almost any attack with decent knockback can kill near the edges. While it may be true that you can just avoid the edges of the screen, it's still pretty stupid how these attacks can kill.

Banning walk-offs is a simple solution to these issues. Walk-offs are not healthy for a competitive environment simply because it turns the match into "Who can grab near the edge first". Limiting parts of a character just to make a stage only somewhat viable just hurts this environment. Not to mention it saves TO's the hassle of enforcing these rules when they can just ban a stage.
 

Rhubarbo

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 21, 2007
Messages
2,035
Most of the Brawl stages are so similar to other stages, or are so bland that banning them shouldn't upset anyone.
 

ParanoidDrone

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
4,335
Location
Baton Rouge, LA
I agree with any attack with half-decent knockback being a killer on a walkoff stage. Hell, I've KO'd with PK Fire on numerous occasions. The only walkoff I could see being legal is Bridge of Eldin, simply because it's so massive. Most other walkoff stages seem to be smaller if you consider the distance to the KO lines.
 

AlexX

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
651
Most of the Brawl stages are so similar to other stages, or are so bland that banning them shouldn't upset anyone.
Erm... What are you talking about? All of the Brawl stages are unique and have their own charm to them.
 

Heavenly Cloud

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 9, 2008
Messages
123
Location
Michigan
I would love to see Eldin Bridge a legal CP, but i doubt it will happen with so many people complaining/fearing chaingrabs. I dont feel particulary strong about other walk offs... *glares angrily at Green Hill Zone and Yoshi's Island (melee)*
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
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Jan 31, 2008
Messages
4,582
Location
Kansas City, MO
Which characters can actually use walk offs for kills as such? I know that King Dedede and Yoshi can against select characters, and Falco can at the right percentages if he starts close enough to the edge (Falco also can if they really screw up and get laser locked). I have heard some reports of Fox being able to do so with jump canceled shines, but I've only seen a video of it happening on an extreme slope. Note that no one I listed is among the best characters in the game (though several are good); in melee, the single best character in the game was the one who got better this way. I think that makes a big difference. For instance, on Bridge of Eldin, would you honestly say that King Dedede is an overall better character than Snake or Mr. Game & Watch? If he's not, then the tactic isn't the most overpowering thing on that level. Why ban something that's only of secondary worth? I'm not saying that if it was the best it would deserve banning, but if it's not the best, a ban becomes really unpalatable.

Also, consider accessibility. On Distant Planet, there's one walk off that is interrupted by rain with a slope that messes up several of the chains that lead off the stage (I am pretty sure King Dedede can't chainthrow Marth there though he still gets Donkey Kong; I alone can't really test this in more depth; it also probably messes up Yoshi's release grab on characters like Meta Knight - Falco's laser lock obviously doesn't do anything there either). On Onett, you never have to approach a walk off thanks to the cars, and the walk offs are conveniently out of the way anyway. Even if walk offs are concluded to be broken, I really don't think these two levels should be banned without far more careful review. Of course, even a level like Bridge of Eldin or Mario Circuit can use hazards to screw things up. Did you know that a King Dedede chainthrowing in the bottom area gets interrupted by cars on the upper segment of track when he's near the edges? Further, consider temporary walk offs as on Delfino Plaza and Castle Siege. It's completely plausible to simply avoid danger until these pass; they really shouldn't be lumped in with anything either.

In any case, I think they need more time to prove themselves broken. Banning stages because of hypothetical problems is a fine way to assure that the stages are never fully understood; it's better to let time to shed some light on the real potential of a stage before it is given anything but the most generous benefit of the doubt.
 

Yuna

BRoomer
BRoomer
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Sep 1, 2004
Messages
10,358
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Stockholm, Sweden
I agree with any attack with half-decent knockback being a killer on a walkoff stage. Hell, I've KO'd with PK Fire on numerous occasions. The only walkoff I could see being legal is Bridge of Eldin, simply because it's so massive. Most other walkoff stages seem to be smaller if you consider the distance to the KO lines.
Chaingrabs, laserlocks and jablocks across the stage 'til you die.

Marth and Pokémon Trainer can do it to Ness. Yoshi can do it to Wario. Falco can do it to anyone he can chaingrab well. Everyone with a jab-lock can do it. Laser-locks can do it.

King DeDeDe can do it to:
Mario
Samus
Bowser
DK

Lucas
Pit
Ice Climbers
Diddy Kong
Ganondorf
Ness
Toon Link
Ivysaur
Ike
Captain Falcon
King Dedede
Snake
Marth
Peach
Wario
Sonic
Yoshi
R.O.B
Lucario
Wolf
Link
Charizard

Probably not all of those. But most of those. Just chaingrab them 'til you run out of stage and they die off the walk-off edge.
 

peeup

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
1,618
Location
Hartford/Mass
I have to say I agree with many people in this thread, both for and against walkoffs. Yeah, they pose an easy KO for anybody with a chaingrab or a jablock or a decent throw etc. However, I agree that until walkoffs have proven to be really big problems in tournaments, some of them should be counterpick, not banned.
 
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