Ledge Trump > reverse Charge Shot guaranteed (reconsidered)

[-_ellipsis_-]

So Here's a video to demonstrate.

The general consensus was that ledge trump reverse CS was only guaranteed if you use the tether, which is kind of complicated setting it up. However, from what I can gather if you snap the ledge within a tight frame window your opponent does (as seen by dr Mario here) it seems to produce the same results as tether trumping does. I've gone through this frame by frame and personally I can't see an airdodge window available.

 

[DungeonMaster]

That's very nice, your level of execution on it is amazing. It would be good if you could get a 2nd person on a local machine to verify that frame perfect it is in fact inescapable.

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

Unfortunately local play is rather unfeasable for me atm, as my friends and i have very wonky work schedules. If anyone else wants to take a crack at it, go for it. I have a couple more videos of this. For the time being, I'm going to call it a perfect ledge trump. PLT FTW.

 

[Jiggly]

Interesting. I can see this being really big for the character :D

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

Here's another example

 

[Tumultus]

This is phenomenal. I wonder exactly how quickly you have to grab the ledge after your opponent in order for this to work properly. In these videos it seems like you're grabbing the ledge VERY quickly, so I'm curious as to how many frames of leeway exist.

 

[MegaRiff]

So are you pressing down to let go of the stage, or pressing sideways?

 

[Xygonn]

So are you pressing down to let go of the stage, or pressing sideways?

You do a half circle back as you run off the ledge to do a traditional ledge grab like in the video (the input is technically fast fall then toward the ledge). You could also do an easier to execute (but perhaps harder to time) side b canceled ledge grab where you try to shoot a missile back toward the stage as you run off. You won't shoot a missile but you will grab the ledge.

I see this as complimentary to a tether ledge trump as doing this technique vs marth, ike or a few others may be impossible.

The timing is probably pretty strict because you are kicking them off on their first actionable frame (if they haven't buffered a getup) and you are then acting on your first actionable frame for the trump.

 

[MegaRiff]

You do a half circle back as you run off the ledge to do a traditional ledge grab like in the video (the input is technically fast fall then toward the ledge). You could also do an easier to execute (but perhaps harder to time) side b canceled ledge grab where you try to shoot a missile back toward the stage as you run off. You won't shoot a missile but you will grab the ledge.

I see this as complimentary to a tether ledge trump as doing this technique vs marth, ike or a few others may be impossible.

The timing is probably pretty strict because you are kicking them off on their first actionable frame (if they haven't buffered a getup) and you are then acting on your first actionable frame for the trump.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough I'm asking about how he lets go I f the stage once he's trumped the player. Because you can press down or sideways to let go. I just can't tell which one he's doing.

 

[Xygonn]

Maybe I wasn't clear enough I'm asking about how he lets go I f the stage once he's trumped the player. Because you can press down or sideways to let go. I just can't tell which one he's doing.

Sideways. Sorry, I misread the question. Also that tap is used to reverse the charge shot. So it's tap away, jump, (return stick to center), b.

 

[MegaRiff]

Sideways. Sorry, I misread the question. Also that tap is used to reverse the charge shot. So it's tap away, jump, (return stick to center), b.

Ok, got it. O'm still occasionally getting missiles and non reverse CS. Looks like I'll have to practice it some. Thanks!

 

[E.Lopez]

...that tap is used to reverse the charge shot. So it's tap away, jump, (return stick to center), b.

So that's how that is done so quickly! I didn't realize the tap away from ledge is simultaneously used as the first input for the reverse shot. Nice to know.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I feel like bair is almost as strong, you can do it on a less strict ledge-trump, and you will not lose as much when you miss (Whiffing a charge shot is like the worst feeling)

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

I feel like bair is almost as strong, you can do it on a less strict ledge-trump, and you will not lose as much when you miss (Whiffing a charge shot is like the worst feeling)

All things considered, reverse CS puts you right back on the stage facing your opponent, so even if you miss you can still punish with an uptilt which can also kill at the ledge ridiculously early. Also, style points.

 

[Afro Smash]

^ CS momentum knocking you back on to the stage puts you in a great position even if you miss, I do find myself goin for Bair a lot more often though as there's less room for error and it's still really strong

 

[shinhed-echi]

I admit I find myself going for the Bair most of the times, but this is a great mixup too!
It's almost a natural reaction of mine. But I do find that odd occassion when my opponent flies a bit farther than the range of my Bair, so this should come in handy then.

 

[Xygonn]

Is it possible with a tightly timed tether grab and release during their 23 frames, that we could actually jump off the ledge before them and still get a trump? Best case scenario they grab frame 1, we grab frame 2, we release frame 9, they release frame 23. In that case we would have a 14 frame advantage. Dair would even be guaranteed.

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

Is it possible with a tightly timed tether grab and release during their 23 frames, that we could actually jump off the ledge before them and still get a trump? Best case scenario they grab frame 1, we grab frame 2, we release frame 9, they release frame 23. In that case we would have a 14 frame advantage. Dair would even be guaranteed.

Holy hell i didn't even think of that. That's absolutely scary. Somebody confirm if this is true or not and honor and glory go your way. I'm gonna try this for sure.

 

[KayJay]

Is it possible with a tightly timed tether grab and release during their 23 frames, that we could actually jump off the ledge before them and still get a trump? Best case scenario they grab frame 1, we grab frame 2, we release frame 9, they release frame 23. In that case we would have a 14 frame advantage. Dair would even be guaranteed.

I experimented much with tether grab trumps in the lab with a friend 2 weeks ago, D-Air does hit but it doesn't spike. B-Air and charged shot are the best options, and they are guaranteed.

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

I experimented much with tether grab trumps in the lab with a friend 2 weeks ago, D-Air does hit but it doesn't spike. B-Air and charged shot are the best options, and they are guaranteed.

Maybe it will spike with the perfect ledge trump? I'll work on it to find out, but I don't really expect different results. Thanks for the input.

 

[KayJay]

It won't. It will only spike if you delay the D-air but then the opponent can airdodge.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Yeah the d-air will hit with the non-spike (but still quite strong) hitbox. If you could somehow instantly change direction in the air you could get the spike hitbox to connect first.
I think I've said it before that as proficiency rises in the Samus trump game we have really great options for conditioning opponents. If you trump them once with say reverse CS or b-air, then they get nervous and buffer a ledge get-up option.
At which point you do the Kay-Jay patented run-off reverse charge shot which covers all ledge-get-up options. It's a true 50/50 and extremely strong.
You can even have the reverse charge shot graze the stage to cover the ledge hang option, and before running to the edge drop a bomb at their roll distance to provoke a (fatal) second guess.

 

[Marm']

If you could somehow instantly change direction in the air you could get the spike hitbox to connect first.

How about this?

Out of a ledge trump, ILWJ to d-air ? Possible?

 

[DungeonMaster]

Hmm... now you have me thinking... Maybe... HMMMM.....!

Edit: Yep. I think it's possible!

 

[Xygonn]

The inputs on that will be tough. ILWJ to dair after a tether recovery...

 

[Seniks]

The inputs on that will be tough. ILWJ to dair after a tether recovery...

Someone please make a video trying this!

 

[Marm']

Well after some testing, if you go sideway after the tether ledge trump you can perfectly land a D-air.

It just needs to be frame perfect, test yourself in the lab with 2/3 or 1/2 speed and you'll see that the CPU cannot jump once he's trump. No need to ILWJ.

 

[Xygonn]

Well after some testing, if you go sideway after the tether ledge trump you can perfectly land a D-air.

It just needs to be frame perfect, test yourself in the lab with 2/3 or 1/2 speed and you'll see that the CPU cannot jump once he's trump. No need to ILWJ.

Do we actually leave the ledge before the other character? Man, I'm gonna have to hit the lab after work today.

 

[Marm']

Nop, at the exact same time

 

[Xygonn]

Nop, at the exact same time

So do we reduce the buffer time they have to getup off the ledge if we trump a normal grab with a tether grab?

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

Holy hell if this is true that means Samus would have a kill setup at like 15% lol

 

[Marm']

I'll make a video for it soon. All I can say is that it's all about timing and going side instead of down after the tether trump.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Also for those people testing (I can't due to work...) keep in mind that we've recently found in the true combo thread aerial b-air ->b-air is a true combo if you sourspot (maybe against a big hurtbox target?). It's not detailed yet in the list but it's just above magic for the hitstun to work out, maybe 5-10%. You can also go into b-air -> reverse charge shot as a tight string and someone somewhere is going to pull of a really sexy b-air->b-air -> rev CS string out of a trump... I can just feel it....
You might need a fastfaller, like falcon or D3, not sure if it all works out but it would be cool.

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/37vq29/smash_4_ledge_trump_cancel_via_wall_jump/.compact

We should be mindful of this, guys